A response from Vodenka

[Bratot]

Bratot, you never defined "cultural awakening" even though I asked you to.
I will assume you accept my definition.
I completely agree that the "motor" for Macedonians needs to be in the Republic. It is not there now. Simple.

Yes, I accept the definition which you gave. And I also explained what should be done:

If I say to you, that the cultural awakening first should be applied in the Republic, to insert a huge dose of Macedonian pride, educating the ppl about the history matter, to teach the ppl to appreciate what they have and to defend it.

There is no higher philosophy in defining the "cultural awakening".

If you insist to hear my understanding of the cultural awakening I can just add that this awakening should be actually building of a Macedonian cultural awarness.

To learn more about their parents, people, land and history.

I also understand that within any culture, peoples values, behaviour and beliefs can vary considerably.

Bulding a strong Macedonian cultural awareness will help us recognise that we are all shaped by our same Macedonian background, to feel that we are one.

It was my duty to ask you about your understanding of that process, since you contradict yourself by supporting Vodenka approach and talking about this "awakening".

Misinterpretations of "cultural awakening" in the way Vodenka suggested, I will quote her again:

All the propaganda of Vinozito is based on the idea that Macedonians are a minority of a "foreign" nation (something like the Albanians in Macedonia) but our people do not like this as they do not like to loose their local identity in favor of the identity of the Macedonians of the Republic of Macedonia.

She honestly doesn't really seem to understand what kind of a damage is doing.

If there are NO Macedonians in the Republic, there will be NO Macedonians elsewhere.

We should stress on the similarities among all the Macedonian groups and work on that and not try to make "homogeneity" with one imposed official identity for all the Macedonians.

How many Macedonians groups we can define, since we are aware that her approach will mean that Macedonians in Canada, Australia, Europe and around the world, the Macedonians in Greece, Bulgaria, Albania,Serbia and those living in the Republic are (pay attention) SIMILAR but they don't accept one official Macedonian identity.

Similarites I have with Serbians, with Bulgarians even with the Irish ppl I can find similarities, with the Russians, Polish, Croats and so on.

This similarities can be based on a cultural, language, religion, regional or historical basis.

And I think Vodenka, doesn't understand what she is suggesting. I think her perception is corrupted since she doesn't see the Macedonians from the Republic as ppl from her own kind.

If she lets say focuse on building and promoting a new ethnic/national identity apart from the Macedonians in the Republic it will be same if she would just accept the Greek claim of "Greek-Macedonians" apart from the Macedonians in the Republic.

And our cause is defeated once for good.

Vodenka talked about language. You say I have an aversion to it? Not really... it is easier for me because I know English really well. But the modern language sounds quite foreign to the Macedonians in Greece. You do not appear to accept this. I am saying this is a reality that can be ignored if you like. But it will be at the peril of achieving the awareness we have discussed.

Yes, you talk as you have an aversion to the language in the republic.
On the other hand I am aware of the dialects and differences among us and the aegean Macedonians but I fully accept them as they speak and it doesn't bother me at all.
The differences you are trying to point out have been there for centuries, as the Macedonian speech was evolving and surviving in many regional Macedonian dialects.

The same amount of difference you can find in the Strumicki dialect and Kumanovo, or Skopje and Bitola and Ohrid or Gevgelija...
Thats the specifics of our language.

And we all speak the same language and belong to the same ethnicity/nationality - Macedonian.

Many Egejci go to Macedonia, I am not sure why you believe this is not the case. If the train line from Lerin to Bitola is ever re-opened, it will be crazy! But I have gone over the border. You should hear those guards from Greece ... "Why do you want to go over to that shithole of a country?" Guard walks away and looks all official and writes details down about you .... then listen to the guards in Macedonia "What do you want here?". Who needs the bullshit? ... drink another rakija in the selo and don't worry about it.

Because is not the case, simple. We have only a contact with Lerin to be honest and not with the rest of the Aegeans.

What you said

Who needs the bullshit? ... drink another rakija in the selo and don't worry about it

..again you make a huge mistake.
Huge as the universum. I gave you much more reasons that stand in front of the Macedonians in the Republic, what will happen if they accept your advice. "Who needs the bullshit..?"???

You are not aware of it, but you are going in a direction of total division of Macedonian core.

You said you were not concerned about the Grkomani. I am not sure how your intent could be interpreted any other way. If we follow your idea above, we take the strong Macedonians and show them how to do it. Correct? Who is we? How well do we know our target market? Who should we ask? The people that live there of course.

I said everything in the time. I don't abandon anyone, but first I will focuse to help those Macedonians who are awakened in some degree and work with them. They are my only hope, because in practice we have only them on our side.

