A response from Vodenka

[makedonin]

"I am what I am, what else could I be" was the response of a great sage.

Macedonians in Greece and Macedonians in the Republic are one, but still not the same. This is the first thing to remember.

The circumstances of developing ones consciousness leads through reassembling and reconsidering the circumstances in which one have grown. Both have been through different path's of development.
This is different for both sides, Macedonians from Greece and the Republic.

We both have different views on how and what Macedonian is, how should be organized etc? The question is, how much our views differ?

The choice is to focus on the common which connects or to focus on the differences that divide. It depends on the both sides.

Which prevail the other, that will happen.

[Bratot]

There are certain subjects that are not discussable, such as our common ethnic origin.

Some interesting subject:

Македонските иселеници од Грција на црна листа

http://www.novamakedonija.com.mk/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabindex=3&tabid=2&fCat=1&EditionID=347&top=1&ArticleID=20773

[MapleLeaf1]

I can understand how people might feel about what Vodenka posted, I too don't like some of the things either, but making an organization that is more on a "grass roots" level is a good idea, local dialects that feature poetry, theatre; keeping local customs alive, be it dances, songs, and traditions is a great idea, BUT until there is another option, I feel that every ethnic Macedonian should make their voice heard, and the only way is to vote for Vinozhito any chance they get
As far as trying to get one another to feel the same,(since we all are Macedonians) exposure is the key, hopefully the government in Macedonian, and any organizations in Egej look to these forums as a guide to bring at least our young people together( having an English option on a site is a starting point and a must)

[Risto the Great]

On the way back home we ( me and a friend of mine from Lerin) were stopped by a old man (around 70) on the highway. When we took him with us for a ride to the next village we had a conversation from which came out that he is a local, Macedonian, who doesnt speak Macedonian nor any related dialect but pure Serbian language.

I could comment on may issues of your post Bratot.
But the above text is physically impossible. Absolutely impossible.

[Bratot]

I could comment on may issues of your post Bratot.
But the above text is physically impossible. Absolutely impossible.

I asked my friend how come this old man was speaking serbian to us and the answer was that the ppl who lived close to the border with us - then it was still SFRJ all knew Serbian because they were trading on the both sides of the border.

And that's nothing strange or impossible,in Solun many of the shop owners speak Serbian too.
During the YU period, the customers who were coming to Greece for shopping were mostly from SFRJ.
The economic standard in SFRJ was on a higher level than the Greek.

From the older ppl I know that the Greeks were coming even to the border to sell bananas and oranges to us.
Different times.

[Risto the Great]

A 70 year old (self-describing) Macedonian who could not speak Macedonian in Egej is impossible.
You are now saying during the YU period that everyone spoke Serbian and then proceed to question why the Macedonians from Greece think people from across the border are a different race.

Can't you see a problem here?

[Bratot]

Excuse me, where exactly I have said that everyone were speaking Serbian?

And... the official language in SFRJ was serbo-croatian, what's so odd for you?

You see.. just while ago you were the one claiming that the Macedonians in the aegean were feeling aversion to their northern Macedonians because of the "language" issue.

I say thats bullshit.

The best way to gain the full support of the whole Macedonian population, not only Lerin and Kostursko region, is to become economically stronger country than Greece.

And everything will be forgoten, no language barriers, no aversion and silly claims for different ethnicity.
I guess even the Greeks will learn Macedonian language.

[osiris]

what people seem to forget is that from a comon ethnic origin different cultures can evolve and have in many situations including divided macedonia. i find there are cultural differences between macedonians in the disapora and the republic and between the different nations of the diaspore.

vodenka is making a good point, she is on the ground and knows exactly how many macedonians in egei think and feel. its not theta they are ethnically diferent but culturally they are, accept it and get over it, because if you dont accept it, you are living in a fools paradise and will never be able to change the situation.
the macedonian nation is only now emerging we are at our the start of our develpopmnet not at the end. if vodenkas tactics were applied and failed then we would have to try another angle and path. vodenkas aim is to rejuvinate the macedonian spirit and to make them proud and committed macedonians.

