A response from Vodenka

[Daskalot]

Lets help them become Macedonians again.

How do this when they themselves do not ask for help on a broader scale? It is like that they are in a form of apathy, they have any possibility in our modern world to ask for their rights still they do not. Address international media of your plight then the Greek government would not be so adamant to take action. This boggles me enormously, WHY THE APATHY?

[Risto the Great]

Well they have not lost being Macedonian.
But they are re-defining it as we speak.
If the initiatives discussed help them re-define themselves with ideals that are congruent with that of the Republic, then what is any of our concern?

Why the apathy? The Greek church is the biggest enemy of our people. And they take it hook line and sinker every day.

[Daskalot]

Well they have not lost being Macedonian.
But they are re-defining it as we speak.
If the initiatives discussed help them re-define themselves with ideals that are congruent with that of the Republic, then what is any of our concern?

Why the apathy? The Greek church is the biggest enemy of our people. And they take it hook line and sinker every day.

They can redefine as long as they want, as long as they do not stand up and voice themselves we can do nothing. You will never get anything without asking for it first. I opt for 'revolution', contact media, demonstrate, strike, civil disobediance, ANYTHING FOR F's sake. The Greeks claim that Greece is 98% Greek, it surely looks like it for the third party.

[Risto the Great]

Slave mentality!
You want them to break from it.
They are dogs whose master is LESS nasty to them now.
They will shut up and enjoy the quiet.
Until someone can show them pride.

[Daskalot]

Slave mentality!
You want them to break from it.
They are dogs whose master is LESS nasty to them now.
They will shut up and enjoy the quiet.
Until someone can show them pride.

There is another option, we could act as a catalyst, WE CAN START AN AVALANCHE, and throw it their way. Then they can never stop it, they need to take a stance.

[Risto the Great]

This should have happened 30 years ago Daskalot.
But Macedonians in the Republic were enjoying the Yugo prosperity back in those days.
There is no avalanche to be had ... there can only be a cultural awakening.

[Bratot]

Osiris is from the Republic. I am not sure if you see pre-judgements at all.
Here is my new mantra:
The latest thing is Old becomes New again.


I get the impression you feel that Macedonians in the Republic were impervious to change whilst the Macedonians of Greece have been tainted with the Greek virus.

The stuff we Macedonians have in common dates back 100 years ago. After that, we had separate lives and experiences. So why should not the Republic embrace the "Old" and make it "New" again. If you agree .... re-read my first post in this thread.

Your approach makes it clear there will be no discord amongst Macedonians. But you will have a lot less Macedonians in your definition.

Risto, lets prevent this discussion to go in a circle.

A prejudgment is prejudgment no matter who said it, if we all use the same logic of clasifying the Macedonians more or less as corrupted side we never ever gonna succeed at any damn right which we are struggling for.

In my previous post I gave links from the opinions of 2 Morons, whose speech goes into this "favour" of dividing the Macedonian core.


And you are absolutelly wrong in your 'impression' and it's little bit of childlish effort to point me for something like that just because I openly talk with you about the things I personally don't like and criticize.

I will maybe have less Macedonians, but at least I can be sure about their loyality in every good or bad situation.
Like it or not, those who are doubtful of any succeed of Macedonian cause can make more harm to all of us.

To succeed, first you all must believe. There is no point doing anything if there is a doubt.

my experiences in yugolsav times were that most young macedonia of that time were either ingnorant or apathetic about the occupied parts of macedonia and who the people living there were. every body not just the young used the term "ke odime vo grtsia" to refer tc a trip to lerin or solun.


a true concern for the plight of macedonians outside the republic is developing, but its still a long way of actually understanding what happened there and how it impacted on the macedonians. why couldnt the same thing happen in egei that is slowly emerging in the republic.

when i see the vinozhito activists i dont see a frchkovski, petkovski , etc. i still see macedonians but in many aspects not like the ones from the republicains, its a pity because i think they are better diplomats and politicians than most of the republics.

I asked a question before, why is it harder for the aegean folks to come visit us in the republic more often.

What you say, what I said only proves that without mutual coordination in functioning there is NO succeed in front of us.

