A response from Vodenka

[Pelister]

Fact is Macedonians are being persecuted both sides of the border, and beyond.

The sooner all Macedonians realize they are in the same boat, the better for us.

Its convincing the Macedonians in the Republic not to sell out the rest of us - thats the problem.

[Bratot]

How could the Egejci have nothing to do with the Macedonians of the Republic if the language, culture and traditions are the same?

I'm against of forming a political party by the aegean Macedonians that will propagate separate official dentity (ethnic) from the Macedonians living in the Republic.

The only way to won the name issue is to be united and focused on the same goal.
Only by preserving the Macedonian ethnic identity in the Republic will give proper rights to the agean Macedonians and every single Macedonian outside the Republic.

Greece denies our ethnicity motivated only from reason - the aegean Macedonians.
Why? - Because they will crush the Greek myth of purity and will unveal many things that were kept silent and ignored far from the publicity, in Greece and world.
If there are ethnic Macedonians living inside Greece that will automatically cut off the land intruders from claiming and falsifying the history and Greek descend of the Macedonians.

If the Greeks manage to convince everyone that their "Greek-Macedonians" are the only rightful descendants of the Macedonians(who were "greeks") it will mean - loosing tour right to be Macedonians in full meaning and to continue the historical line.

So what we need to do?

To promote those aegean Macedonians living in Greece, Bulgaria, Albania, Serbia and all around the world, asking for the guaranteed human rights as a separate ethnic group within and out of the Republic.

If some political party of OUR ppl in the aegean don't accept this policy of one official Macedonian identity in order to preserve the Macedonian ethnic identity of the Republic and seek to be incorporated on a different ethnic basis in the Greek system because the Grkomani don't feel comfortable with being as same as the ppl fighting for their basic human rights, it will give another argument to the Greeks and their schauvinistic policy to DENY the Macedonian ethnicity in the Republic.

I think you are being dramatic and I am being realistic.

And you do this from a perspective where you have not frequented the region as many times as I have and not been able to gauge the mentality over there as frequently as I have. If you go there perhaps 100 times, you might have 1/100th of an understanding of their mentality. Perhaps then you won't be so Republic-centric and will then form your opinions on achievable outcomes in Greece.

You seem pretty arogant about this matter and too much selfconcentrated without any single idea where this will bring us.

And I don't think I'm alone here seeing your mistake, it's just surprising how sure you are that the awakened agean Macedonians will accept what "your" offer and they will agreed to be some new indetity apart from the Macedonians in the Republic.

To work on a cultural awakening you don't need a political party.

[vodenka]

Hallo everybody!
I was reading all the posts on this thread and I would like to explain a few things, as it seems there are some misunderstandings.
When I said that we have to work with the Macedonians in the Egejska and try to awaken their dormant Macedonian consciousness, I did not have in mind the problem with Greece on the name issue.
First of all, I must make it clear that I am against any name change of the Republic of Macedonia. I know that I and the Macedonians in Egejska are not in a position to preserve the name of Macedonia in the Republic, as we are not citizens of that State: the only people who have this right are the Macedonian citizens. For us it is imperative that the name must be preserved as we use to call ourselves Macedonians and we will keep doing it even if the Republic decides to change it(God forbids!).
If the republic of Macedonia decides to change the name into, for example, Northern Macedonia, the citizens and the ethnicity of that State will be Northern Macedonians, so in this case we should be the ethnic minority of Northern Macedonians, right? Does anybody in this forum believe that there are many Macedonians in Egejska that will agree to be named Northern Macedonians, so that they could be part of the Northern Macedonian nation? They all will still be Macedonians but they would not belong to the Northern Macedonian nation and they will only be a small ethnic group, close to extension. And that is exactly what Greece wants. But if the Macedonian people in the Republic keeps the name MACEDONIA (plain) and of course the ethnicity and nationality of the Macedonians in Macedonia will be MACEDONIAN, then we (Macedonians in Greece) automatically will be considered part of the Macedonian nation (not all the inhabitants of the Egejska, of course, but only the people that willingly will declare MACEDONIANS: the Hellenized Macedonians or Vlachs or Madjiri they will avoid like hell to use the term "Macedonian" for themselves).
Now I can explain my point: the day that the Republic of Macedonia will be recognized as such, the 60% (as Rogi estimated, which is not far from the true number) of Macedonians in Egejska what will be? If we do not accept them in the Macedonian family with their diversity (they speak also Greek, they go to the "buzukia" with their Greek friends to have fun, they already have adopted some traditions from Greeks, due also to the many mixed marriages), they will become 100% Greeks and probably harder grkmani than today. But if we manage to make them know their local history, their local language and make them feel proud about this, there are excellent possibilities that they will understand were they belong, as Macedonians. The final choice will be theirs, of course, nothing is guaranteed, but if we do not give a chance to this people, we actually will not give history a chance to correct some of the mistakes and injustice done to our people in the past century.