i dont think that making them identical to the citizens of the republic culturally is necassarily such a good thing. do you want them to adopt the remanants of yugo culture and speech i dont.

i think she may be on a winner so lets not condemn her without even giving her tactics a go. i am concerned that many people think there is only one way to achieve sucess here and then hold up the way that has not been very successful as the right path.

the people of vinozhito must not be above criticsm they have done much, but certainly have made mistakes and would be the first to admit they have not achived what they would have hoped.

rtg like you i have many contacts with people from egei, and i understand vodenkas perspective and propsed tactics. i urge her to give it a go, i dont believbe it will perpetuate a divide, a divide already exisits, but on the contrary will eventually bridge the existing division.

[Risto the Great]

Excuse me, where exactly I have said that everyone were speaking Serbian?

And... the official language in SFRJ was serbo-croatian, what's so odd for you?

You see.. just while ago you were the one claiming that the Macedonians in the aegean were feeling aversion to their northern Macedonians because of the "language" issue.

I say thats bullshit.

The best way to gain the full support of the whole Macedonian population, not only Lerin and Kostursko region, is to become economically stronger country than Greece.

And everything will be forgoten, no language barriers, no aversion and silly claims for different ethnicity.
I guess even the Greeks will learn Macedonian language.

Well, everyone did learn Serbo/Croat in School up until 20 odd years ago.
The perception is that everyone spoke Serbian.
Perception counts.
Some Macedonians in Greece call themselves pure Greeks now based on "perception". Greek priests were telling Macedonians that they had a sure path to God with salvation only from the one and true holy Greek church. I think you undervalue "perception".

You and I agree on economic strength. So if Greece is economically stronger right now ... and may continue to be for (say) 30 more years. Is this what you are going to place your reliance on?

[osiris]

econmic strntgh is one of the keys the other is not to close the gate to people becuase they are not identical to you. that is a big problem given the republics culture was developed within a one party dicatorial political culture where one perspective was considered the only right one and dissent from it was heretical and to be squashed.

[Bratot]

Well, everyone did learn Serbo/Croat in School up until 20 odd years ago.
The perception is that everyone spoke Serbian.
Perception counts.
Some Macedonians in Greece call themselves pure Greeks now based on "perception". Greek priests were telling Macedonians that they had a sure path to God with salvation only from the one and true holy Greek church. I think you undervalue "perception".

You and I agree on economic strength. So if Greece is economically stronger right now ... and may continue to be for (say) 30 more years. Is this what you are going to place your reliance on?

Aha... we came from aversion point to the perception point.

My reliance is what we both know, the economic motivation for the Macedonians from Greece is pretty low.

But that can't be their excuse and they can't sell their arses to the Greeks because they offer a better life.


If the Greeks manage to buy the Macedonian voters, as they did so far, those ppl who are leading only from the profit side priorities in lack of Macedonian awarness will easily become our direct oportunists.

I guess that's happening with Vodenka thinking.

[Bratot]

what people seem to forget is that from a comon ethnic origin different cultures can evolve and have in many situations including divided macedonia. i find there are cultural differences between macedonians in the disapora and the republic and between the different nations of the diaspore.

vodenka is making a good point, she is on the ground and knows exactly how many macedonians in egei think and feel. its not theta they are ethnically diferent but culturally they are, accept it and get over it, because if you dont accept it, you are living in a fools paradise and will never be able to change the situation.
the macedonian nation is only now emerging we are at our the start of our develpopmnet not at the end. if vodenkas tactics were applied and failed then we would have to try another angle and path. vodenkas aim is to rejuvinate the macedonian spirit and to make them proud and committed macedonians.

i dont think that making them identical to the citizens of the republic culturally is necassarily such a good thing. do you want them to adopt the remanants of yugo culture and speech i dont.

i think she may be on a winner so lets not condemn her without even giving her tactics a go. i am concerned that many people think there is only one way to achieve sucess here and then hold up the way that has not been very successful as the right path.

the people of vinozhito must not be above criticsm they have done much, but certainly have made mistakes and would be the first to admit they have not achived what they would have hoped.

rtg like you i have many contacts with people from egei, and i understand vodenkas perspective and propsed tactics. i urge her to give it a go, i dont believbe it will perpetuate a divide, a divide already exisits, but on the contrary will eventually bridge the existing division.