I am not sure what you mean by aversion vs perception.

You stated the following in relation to economic strenth:

I think you accept the fact that this reliance is pretty low. I am not really sure what you are saying here. But it would appear that reliance on the economic strength is low. Therefore there will be no way to entice these Macedonians back into the fold.

Then you say that it should not be about money or economics. So now it would appear that economic strength is not the most important factor.

One cousin of mine is still considered a FREAK for marrying a Prosfiga. I call that quite a positive aspect because it shows their tendency to preserve themselves.

Talking about being bought by Greek politicians is a naive statement. If you want to explore this further, let me know. But let it be said that many Macedonians from Greece are perplexed as to how the leader of Vinozito bought some snazzy new house and works in a Government job. The reality is probably very much different to the PERCEPTION, but PERCEPTION counts. And it is working against Vinozito.

I would rather argue with someone who calls themselves Macedonian but has different political ideologies to me than someone else. Lets help them become Macedonians again. While we are at it, perhaps we can define what a perfect Macedonian is.

To be honest, your statements are full of contradictions in relation to this matter. And I wonder if you have really thought about the issues presented in detail.

Not everyone is able to understand, sorry but I don't see that as my flaw or contradiction.

Instead of defying you should be lil bit selfcritic.

1. Most of the Macedonians in aegean are lead by the economic interest.
That's why they haven't showed interest to preserve or to built strong relation with their brothers in the Republic.

2. Most of the Macedonians in the Republic are lead by the economic interest.
That's why we have political option serving false perception to the ppl that if we change the name the EU/NATO will accept us and our economic standard will rapidly go up.


3. Vinozhito isn't offering some economic program nor has the same power to be equal opponent of the Greek main parties.

They are seen as enemies to the Greeks, a view produced by the Greek media and other relevant subjects.

The job of Vinozhito was to show our presence and to fight for th basic human right.
From that aspect I believe they are doing good job.

By trying to undermine their leader with puttin out some personal stuff, I suggest you better ask yourself to whom you are doing a favour and to be fair enough and share the personal information about Vodenka for ex. to see where she works, how good she live and other stuff as you pointed for Pavle.
Just for the record, why not.
Since the leader should work on the farm and live in a ruined house, in order to be fully accepted by the ppl.
We are focusing on this part now right?


And what can you conclude from the point 1 and 2?

I believe you will justify the ppl I mentioned in point 2, in same way as you do for those in the first point.

Let's all give up of the name and from who we are, let's live a better life.
Some other fool will fight for our human rights instead, and if he succeed then we might consider being Macedonians once again.

[Daskalot]

There are Macedonians that support Pavle in Greece, I rather help those then the fence sitters that are Macedonian when it suits them. An cultural awakening will not give them minority rights, they will still be Slavophone Greeks, in essence Greeks with a twist. True Grkomans that will work against us as much as they can and do thier masters bidding. What good will these culturally awakened Macedonians do when in reality they are Greeks?

[Venom]

It can happen. As the economy all around the world crumbles and people begin to slowly realise that money isn't everything, they may look to something deeper. Something they can speak about and not be afraid they will get shot for.

I can see this happening in Macedonia as well as many other places around the globe.

[Soldier of Macedon]

The danger posed by these other avenues being discussed is the risk of Macedonians becoming like the Vlach and Arvanites in Greece, who have completely sold out their origins. The Greek state will never allow any other cultural distinction, unless it ties into Greek 'identity' somehow.

[Bratot]

There are Macedonians that support Pavle in Greece, I rather help those then the fence sitters that are Macedonian when it suits them. An cultural awakening will not give them minority rights, they will still be Slavophone Greeks, in essence Greeks with a twist. True Grkomans that will work against us as much as they can and do thier masters bidding. What good will these culturally awakened Macedonians do when in reality they are Greeks?

I agree Daskalot.
It would be same reflected situation with the Serbomans and Bugarophiles in Republic. It's not hard to measure the harm they did and are still doing to all of us.

And I want somebody to explain, what exactly you have on mind when you speak about "cultural awakening"?