[Bratot]

Hallo everybody!
I was reading all the posts on this thread and I would like to explain a few things, as it seems there are some misunderstandings.
When I said that we have to work with the Macedonians in the Egejska and try to awaken their dormant Macedonian consciousness, I did not have in mind the problem with Greece on the name issue.
First of all, I must make it clear that I am against any name change of the Republic of Macedonia. I know that I and the Macedonians in Egejska are not in a position to preserve the name of Macedonia in the Republic, as we are not citizens of that State: the only people who have this right are the Macedonian citizens. For us it is imperative that the name must be preserved as we use to call ourselves Macedonians and we will keep doing it even if the Republic decides to change it (God forbids!). If the republic of Macedonia decides to change the name into, for example, Northern Macedonia, the citizens and the ethnicity of that State will be Northern Macedonians, so in this case we should be the ethnic minority of Northern Macedonians, right? Does anybody in this forum believe that there are many Macedonians in Egejska that will agree to be named Northern Macedonians, so that they could be part of the Northern Macedonian nation? They all will still be Macedonians but they would not belong to the Northern Macedonian nation and they will only be a small ethnic group, close to extension.
.

Hi Vodenka, nice to see you here!

All Macedonians will remain addressing themself as Macedonians even if the worse scenario come true.

But following the Greek intentions and their logic, they will make sure to obligate the state and all institution to avoid using alone the term "Macedonian" in any form, for describing the nation, religion, language, culture&tradition and so on.

So we will share your destiny in Egejska, but with a cruel punishment - to be denied by ourselfs inside.

And you know what gonna happen with you in the Egejska?

You naturally will not accept to be some "Northern" ethnicity, but you wil be still denied as "Macedonians" in Greece.

Simply - the "Macedonian" ethnicity WONT exist.

And that is exactly what Greece wants.

Of course.

But if the Macedonian people in the Republic keeps the name MACEDONIA (plain) and of course the ethnicity and nationality of the Macedonians in Macedonia will be MACEDONIAN, then we (Macedonians in Greece) automatically will be considered part of the Macedonian nation (not all the inhabitants of the Egejska, of course, but only the people that willingly will declare MACEDONIANS: the Hellenized Macedonians or Vlachs or Madjiri they will avoid like hell to use the term "Macedonian" for themselves).

If only we won this name issue, I guarantee that it will be overturn for all Macedonians.

We will be able to secure to fortify the Macedonian ethnic identity as members of the EU/NATO institutions and to demand higher status of our Macedonian ethnic minority everywhere not only Greece.

The boundaries will be down and the process of unifying the Macedonian ethnical-culturological element ( without changing the borders).
That synergy will cause a flow of influence on those Hellenized Macedonians and strengthen the communication among the ppl from the both countries.

Even the regular Greeks will start to realize the reality and I believe that those stereotips will fail finally and no more forcing schauvinistic policy.

Now I can explain my point: the day that the Republic of Macedonia will be recognized as such, the 60% (as Rogi estimated, which is not far from the true number) of Macedonians in Egejska what will be? If we do not accept them in the Macedonian family with their diversity (they speak also Greek, they go to the "buzukia" with their Greek friends to have fun, they already have adopted some traditions from Greeks, due also to the many mixed marriages), they will become 100% Greeks and probably harder grkmani than today. But if we manage to make them know their local history, their local language and make them feel proud about this, there are excellent possibilities that they will understand were they belong, as Macedonians. The final choice will be theirs, of course, nothing is guaranteed, but if we do not give a chance to this people, we actually will not give history a chance to correct some of the mistakes and injustice done to our people in the past century

A question, do you say that recognizing Macedonia as such will have a negative impact on those 60% Hellenized Macedonians?

I gave you my view upper in this post of how the things will develop if such thing occure and I believe it will have totally positive influence.

