Does Macedonia belong to the Balkan or Aegean world

[Soldier of Macedon]

I swear I brought this up a couple years ago in a seperate thread.

You must be referring to the text in the link which Carlin posted. Misirkov makes reference to the works of medieval and contemporary authors who wrote about ‘Slavic’ settlements or invasions. He does this whilst exploring theories on how certain nations were formed. As per my previous reply to Carlin, I don’t see this as a major issue as he was still learning about Macedonian history at the time and was essentially analysing what he'd read.

[Karposh]

AND ANOTHER THING!!!...Just kidding Carlin . I never like to kick someone when they're down and you have been knocked down on a few threads of late with some of your unfortunate choice of words when describing Macedonians. However, in all seriousness, I would be remiss not to pull you up on yet another unfortunate choice of terminology you have made.

This is both funny and insulting at the same time. I present the opinions of Misirkov -- a person who is generally accepted as being one of the biggest Macedonists of all time...

Why would you choose to use the word "Macedonist" instead of Macedonian when describing Krste Petkov Misirkov. I think he has earned the title of Macedonian instead of a pretend-macedonian, a Macedonist. Macedonist is a term our enemies (the Bulgarian fascists) have coined to belittle our identity as something fabricated and artificial, and yet, you choose to go with their wording instead of ours. If it is simply down to naivety then please accept my apology for labouring the point (you will appreciate everyone is very touchy about this issue at this point in time when our very identity is being challenged and questioned from both inside and outside of Macedonia). But if it is a conscious effort on your part then that would be disappointing.

Speaking of Macedonists, the 19th Century Bulgarian poet and publicist, Petko Slavejkov (quite possibly the originator of the word), has a lot say about them in the following thread.

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1797

He uses the terms Macedonians and Macedonists interchangeably, where he warns of the growing danger these Macedonists hold over Bulgaria's aspirations to take over Macedonia. This was in an article in 1871 discussing Macedonians which weren't meant to exist at all according the current Greek and Bulgarian narrative on Macedonians. I'm sure that's something that the new joint Greek-Macedonian expert panel of historians will be debating in the coming months and/or years and determining whether this is irredentism that needs to be stricken from the history books.

[vicsinad]

All well said, Karposh, but in 15 years, all of us here and in the Diaspora are going to start being labeled as Macedonists once the Bulgarian and Greek history committees have convinced the Northmacedonians that they have no history.

[vicsinad]

Having said this, genetics do not determine ethnicity. The genetic variation across humans is tiny (0.6% of all base pairs) because, quite frankly, we're all human beings. What geneticists look at to try and distinguish human populations and migrations is a microscopic proportion of the human genome. Further, there is usually more variation within a group than there is between groups, which doesn't help. Genetic mapping can help trace migrations when it is used in conjunction with other information - linguistic, archaeological etc., but even then, its a best guess.

Ethnicity is socially constructed, not genetic. What does this mean? It means that looking at genetics to determine whether Macedonians are "Slavic" or whether there was a "Slavic" migration is even less helpful than trying to determine whether they have "Asian" or "African" markers (they do - everyone does).

Ethnicity is a combination of culture, language, ancestry, the belief in the groups existence, religion and absolutely none of these all at the same time. Its pervasive and elusive. You can find examples of individuals that fit all the criteria (and agree they do not belong) and of individuals who fit none of the criteria (and agree that they do belong). Its as much objective as it is subjective and at the same time its neither. Asking whether Macedonians (or anyone else for that matter) are "Slavic" is about as meaningful and relevant as asking what blue tastes like.

Well put. That's how I feel, too, about ethnicity. (Actually was just writing something that essentially said what you said in the bold part.) Though, there could be some sort of genetic component involved if we consider ancestry to be part of ethnicity. Then again, half of my third cousins on my father's side insist their Serbs -- so there's also the impact that ancestry/genetics plays on one's perceived ethnicity.

[Gocka]

Ethnicity is a very personal thing, determined by one's self based on many factors. That is why the Slav garbage is that much more insulting, because it was always created and perpetuated by foreigners. It comes from a time when our people were peasants and had no say, we are not peasants anymore.

[Carlin]

Don’t go to the extent of creating a strawman. Nobody here is trying to change or explain away his words. What we’re doing is providing context, while you seem to have avoided it until we inserted it into this discussion.

As far as I can see, he references medieval and contemporary authors regarding ‘Slavic’ settlements in the Balkans in the context of outlining various theories of how certain nations were formed. He analyses possibilities based on what he has read. Some may disagree, but I don’t see this as a major issue given that at this stage in his life he was still in the process of learning about Macedonian history. Others were already ahead of him during the same period.

Could you please clarify what is the 'context' in this specific case? Also, how was I creating a strawman?

[Carlin]

Why would you choose to use the word "Macedonist" instead of Macedonian when describing Krste Petkov Misirkov. I think he has earned the title of Macedonian instead of a pretend-macedonian, a Macedonist. Macedonist is a term our enemies (the Bulgarian fascists) have coined to belittle our identity as something fabricated and artificial, and yet, you choose to go with their wording instead of ours.