Do I see prejudgements over Macedonians from the republic?

Couldn't some Vodenka replica appear on the other side in the Republica and say the completelly same thing?

And another replica of Osiris would say:

I dont think that making them identical to the Macedonian living in Greece culturally is necassarily such a good thing. do you want them to adopt the remanants of Greek schauvinistic culture and speech i dont.


With your approach you sow the seed of discord among Macedonians.

[Risto the Great]

Do I see prejudgements over Macedonians from the republic?

Couldn't some Vodenka replica appear on the other side in the Republica and say the completelly same thing?

And another replica of Osiris would say:

I dont think that making them identical to the Macedonian living in Greece culturally is necassarily such a good thing. do you want them to adopt the remanants of Greek schauvinistic culture and speech i dont.


With your approach you sow the seed of discord among Macedonians.

Osiris is from the Republic. I am not sure if you see pre-judgements at all.

Here is my new mantra:
The latest thing is Old becomes New again.


I get the impression you feel that Macedonians in the Republic were impervious to change whilst the Macedonians of Greece have been tainted with the Greek virus.

The stuff we Macedonians have in common dates back 100 years ago. After that, we had separate lives and experiences. So why should not the Republic embrace the "Old" and make it "New" again. If you agree .... re-read my first post in this thread.

Your approach makes it clear there will be no discord amongst Macedonians. But you will have a lot less Macedonians in your definition.

[osiris]

my experiences in yugolsav times were that most young macedonia of that time were either ingnorant or apathetic about the occupied parts of macedonia and who the people living there were. every body not just the young used the term "ke odime vo grtsia" to refer tc a trip to lerin or solun.


a true concern for the plight of macedonians outside the republic is developing, but its still a long way of actually understanding what happened there and how it impacted on the macedonians. why couldnt the same thing happen in egei that is slowly emerging in the republic.

when i see the vinozhito activists i dont see a frchkovski, petkovski , etc. i still see macedonians but in many aspects not like the ones from the republicains, its a pity because i think they are better diplomats and politicians than most of the republics.

[Risto the Great]

Aha... we came from aversion point to the perception point.

My reliance is what we both know, the economic motivation for the Macedonians from Greece is pretty low.

But that can't be their excuse and they can't sell their arses to the Greeks because they offer a better life.


If the Greeks manage to buy the Macedonian voters, as they did so far, those ppl who are leading only from the profit side priorities in lack of Macedonian awarness will easily become our direct oportunists.

I guess that's happening with Vodenka thinking.

I am not sure what you mean by aversion vs perception.

You stated the following in relation to economic strenth:

The best way to gain the full support of the whole Macedonian population, not only Lerin and Kostursko region, is to become economically stronger country than Greece.

I think you accept the fact that this reliance is pretty low. I am not really sure what you are saying here. But it would appear that reliance on the economic strength is low. Therefore there will be no way to entice these Macedonians back into the fold.

Then you say that it should not be about money or economics. So now it would appear that economic strength is not the most important factor.

One cousin of mine is still considered a FREAK for marrying a Prosfiga. I call that quite a positive aspect because it shows their tendency to preserve themselves.

Talking about being bought by Greek politicians is a naive statement. If you want to explore this further, let me know. But let it be said that many Macedonians from Greece are perplexed as to how the leader of Vinozito bought some snazzy new house and works in a Government job. The reality is probably very much different to the PERCEPTION, but PERCEPTION counts. And it is working against Vinozito.

I would rather argue with someone who calls themselves Macedonian but has different political ideologies to me than someone else. Lets help them become Macedonians again. While we are at it, perhaps we can define what a perfect Macedonian is.

To be honest, your statements are full of contradictions in relation to this matter. And I wonder if you have really thought about the issues presented in detail.