The Macedonian Cause

[AMHRC]

Happy either way

As I said SoM, I meant to have the word ethnic there myself - we use it often when talking about Macedonians in Pirin and Egej; though in this context, it may not be needed.

We are happy for the majority to decide. There is the argument that on a citizenship level, all the inhabitants of the Republic of Macedonia, are in fact Macedonians...and therefore it is better to have the word "ethnic", though as I said - happy to read what others think.

cheers.

[UMDiaspora.org]

Moc

Fine SoM, but 1) through 5) above don't really need "unique" ... I think it is superfluous.

Ensuring the absolute recognition, acknowledgement and acceptance by the International Community of;

1) the national, ethno-cultural and historic name of Macedonia,
2) the Macedonian people, language and identity
3) the Macedonian culture, symbols and folklore
4) the Macedonian ancestry, heritage and history in its entirety
5) the Macedonian Orthodox Church

... still reads fine.

Regarding the MOC, we should be more specific. The U.S., Australia, Canada, Germany, and France to our knowledge recognize, acknowledge and accept the existence of the Macedonian Orthodox Church, since there are active MOC communities in these countries. In these countries there is separation of church and state. What we should stress is the freedom of religion for all Macedonians, and their religious institutions wherever they may reside, regardless what religion. In Albania, Macedonians have their own churches but only priests from the Albanian Orthodox Church can serve in the churches (two of them are Macedonians who are ordained by the Albanian Orthodox Church). In Bulgaria, Serbia, and Greece, there is no MOC. In Austria, the MOC is not allowed to be registered because the Greek Orthodox Church is not allowing it.

A separate paragraph in the document should be devoted to the MOC entirely.

Here is a text that may help with the text, from the UMD petition from 2005:

· We urge the International Community to pressure the European Community, especially the governments of Greece, Serbia-Montenegro, Bulgaria, and Albania, along with their ecclesiastical authorities, to recognize the Macedonian Orthodox Church and Jewish-Macedonians in order to preserve the right to freedom of religion. We encourage restoration of old, and the building of new, Macedonian Orthodox churches and Macedonian-Jewish synagogues within their countries, and allowing the use of the Macedonian language during worship.

[UMDiaspora.org]

unique

RtG, how about this:



What do you reckon?

Unique is not necessary as there is no other Macedonian Orthodox Church, no other historical name Macedonia, no other Macedonian language, etc...every culture, every identity, every nation is unique.

[indigen]

Fine SoM, but 1) through 5) above don't really need "unique" ... I think it is superfluous.

Ensuring the absolute recognition, acknowledgement and acceptance by the International Community of;

1) the national, ethno-cultural and historic name of Macedonia,
2) the Macedonian people, language and identity
3) the Macedonian culture, symbols and folklore
4) the Macedonian ancestry, heritage and history in its entirety
5) the Macedonian Orthodox Church

... still reads fine.

RTG, I think you are on the ball and I second your suggestions.

Appreciations to ROGI, SOM, AMHRC and ALL the other contributors for your efforts in this project.

Cheers

[Soldier of Macedon]

I have also replaced 'establishing' with 'ensuring' in the first sentence of the document, as the Macedonian state has already been established.

Ensuring the Republic of Macedonia is a free, democratic, independent and sovereign state, and the nation-state and home of the Macedonian people, culture, language and identity.

Is a reference to all the citizens of Macedonia required at this point or not? I have tranferred the international rights section from the second to the fist sentence, which now looks like the below:

Ensuring the Republic of Macedonia is a free, democratic, independent and sovereign state that guarantees internationally recognised freedoms and rights to all its citizens; is the nation-state of the Macedonian people; and is the home of the Macedonian people, culture, language and identity.

Ensuring the Republic of Macedonia is a safe, stable, economically prosperous and abundant state, which cares and provides for the health and well-being of all its citizens; and provides all its citizens with opportunities for finding love, establishing a family, higher education, personal development, economic prosperity and the overall pursuit of happiness.

Ensuring the absolute recognition, acknowledgement and acceptance by the International Community of the unique;

1) national, ethno-cultural and historic name of Macedonia,
2) Macedonian people, language and identity
3) Macedonian culture, symbols and folklore
4) Macedonian ancestry, heritage and history in its entirety
5) Macedonian Orthodox Church

Does reference need to be made in the first or second paragraph about Macedonia being the home of all its citizens?

We are happy for the majority to decide. There is the argument that on a citizenship level, all the inhabitants of the Republic of Macedonia, are in fact Macedonians...and therefore it is better to have the word "ethnic", though as I said - happy to read what others think.

I see your point AMHRC, I think that there is enough distinction between Macedonians in the sense of citizenship and the Macedonian people in the ethno-cultural-national sense. For example, ethnic Albanians from Macedonia could be called 'Macedonians' based strictly on their citizenship, but ethnic Albanians from Macedonia could not pass with a description such as 'the Macedonian people'. What do you think?

[Risto the Great]

RtG, how about this:



What do you reckon?