[makedonin]

Bez zaednichki neprijatel, samite ke se izedeme (mozh treba da ostaveme nekoj grk ili bugar za da se karame so niv, namesto megju nas)

Sigurno shakalite se sladat na ovoa.

Mojta definicija za Makedonec e: "Sekoj sho se chustvuva samo Makedonec, bez nekoja pridavka od tugja nacija e Makedonec."

Se drugo vode samo kon brato ubistvo.

Koj kakva kultura ima e nebitno.

Toa e samo moje mislenje...........

[tzole]

Macedonians in Greece

Also Vodenka we must say that there is a number of people who wants to be Macedonians as the Macedonians who live in Repubika Macedonia.
But I strongly believe that Macedonian state must take some steps in order to make clear to the people that they will be there for them in every need.These steps must be in a way to hep us to integrate because of the assimilation and isolation.(Education-right to vote,etc).
Not just to use the term minority in use in the internal political arena.They must give priority' s to help us.We don't want money we need just a warm hug from the Macedonia(Da ne pregarni,da ne gusni).Every time I get in Macedonia I get to breath free.(Da disham sloboden veter)
But many times Macedonians officers or border officials are very rude with us.I think there is the problem the Macedonians must understand that we have suffer and we've been through fire and steel to remain Macedonians.
Majka Makedonia da ne pregarni.
There is only one way to get our freedom=fight,struggle with every thing,even with b.......
Thank you for your space.
Ako eden Makedonets saka da ga priblize Makedonia kon Grtsija ili kon Bugarija ili ko Srbija togas moze da se misli za dobar Grk ,srbin,Bugarin ane i za dobar Makedonec.

[Bratot]

Also Vodenka we must say that there is a number of people who wants to be Macedonians as the Macedonians who live in Repubika Macedonia.
But I strongly believe that Macedonian state must take some steps in order to make clear to the people that they will be there for them in every need.These steps must be in a way to hep us to integrate because of the assimilation and isolation.(Education-right to vote,etc).
Not just to use the term minority in use in the internal political arena.They must give priority' s to help us.We don't want money we need just a warm hug from the Macedonia(Da ne pregarni,da ne gusni).Every time I get in Macedonia I get to breath free.(Da disham sloboden veter)
But many times Macedonians officers or border officials are very rude with us.I think there is the problem the Macedonians must understand that we have suffer and we've been through fire and steel to remain Macedonians.
Majka Makedonia da ne pregarni.
There is only one way to get our freedom=fight,struggle with every thing,even with b.......
Thank you for your space.
Ako eden Makedonets saka da ga priblize Makedonia kon Grtsija ili kon Bugarija ili ko Srbija togas moze da se misli za dobar Grk ,srbin,Bugarin ane i za dobar Makedonec.

Well said Tzole, I hope this government will start delivering their promises to all of us.

[tzole]

Lets tell some truths here:
Vodenka the term minority is different as part as group who try to preserve our identity and through this term the state have the obligation to promote and help you to do.It is also true that we strange and for the Greeks and we are different from them and every one who try not to see this he lies to himself.
Personal I disagree with you on what the people feel.every one feel that they belong to something different and when you know what you are why we have to pretend that we are not the same with the Macedonians? We all know that there is a number of us that we have an easy life well payed and we don't want to start digging to find the truth.On this wonderful life we must be good boys so not to get made the Greeks.If we are not different and not claim our rights, then why we make all this?We all know that the Greek state silently have accept our existence until the day we don't make troubles for them.but how we can forget the policy of ethnic cleansing that the Greek make systematically against us.How is possible to exist Greek minority every where in the Balkans and theres is no problem and suddenly when we ask the right to be protected then there is a problem.We the Macedonians who live in Lerin(Florina )we demand to be recognized and have all the rights that the Greek minority have in other country's.
Personally I'm shame because I can't follow this people of vinozito,because I belong to those who re well payed. Bur it is not fair for them not to recognize their contribution in the proses of weak up from our sleeping bed.
I just wish to find the strength to be like them.I'm sure that they have make some mistakes,but we have to keep our head down and listen them because they are really brave fighters.