Indirectly, from what you say, in order to help those Hellenized Macedonian to break their mind barriers and provide them cultural awakening, the recognition of the Republic as Macedonia shouldn't really happen...


Meanwhile, you can still work on enlightening those Hellenized Macedonians with the approach you suggest without interference of the interest of solving the Macedonian "question" - the name, nation and the language.

Pozdrav,
Mihail

[makedonin]

I can't agree that if for example the Republic of Macedonia be forced to change it's constitutional name in North Macedonia, that my or anyone else ethnicity or Nationality will change in North Macedonian nation or ethnicity. That is more than unlikely.

I and my children and I think I this is how any other Macedonian feels, will remain Macedonian.

Even if they forbid the name Macedonian by ethnicity with verdict, this won't change.

[Bratot]

That's an absurd makedonin.

Than why we are struggling for preserving the name?

If something like that occure we gonna share the destiny of the Macedonians in Greece - nowdays.


It's clear to everyone how we declare and feel -but thats not the issue - they wan't to use every method to prevent us to do that.

If the name and our self declaring wasn't such big problem, why so huge pressure and insisting to chage it?

They would like us to think like this, that changing the name wont cost us nothing since we will remain Macedonians behind the door and we could even benefit from changing the name.

[vodenka]

A question, do you say that recognizing Macedonia as such will have a negative impact on those 60% Hellenized Macedonians?
I mean if the Republic of Macedonia will be recognized as Republic of Northern Macedonia. The 60% of Macedonians in Greece will be trapped by the Greek propaganda that will have the possibility to continue brainwashing them that they are the REAL Macedonians (Greek) as the Northern Macedonians are some "barbarians" who have nothing to do with Alexander the great, etc, etc. But if the Macedonian nation is recognized through the Republic of Macedonia and in the same time our people are not willing to abandon their Macedonian name and identity (even if seen as local), the Greek propaganda cannot go on.

Indirectly, from what you say, in order to help that Hellenized Macedonian to break their mind barriers and provide them cultural awakening, the recognition of the Republic as Macedonia shouldn't really happen...
No, I am saying exactly the opposite. But till the Republic of Macedonia manages to get recognized with its constitutional name in the UN and everywhere (even if Greece still refuses to do so), we should start to work with people in Egejska, little by little, by helping them to know first of all what it means to be a Macedonian in Egejska and make them be proud of it, without a connection to greekness or to politics about the name issue with Greece. Of course, we cannot start by telling them that they belong to the nation of the Republic of Macedonia because their first reaction will be: "Are you trying to send us over the border? We are not "Skopiani". And this is a reality we have to face. When I said once to a Macedonian friend of mine why we Macedonians in Egejska do not try to celebrate Iliden, he answered to me: "this is not our history, this is the history of the other side of the border!" This is ignorance, is not a matter of ethnic consciousness.

Makedonin, of course we will always be Macedonians, but it will be better to be recognized by our official name by the international community. Otherwise our enemies will play games with us, for ever.

[Bratot]

A question, do you say that recognizing Macedonia as such will have a negative impact on those 60% Hellenized Macedonians?
I mean if the Republic of Macedonia will be recognized as Republic of Northern Macedonia. The 60% of Macedonians in Greece will be trapped by the Greek propaganda that will have the possibility to continue brainwashing them that they are the REAL Macedonians (Greek) as the Northern Macedonians are some "barbarians" who have nothing to do with Alexander the great, etc, etc. But if the Macedonian nation is recognized through the Republic of Macedonia and in the same time our people are not willing to abandon their Macedonian name and identity (even if seen as local), the Greek propaganda cannot go on.

Indirectly, from what you say, in order to help that Hellenized Macedonian to break their mind barriers and provide them cultural awakening, the recognition of the Republic as Macedonia shouldn't really happen...
No, I am saying exactly the opposite. But till the Republic of Macedonia manages to get recognized with its constitutional name in the UN and everywhere (even if Greece still refuses to do so), we should start to work with people in Egejska, little by little, by helping them to know first of all what it means to be a Macedonian in Egejska and make them be proud of it, without a connection to greekness or to politics about the name issue with Greece. Of course, we cannot start by telling them that they belong to the nation of the Republic of Macedonia because their first reaction will be: "Are you trying to send us over the border? We are not "Skopiani". And this is a reality we have to face. When I said once to a Macedonian friend of mine why we Macedonians in Egejska do not try to celebrate Iliden, he answered to me: "this is not our history, this is the history of the other side of the border!" This is ignorance, is not a matter of ethnic consciousness.