That's why I told you how the strategy should be implemented.

Stage one: strengthening the Macedonian element in the republic and to set them in motion of working for Macedonian cause.

Stage two goes inline with stage one: strengthening the Macedonian element in Greece and giving them full support, creating a strong synergy.

Stage three is taking on a offensive on all fields and areas, such as lobbying, fininacing and promoting for the Macedonian cause.

Stage four can come after the 3 stages before are achieved or at least in a process and it will enable us to secure, to fortify the Macedonian identity for good.

Stage five should be a separate work that should be done in a economic progress of the Republic and that would mean: creating a new shipping port in Albania,Montenegro, Bulgaria or Turkey. Bulding a railway from Albanian coast to the Bulgarian border.
A new airport in eastern Macedonia.
I will stop here for now.

There is a lot of things that can be discussed right now, but it's enough if I stop here.


Considering the Grkomani, they aren't our allies unfortunatelly and faster you accept it, better for you, since they will not stand on our side.
I will be happy if they will be only observers instead of active resistance on the Greek side.

[tzole]

Tzole appears to support Vinozito but can't vote for them.
This is coming from an (apparent) patriot.

How will we entice people who know there is a distinction between Greeks and Macedonians but are less patriotic?

Wake up!

Again mistake!!! I vote for Vinozito but I think someone who knows what he is must do more things,for example to say openly what you are.

[Rogi]

If there are NO Macedonians in the Republic, there will be NO Macedonians elsewhere.

What do you mean by this? Macedonians have existed, do exist and will exist, regardless of whether we have our own nation-state or not in the independent Republic of Macedonia.


I think what Vodenka is trying to suggest, is something similar to the way we Macedonians exist in the Diaspora.

For example, I live in Australia and I may therefore be considered an Australian national or an 'Australian' by nationality* (i.e. the nation-state which is my home is Australia). Day to day, I also speak/use the English language more than I speak/use the Macedonian language.

This doesn't make me an "Avstralianofil"

My ethnicity is Macedonian and that remains regardless of whether there is a Republic of Macedonia or not, whilst here in Australia I am able to learn and speak the Macedonian language freely and I am also free to maintain my Macedonian culture and traditions.

Now apply this in the Aegean part of Macedonia where the largest portion of the ethnic Macedonians (by blood) do not speak the Macedonian language and are loyal citizens of Greece.

It is this portion of Macedonians which Vodenka wants to target (the ones who are completely aware of the entire truth do not need to be preached to, they already seek cultural-unification with the Macedonians from the Republic).

This large portion of all ethnic Macedonians (by blood) in the Aegean part of Macedonia (making up perhaps 60% of all) that Vodenka is talking about, are citizens of Greece and they are (in that they consider themselves as such) Greek nationals or Greeks by nationality, while they understand that they are not originally, culturally, and linguistically, the same as the 'real Greek' from Athens, etc.

They know they are different culturally and that there's a difference between them and the Greeks, they also know if they are 'locals' (some may even say Macedonian), or 'prosfigi', or 'vlachs', or 'albanians' or on very rare occasions 'Greeks' like the Athenians. However, they do not have a Macedonian national identity (by national, I mean based on a nation-state and thus they feel unrelated to the Republic of Macedonia) but rather they have a Greek national identity, because Greece is all they have ever known and so they consider Greece to be their nation-state and they are loyal to the Greek state, they speak Greek, they serve in its' army, the work in the administration, they run companies and businesses, etc. These people (somewhat culturally aware, definitely not nationally aware) are the result of the fear instilled in their parents and grand-parents.

The only way that their national-consciousness could ever catch up to their ethnic consciousness would be firstly to strengthen their ethnic consciousness by ensuring they maintain their unique Macedonian culture and language. Then there would need to be free travel, communication, trade and inter-mixing of the Macedonians from the Republic of Macedonia and the Aegean part of Macedonia, so that the cultural similarities can be shown to them all, and the cultural differences (due to 95 years of separation) can be minimised.

That's when their national (and political) awakening can and will begin to form.


Vodenka is suggesting step 1, which is to ensure they maintain their culture and language. However, in order to do this, she is suggesting that the Macedonians in the Aegean part of Macedonia do not seek to be a minority, but rather keep quiet on that political front and call themselves a 'community' and try and learn the Macedonian language, which they will have to refer to as the 'andopika' / local' language, etc. This is like saying the Republic of Macedonia should change its name to join the EU where its identity will be guaranteed. I see both of them as an oxymoron.