Did you not see the brief introduction of the Macedonian wikisource link I shared?

Here it is again (main page):

https://mk.wikisource.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%B0_%D0%BC%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%BD%D1%86%D0%BA%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B5_%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%B8

"За македонцките работи е книга напишана од Крсте Петков Мисирков и обіавена во Софиіа во 1903 година. Книгата ги претставува погледите на еден од наіголемите македонисти и национални деіци кон македонското прашан'е, националната свест и пред сè кон македонскиот іазик. Во книгата се обработува тематиката за основан'е на стандарден македонски іазик, правопис и азбука."

[Carlin]

That's because many of those Vlachs migrated from today's Romania southwards into Macedonia and other regions. But that's a whole other story which I am sure Carlin also has an opinion on.

I guess this can be discussed elsewhere.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Could you please clarify what is the 'context' in this specific case?

The circumstances he was in at the time of writing. Some people think it is important to understand why he formed such opinions at the time. It's somewhat more analytical than referencing quotes in isolation without giving due consideration to what shaped his evolving views.

Also, how was I creating a strawman?

By responding to a non-existent argument when you indicated that his words can't be changed or explained away. Nobody suggested this.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I guess this can be discussed elsewhere.

Sure, if you disagree with my statement, share your views here: http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...omanian&page=2

[Karposh]

Did you not see the brief introduction of the Macedonian wikisource link I shared?

Here it is again (main page):

https://mk.wikisource.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%B0_%D0%BC%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%BD%D1%86%D0%BA%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B5_%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%B8

"За македонцките работи е книга напишана од Крсте Петков Мисирков и обіавена во Софиіа во 1903 година. Книгата ги претставува погледите на еден од наіголемите македонисти и национални деіци кон македонското прашан'е, националната свест и пред сè кон македонскиот іазик. Во книгата се обработува тематиката за основан'е на стандарден македонски іазик, правопис и азбука."

You can link the wiki source here as many times as you want but the wiki source is not posting on this forum, you are. My question was and still is to you and not your wiki source - why would you choose to use the word Macedonist instead of simply Macedonian when describing Misirkov in your opening sentence for your argument? You must know that the word is loaded with negative connotations and, although I played devil's advocate a few posts back with regard to your usage of this word, I'm pretty sure you're not as naive as I gave you credit for. And please don't give me that malarkey about your wiki source. We know how credible wiki-anything can be. Tomorrow your wiki source might say he was one of the greatest North Macedonists of all time. Does that mean you will open with that in your next argument and supply an obscure link to the same somewhere within your long winded post?

[Vangelovski]

You can link the wiki source here as many times as you want but the wiki source is not posting on this forum, you are. My question was and still is to you and not your wiki source - why would you choose to use the word Macedonist instead of simply Macedonian when describing Misirkov in your opening sentence for your argument? You must know that the word is loaded with negative connotations and, although I played devil's advocate a few posts back with regard to your usage of this word, I'm pretty sure you're not as naive as I gave you credit for. And please don't give me that malarkey about your wiki source. We know how credible wiki-anything can be. Tomorrow your wiki source might say he was one of the greatest North Macedonists of all time. Does that mean you will open with that in your next argument and supply an obscure link to the same somewhere within your long winded post?

To be fair, Macedonism or Makedonizam is not an ethnicity. Its an idea. To be a Macedonist is not a comment on one's ethnicity, its a description of their ideology. I'd say every patriotic Macedonian would be a Macedonist in that their political cause is an independent Macedonian nation-state.

[Karposh]

To be fair, Macedonism or Makedonizam is not an ethnicity. Its an idea. To be a Macedonist is not a comment on one's ethnicity, its a description of their ideology. I'd say every patriotic Macedonian would be a Macedonist in that their political cause is an independent Macedonian nation-state.

I take your point Vangelovski but I would clarify that with the following:

• Macedonism/Makedonizam - A Macedonian's interpretation would be exactly what you described - A patriotic ideal: Macedonia above everything else.
• Macedonism/Makedonizam - A non-Macedonian's interpretation (think Petko Slaveykov and Bulgarians in general, Greeks included) would be: A artificial national ideal to appropriate the Macedonians of old.

But, perhaps I am being bit harsh on Carlin.

[Carlin]

The circumstances he was in at the time of writing. Some people think it is important to understand why he formed such opinions at the time. It's somewhat more analytical than referencing quotes in isolation without giving due consideration to what shaped his evolving views.

What do you mean by the circumstances he was in at the time of writing?

[vicsinad]

I take your point Vangelovski but I would clarify that with the following:

• Macedonism/Makedonizam - A Macedonian's interpretation would be exactly what you described - A patriotic ideal: Macedonia above everything else.
• Macedonism/Makedonizam - A non-Macedonian's interpretation (think Petko Slaveykov and Bulgarians in general, Greeks included) would be: A artificial national ideal to appropriate the Macedonians of old.

This is generally the way I see it too.