Makedonin, of course we will always be Macedonians, but it will be better to be recognized by our official name by the international community. Otherwise our enemies will play games with us, for ever.

Ок, I'm glad we finally came to agreement.

I needed to hear concrete answer.
Thank You.

[makedonin]

That's an absurd makedonin.

Than why we are struggling for preserving the name?

If something like that occure we gonna share the destiny of the Macedonians in Greece - nowdays.


It's clear to everyone how we declare and feel -but thats not the issue - they wan't to use every method to prevent us to do that.

If the name and our self declaring wasn't such big problem, why so huge pressure and insisting to chage it?

They would like us to think like this, that changing the name wont cost us nothing since we will remain Macedonians behind the door and we could even benefit from changing the name.

I ain't for change of the name, BUT, Macedonians existed with or with out state, or you a see it otherwise?

[Bratot]

I ain't for change of the name, BUT, Macedonians existed with or with out state, or you a see it otherwise?

Why are you putting some weird connotation?

Ya makedonin, I believe we are invented in 1945

P.S. It's not about a STATE it's about the self identification with a NAME directly connected to our native land.

[makedonin]

Ya makedonin, I believe we are invented in 1945

Really ? I knew it!

P.S. It's not about a STATE it's about the self identification with a NAME directly connected to our native land.

Thanx for the Information, I didn't know that, hmmmm.

See, is it your call of not changing the name? I hope so, so we have that one done....

BUT, was it the peoples call to get the fuzzy name FYROM in the fking UN ?

The name issue is not about justice and right but about power, money and the stuff accompanying that.

I ain't saying that we are powerless, but arguing between eachother does not makes us stronger (we are strong thus far)

I would like to ask you something.

Will these debate you are raging with the others be in anyway fruitfull for the name dispute and the Macedonians.

I hope you are Politician, who can do something with it. If so, please tell me so, and I will seal my mouth shut.

Otherwise, I don't see a point in this discussion, specially in a Public Forum, it is more for the Parlament or certain instituttions

[Bratot]

Probably I don't understand the purpose of this forum

Or maybe I like to share my opinion on this mater?

By avoiding talking about this problem the situation from 1993-95 will repeat to us, because the politicians will think they can easily manipulate with the ppl.
I'm sure they can through the media they own, but at least they cannot censure the internet space where we can freely share opinions and confront our ideas.

More ppl read, write, discuss and share among themself right?

That's how at least the internet community can influe in educating the other ppl and to implement that knowledge in real life and with discussion with other ppl.


That's how the protest of the YouTube - Youth Knows- Say Macedoniahappen before the NATO summit which lead to the massive protest of 30.000 ppl on the YouTube - Macedonians protest 27.02.2008 - PELA Square - Macedoniaand it was the 3th biggest concentration of ppl on a protest in the history of independent Macedonia.

While all media were boycotting us, we made to gather and organize the ppl using only the internet.

I am in that organization with couple of other ppl that I also met online on a forum like this.

So yes makedonin, don't underestemate what we discuss here. Alright?

[makedonin]

Probably I don't understand the purpose of this forum
.............

I am in that organization with couple of other ppl that I also met online on a forum like this.
So yes makedonin, don't underestemate what we discuss here. Alright?

well it may only be me, who knows. I am getting older

I won't interfere anymore I will grant you as much as that.......

PS. Tumb up for the organization, it was really spectacular.....

[Risto the Great]

When I said once to a Macedonian friend of mine why we Macedonians in Egejska do not try to celebrate Iliden, he answered to me: "this is not our history, this is the history of the other side of the border!" This is ignorance, is not a matter of ethnic consciousness.

Vodenka, thank you for joining our little discussion (about you ). The statement above would probably offend most Macedonians from the Republic. But if they read it over about 5000 times they would realise that the Egejci who say such things are merely victims of Greek propaganda. Should the "pure" Macedonians punish them because they are victims? Of course not. We should help them in any way that assists in achieving closer ties between the estranged communities.

Again, thanks for joining. and please consider this a place that supports initiatives to increase Macedonian awareness and cultural reawakening in Greece (and anywhere else for that matter).

[Spartan]

I see you guys have your north, south rivalries as well...