What I am trying to say is that there is a point at which doing something the wrong way or based on the wrong principles, could become more harmful than doing nothing at all and we need to be careful not to make that mistake.

Then again, the group being targetted by Vodenka is already headed toward being completely assimilated and becoming the "anti-Macedonian" type of 'Greeks', so there's not much worse it can get, and by maintaining the language and their own dialects, the cultural similarities between us remain and that can always be a foundation at any point in time, to built cultural unity upon.



Remember, in the above I am talking only about a certain portion of the ethnic Macedonians in the Aegean part of Macedonia (who make up the largest portion).

There are also a great number of Macedonians living in the Aegean part of Macedonia who are aware of the entire truth and know what the aims of their people, the Macedonians, were during the "Greek civil war" (and many also know about Bucharest 1913, etc). Perhaps 20% of all the Macedonians (by blood) in the Aegean part of Macedonia are in this group.

Then of course there are also those (many) who's grand-parents were ethnic Macedonians, but they have decided to completely abandon their ethnic identity by giving up all of their cultural attributes and their language and have been completely assimilated in being Greeks that they would even go so far as to deny their original mother tongue (or that of their predecessors) was not Greek, but rather Macedonian. They want nothing to do with the "barbarian, slavic culture". This group constitutes about 20% of all the Macedonians (by blood) in the Aegean part of Macedonia and they are the result of parents/grandparents with extreme fear, the Greek church and its work, and outright Grkomani in their ancestry.



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* Note: I think there is some confusion going around about the terms 'nationality' and 'ethnicity'. Nationality itself is a very loosely defined term.

I use the term 'nationality' here as something based on a nation-state, while the term 'ethnicity' is based on culture,language,ancestry, etc.

[Bratot]

What do you mean by this? Macedonians have existed, do exist and will exist, regardless of whether we have our own nation-state or not in the independent Republic of Macedonia.

Rogi, if the Macedonians in the Republic are being called differently than Macedonians, that name will be applied on all Macedonians living within and out the republic.

Yes, we will exist, but not as Macedonians.

Read again the Greek strategy revealed by Samaras, I started even a thread about it if you remember. Here it is.

Their goal is to:

FYROM essentially stopped being a “national cradle of Macedonians” and became a multi-ethnic state with two separate ethnic components. “Pseudo-Macedonian” irrendentism began to be questioned on the domestic front. What we question from abroad – the existence of an ethnic state of “Macedonians” – is something that the Albanians of Tetovo began to question from within.

And wouldn't agree on this:

I think what Vodenka is trying to suggest, is something similar to the way we Macedonians exist in the Diaspora.

For example, I live in Australia and I may therefore be considered an Australian national or an 'Australian' by nationality* (i.e. the nation-state which is my home is Australia). Day to day, I also speak/use the English language more than I speak/use the Macedonian language.

We are not talking about citizenship or this way of defining the nationality.

The Greek state deny the existence of the Macedonian minority!

My ethnicity is Macedonian and that remains regardless of whether there is a Republic of Macedonia or not, whilst here in Australia I am able to learn and speak the Macedonian language freely and I am also free to maintain my Macedonian culture and traditions.

You can't compare the rights you enjoy in the Macedonian communities in Australia with those NOT given in Greece.

If the Macedonians in the Republic change their name for their ethnic identity automatically it will be applied on the Macedonian community in Australia.

Otherwise, it will lead me to the conclusion that our Diaspora doesn't really care for the Macedonians in the Republic and it will be an absurdity that the Macedonians cannot be Macedonians in their own state but far in Australia.

If the Macedonians in Greece seek for different national/ethnic identity from the official Macedonian identity, they will become separate ethnic group apart from the Macedonians in the Republic.

It is this portion of Macedonians which Vodenka wants to target (the ones who are completely aware of the entire truth do not need to be preached to, they already seek cultural-unification with the Macedonians from the Republic).

This large portion of all ethnic Macedonians (by blood) in the Aegean part of Macedonia (making up perhaps 60% of all) that Vodenka is talking about, are citizens of Greece and they are (in that they consider themselves as such) Greek nationals or Greeks by nationality, while they understand that they are not originally, culturally, and linguistically, the same as the 'real Greek' from Athens, etc.

So actually, those who are already a selfconscious Macedonians living in Greece will be taken of their right to feel Macedonians in a same way as the Macedonians across the border.

If Vodenka wants to target a specific group it should be done without damaging the Macedonian interest by refusing to be Macedonian as those across the border.

And the cutural awakening that I suppose she want to implement on those 'converted' Macedonians can be done without opposing the other Macedonians.
The cultural awakening can be done locally and without using political instruments.