Much prefer the use of "unique" that way SoM.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Unique is not necessary as there is no other Macedonian Orthodox Church, no other historical name Macedonia, no other Macedonian language, etc...every culture, every identity, every nation is unique.

Good point, I will get rid of the unique part, thanks for the other suggestions as well, let's see how they can be incorporated.

Much prefer the use of "unique" that way SoM.

Just noticed this comment. I got rid of it all together after the point made by UMDiaspora, you ok with that or have another suggestion?

[indigen]

T

I also see Indigen's point, however indigenous could also refer to Vlachs or Gypsies as they have no other home but Macedonia, while 'Ethnic Macedonians' is annoying sometimes as it is still a prefix that, when generally speaking about the Macedonian people, is not required.

How about just the 'Macedonian people', as in the below:

SOM, Ethnic Roma have many other homes and originate from India and the Ethnic Vlachs also have many homes and both are not Macedonians and thus can not be Indigenous Macedonians. Unless one subscribes to the "Slav" mass invasion theory, Macedonian indigenity is perfectly acceptable assertion.

[UMDiaspora.org]

Recommendation - use ethnic Macedonian national origin, ethnic Macedonian national identity, ethnic Macedonian national heritage, etc...

As for indigenous, please read the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous People: http://www.un.org/esa/socdev/unpfii/...s/DRIPS_en.pdf

[Soldier of Macedon]

Indigen/UMDiaspora.org,

Is 'Macedonian people' insufficient? Do we really require any prefixes? Even if they are required in some instances, I don't think we should make a habit out of using them unless absolutely necessary.

I think 'ethnic Macedonian national ------' is too congested. As for indigenous, read the below:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_peoples

The term indigenous peoples can be used to describe any ethnic group of people who inhabit a geographic region with which they have the earliest known historical connection, alongside more recent immigrants who have populated the region and may be greater in number.

[AMHRC]

It's debatable

It's all quite debatable SoM; I think in this context that you could get by without the word ethnic, though its usage would add clarity.

Indigenous, is also a tricky word perhaps best avoided. When does one become indigenous? After how many generations? One could argue that we mean the people before the recent Pontian settlements in Egej etc. Though I think it lacks clarity, because it is not a clearly defined and agreed upon notion - so I know what you are saying Indigen; though I think that it is best left out. "Ethnic" on the other hand, while it is still a very debated term, in this context clearly refers to a unique consciously unified cultural grouping - only the most hardened pedant would argue against this.

So SoM, Risto and Indigen; this has been an interesting discussion and I have enjoyed connecting - I guess I am saying I like having the word ethnic, but I think we can in this context, get by without it, if that it is how most people feel.


Cheers,

AMHRC.

P.S. Majkata, ke me istroshite - moram da ja kosam trevata tuka i imam nekoj drugi raboti. SoM, gledam deka Osiris zapochna da uchestvuva pak...modum za bozhik.

[AMHRC]

A mix like "ethnic Macedonian national" is too messy in my opinion and really a term like "ethno-national" (which is how many would view it) has connotations that have a very unpleasant history - it is linked to ethnic cleansing campaigns etc. Really, such a mix needs to be avoided, it will almost certainly be misinterpreted.

[Prolet]

Majkata, ke me istroshite - moram da ja kosam trevata tuka i imam nekoj drugi raboti. SoM, gledam deka Osiris zapochna da uchestvuva pak...modum za bozhik.

Hahahahaha Napi se edna bira taman po ubo ke ti dojdi LOL

With all jokes aside, keep up the good work and its amazing how many ideas can come up when everyone put their heads together.

[Soldier of Macedon]

It's all quite debatable SoM; I think in this context that you could get by without the word ethnic, though its usage would add clarity.

Indigenous, is also a tricky word perhaps best avoided. When does one become indigenous? After how many generations? One could argue that we mean the people before the recent Pontian settlements in Egej etc. Though I think it lacks clarity, because it is not a clearly defined and agreed upon notion - so I know what you are saying Indigen; though I think that it is best left out. "Ethnic" on the other hand, while it is still a very debated term, in this context clearly refers to a unique consciously unified cultural grouping - only the most hardened pedant would argue against this.

So SoM, Risto and Indigen; this has been an interesting discussion and I have enjoyed connecting - I guess I am saying I like having the word ethnic, but I think we can in this context, get by without it, if that it is how most people feel.


Cheers,

AMHRC.

I think I will leave it at 'Macedonian people' unless we get a concensus otherwise, I think it is sufficient and clinical enough. Do you think that is definitive enough based on what I wrote previously?

P.S. Majkata, ke me istroshite - moram da ja kosam trevata tuka i imam nekoj drugi raboti. SoM, gledam deka Osiris zapochna da uchestvuva pak...modum za bozhik.

[AMHRC]

Looking Good

SoM, it's looking good and I like Risto's way of looking at it; as something we can continue to refine for a little while longer anyway.

Prolet, srekjen si ti denes ako iamsh vreme za pivo - ama jas sega moram da pravam nekoi drugi raboti.


Prijatno mi beshe.