You don't need a political party in order to provide awakening, even so..I believe this party wont be able to function on a first place.

Pretty complicated issue, since the party would be organized by the selfconscious Macedonians ( I hope so) and since the Greek national political parties already have incorporated those 'converted' Macedonians as their voters.

To become a significant third option in Greek political sphere.. is... fantasy maybe?

On the first place should be the Macedonian Republic and preserving the Macedonian identity inside.

You maybe don't feel the importance of the existence of one Macedonian national state, maybe you feel safe in Australia, but you cannot gave up the Macedonian eternal striving to have independent national state.
That's the only guaranteed success for all Macedonians across the world.

Vodenka is suggesting step 1, which is to ensure they maintain their culture and language. However, in order to do this, she is suggesting that the Macedonians in the Aegean part of Macedonia do not seek to be a minority, but rather keep quiet on that political front and call themselves a 'community' and try and learn the Macedonian language, which they will have to refer to as the 'andopika' / local' language, etc. This is like saying the Republic of Macedonia should change its name to join the EU where its identity will be guaranteed. I see both of them as an oxymoron.

What I am trying to say is that there is a point at which doing something the wrong way or based on the wrong principles, could become more harmful than doing nothing at all and we need to be careful not to make that mistake.

I agree 100% with this. That's why I believe her approach is wrong.

[Daskalot]

Again mistake!!! I vote for Vinozito but I think someone who knows what he is must do more things,for example to say openly what you are.

Tzole you are on the right path, what would happen to you if you state publicaly that you are a Macedonian? Will you lose your job? Or worse? May I ask in what age group you belong to, 20-30, 30-40 or 40-50?

[Risto the Great]

Rogi (from the sidelines) wrote:

Then again, the group being targetted by Vodenka is already headed toward being completely assimilated and becoming the "anti-Macedonian" type of 'Greeks', so there's not much worse it can get, and by maintaining the language and their own dialects, the cultural similarities between us remain and that can always be a foundation at any point in time, to built cultural unity upon.

Rogi makes it clear he is referring to the majority of Macedonians in Greece.
Will waving a flag of Goce Delcev convince these people? No. Keep the language and culture and laugh at those idiots doing the rembetika and there is always a seed for the future.

Bratot wrote:

If Vodenka wants to target a specific group it should be done without damaging the Macedonian interest by refusing to be Macedonian as those across the border.

Why refuse. Why make it such an extreme condition. Learn the bloody language and culture .... then read a fucking book. Why don't they do it now? Because they think all (Republic) Macedonians are one step lower in intelligence and cultural development. Why on Earth would they start concerning themselves about "6th century Slavs" when they can celebrate the "birthplace of democracy" in mother Ellada? Remember Bratot, this is not about your version of what is right, it is about achieving the end goal ... which is a grouping of people from neighbouring countries with common language and culture. With the majority of these people living in the Republic of Macedonia who are called Macedonians. If it causes the fractures you are predicting, they will be tiny in comparison to the gulf that exists right now.

And I can tell you, the many Greeks who are reading this forum (silently) would be horrified at such a strategy. And I don't give a shit.

Split the dialects into regions: Kostursko, Lerinsko, Vodensko, Solunsko. Develop books written in the Greek alphabet with Cyrillic next to it. Have experts discuss it at grass roots levels. Remember to stress the syllables like the good old days in the particular region. Plenty still know.

Vodenka recently communicated with me. I will not go into detail, but one very useful point she made is as follows:

Our people in Egejska could become a bridge of friendship between Macedonians and Greeks when from both sides of the boundaries we will try to find things that unite us and not follow the Greek and Bulgarian propaganda which are focusing on our differences.

I like where her head is at!

[Risto the Great]

Bratot wrote:

The Greek state deny the existence of the Macedonian minority!

Brilliant. So once they speak the "other language" openly and that language is pretty much the same as that across the border in the Republic .. .. are the Macedonians across the border Greeks too?

The international community would laugh their tits off at the hypocrisy and stupidity of the Greek State.

[Risto the Great]

[QUOTE=Bratot;14362]

Yes, you talk as you have an aversion to the language in the republic.
On the other hand I am aware of the dialects and differences among us and the aegean Macedonians but I fully accept them as they speak and it doesn't bother me at all.
The differences you are trying to point out have been there for centuries, as the Macedonian speech was evolving and surviving in many regional Macedonian dialects.

The same amount of difference you can find in the Strumicki dialect and Kumanovo, or Skopje and Bitola and Ohrid or Gevgelija...
Thats the specifics of our language.

And we all speak the same language and belong to the same ethnicity/nationality - Macedonian.

Which dialect did "super" and "vikend" come from?

"Who needs the bullshit..?"???

You think this is my advice. I am telling you it is the reality. Not my advice.

Stage one: strengthening the Macedonian element in the republic and to set them in motion of working for Macedonian cause.

Stage two goes inline with stage one: strengthening the Macedonian element in Greece and giving them full support, creating a strong synergy.

Stage three is taking on a offensive on all fields and areas, such as lobbying, fininacing and promoting for the Macedonian cause.

Stage four can come after the 3 stages before are achieved or at least in a process and it will enable us to secure, to fortify the Macedonian identity for good.

Stage five should be a separate work that should be done in a economic progress of the Republic and that would mean: creating a new shipping port in Albania,Montenegro, Bulgaria or Turkey. Bulding a railway from Albanian coast to the Bulgarian border.
A new airport in eastern Macedonia.

All good ideas.
Most of them relate to the Republic and must happen irrespective of the Macedonians in Greece. But this thread is about the lost Macedonians of Greece in my opinion. They need assistance and (as an example) a shipping port in Albania is not really going to swing them.

Your "stage 2" has merit. But I have asked you before, what makes Macedonians of the Republic experts in assisting in this regard? And who are the right people to assist?

[Risto the Great]

Personally I'm shame because I can't follow this people of vinozito,because I belong to those who re well payed. Bur it is not fair for them not to recognize their contribution in the proses of weak up from our sleeping bed.

Tzole, I apologise if I have misquoted you.
But I thought the above statement means you would not vote for Vinozito.

[Bratot]

I pointed out what should be avoided.

I'm afraid the result of what you suggest will be forming a new entity within their Greek consciousness.

Meanwhile, the Greek state is denying Macedonians in the Republic and aegean and making everything whats possible in order to push them in no-exit situation where they will accept the blackmailing.

Who is closer to his goal?

We or them?

[Bratot]

Bratot wrote:
Brilliant. So once they speak the "other language" openly and that language is pretty much the same as that across the border in the Republic .. .. are the Macedonians across the border Greeks too?

The international community would laugh their tits off at the hypocrisy and stupidity of the Greek State.

The International community???

You really know how to joke, the same international community is one big hipocrisy toward us and you really believe that actually they don't know the truth?

You think they are on the Greek side because why exactly?


And I'm talking about the TIME factor.

It can be pretty much LATE till those ppl realize who they are meanwhile the Macedonians lose the battle on the external front for preserving the identity.

Your approach will have no meaning if that occure to us.

We have to stress the same origin of the Macedonians from the both sides, but NOW!

[Bratot]

Which dialect did "super" and "vikend" come from?

That is not a dialect, but internationalism.


Now I should point out some of the Greek words adopted in the aegean speech and make an argument that their language is corrupted?

Sorry..but I call it desperate try to prove some nonsense.


And we already talked that the economing interest of the aegean Macedonians should be also taken as an argument.
Cuttin off the Republic's dependance from the Solun port will significantlly change the position of the country and strengthen its power.
A strong republic means stronger support for the cause.

The stage 2 is open for suggestions, I never said that one side is the expert or should play the boss role. But somebody should show interest for colaboration without always waiting on the other side.

[Risto the Great]

Can you really point out any Greek words adopted in the Aegean dialects?
I can think of a couple ... but they might be Turkish.
I said your "internationalisms" are thought to be Serbisms by Egejci who do not know better. Is it a stupid belief, absolutely ... but so are many other beliefs.

I am glad you brought up the TIME FACTOR. We are indeed running out of time. I have a proposal, you encourage your proposals, I will encourage mine. If we are committed, I bet some serious change will occur. Otherwise, you are merely beating your chest and I have created a new version of a Greek.

But I will tell you this:

NEVER EVER before in Greece has another language been promoted. For all of your beliefs that this will cause great peril to the Macedonians across the border, there has never been such a precedent.

[Bratot]

Ok, than while you gonna claim that you have nothing in common with me and with the official Macedonian identity I will try to convince the world that we are both Macedonians.

[Risto the Great]

How could the Egejci have nothing to do with the Macedonians of the Republic if the language, culture and traditions are the same?

I think you are being dramatic and I am being realistic.

And you do this from a perspective where you have not frequented the region as many times as I have and not been able to gauge the mentality over there as frequently as I have. If you go there perhaps 100 times, you might have 1/100th of an understanding of their mentality. Perhaps then you won't be so Republic-centric and will then form your opinions on achievable outcomes in Greece.