stories told from macedonia

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  • Amphipolis
    replied
    This is from an article of the Journal "Democratic Army" (Vol. 10) published by the end of 1948 on the exact topic ("The Democratic Army and Slav-Macedonians") written by Vice-Colonel (of the Democratic Army) Pantelis Vajnas. At the beginning it says 25k Slav-Macedonians fought by the side of ELAS including reserves. (ELAS was the military arm of the party during occupation 1942-1945).

    Then it presents estimations of losses. Lastly it says that by January 1948 the Slav-Macedonians enlisted in the Democratic Army reach 11k.

    Percentages are not provided.

    Με αφορμή τη συνεχιζόμενη συζήτηση σχετικά με τη συμφωνίας Ελλάδας και ΠΓΔΜ παρουσιάζουμε σήμερα ενδιαφέροντα στοιχεία σχετικά με τη συμμετοχή του σλαβόφωνου πληθυσμού της χώρας μας στους αγώνες τόσο…

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  • Karposh
    replied
    Before I start quoting Wikipedia on the numerical strength and ethnic make-up of the Democratic Army of Greece (the Greek acronym being DSE while the Macedonian for the same is DAG, i.e. Demokratska Armija na Grcija) during the Greek Civil war, I'd like to concede that I am in no way an expert on the subject. It seems there is no real consensus on the overall numerical strength of the DSE fighters during that time. Some English entries, like the following on the Democratic Army, of Greece, specifically, say that at its height, it had a strength of around 50,000 men and women. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Army_of_Greece

    The same entry also states the following:
    An article written by Nikos Zachariadis expressed the KKE's strategy after the envisioned victory of the Democratic Army of Greece regarding what was then known as the "Macedonian Issue": "The Macedonian people will acquire an independent, united state with a coequal position within the family of free peoples’ republics within the Balkans, within the family of Peoples’ Republics to which the Greek people will belong. The Macedonian people are today fighting for this independent united state with a coequal position and is helping the DSE with all its soul...." The policy of self-determination for Macedonia within a People's Republic was reiterated during the 5th KKE Central Committee meeting held in January 1949, which declared that the "Macedonian people participating in the liberation struggle would find their full national re-establishment as they want giving their blood for this acquisition... Macedonian Communists should pay great attentions to foreign chauvinist and counteractive elements that want to break the unity between the Greek and Macedonian people. This will only serve the monarcho-fascists and British imperialism...." This statement can be explained due to the large number of Slavomacedonian fighters (60%) amongst the DSE fighters.
    60% is a surprisingly very high percentage of DSE fighters which, considering it is coming from Wikipedia, is even more surprisingly.

    The following numbers come from the English Wikipedia entry on the more general subject of the Greek Civil War, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Civil_War#Origins:

    Despite setbacks, such as the fighting at Konitsa, the DSE reached the height of its power in 1948, extending its operations to Attica, within 20 km of Athens. It drew on more than 20,000 fighters, both men and women, and a network of sympathizers and informants in every village and suburb. Among analysts emphasising the KKE's perceived control and guidance by foreign powers, such as USSR and Yugoslavia, some estimate that of the DSE's 20,000 fighters, 14,000 were Slavic Macedonians from Greek Macedonia.
    I should note that when I was looking at the same article a week or two ago, I could have sworn there was a specific sub-heading dedicated to the ethnic make-up of the DSE where there was a mention of the eventual Vlah involvement within the ranks of the DSE. That seems to be no longer the case. I guess Wikipedia is very dynamic that way and is constantly being edited. I also remember the overall strength at it's height being the same, i.e. 20,000 fighters with ethnic Macedonians making up at least 14,000 out of that total. That same entry from about a week ago did also stress, presumably due to the high percentage Macedonians, that during it's entire existence, approximately 100,000 fighters either passed through the ranks of the DSE or were reservists. That is not to say that at any single point in time they had a total of 100,000 active fighters but that many fighters passed through it's ranks over the course of its existence as a fighting force or were reservists. My guess is that this statement was put in to minimise and purposefully blur out the Macedonian element in comparison to the actual overall DSE strength. It suits them better to have 14,000 Macedonians out of a total of 100,000 fighters (“who passed through the ranks of the DSE or were reservists”) rather than 14,000 out of an overall total fighting force of 20,000 fighters "during the height of its power.

    Macedonian Wikipedia on the subject of DAG or the DSE gives a total number of 35,000 men and women to the DSE's overall fighting force. It also states that 20,000 out of this number were recruited from Aegean Macedonia and that 14,000 of these 20,000 recruits from Aegean Macedonia were ethnic Macedonians. https://mk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94...B8%D1%98%D0%B0
    In addition Macedonian Wikipedia states that 20,000 out of the 50,000 killed during the Greek Civil war were ethnic Macedonians.

    Although I haven't been able to find any numbers for the Vlah involvement in the Greek Civil war, I'll keep looking and re-visit this thread when I do. I don't think I imagined seeing them mentioned the other week but, at the moment, all info on their participation in the civil war seems to have disappeared.

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  • Amphipolis
    replied
    Originally posted by nushevski77 View Post

    A final story that isn't really isn't associated to my family; in the mid 1960's when my dedo was mandatory serving in the greek army he was in solun since one of his duties was to deliver mail and he met this old man who was also in the army they were talking and the old man could tell that my dedo wasn't greek but macedonian and told him to be proud of who he is and never forget that; he also told him how after the second balkan war most of aegean macedonia and solun was supposed to go to bulgaria but bulgaria had to withdraw most of its troops from the region since it was also fighting romania at the same time. so during that time the greek government sent its army and king to solun at the time and the army executed the king in the city of thessaloniki/solun since they believed in some stupid way that if their king died their it would somehow give them a claim to aegean macedonia/whatever part that bulgaria was occupying at the time (I know it sounds outlandish but crazy stuff happens during war, I tried to figure it out and wikipedia has no real info on the man who killed their king just that he was a drunk and a lot of mystery so I believe this that the army killed their own king to get the land.)
    The Greek King George I was murdered in March 1913, before the beginning of the Second Balkan War (June 1913).

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  • Amphipolis
    replied
    Originally posted by Statitsa View Post
    What? No mention of any Vlach - Macedonian - Romanians? (sarc)
    I did a small research. There isn't anything special or worth mentioning about the participation of Vlachs in the Democratic Army, probably because of this:

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  • Statitsa
    replied
    Automatic translation from Greek wikipedia. This is more detailed on the ethnic and social composition of Democratic Army of Greece (Section 3)
    What? No mention of any Vlach - Macedonian - Romanians? (sarc)
    Last edited by Statitsa; 12-15-2018, 05:08 PM.

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  • Momce Makedonce
    replied
    Originally posted by nushevski77 View Post
    These are my stories although being born in the diaspora I for some reason have such an affinity to my ethnic roots/homeland as on the other hand my cousins couldn't care less maybe I'm just different or their just happy to be Canadians and leave all this stuff behind them but I feel its doing a disservice to not remember the people who fought for and suffered for the macedonian cause and although I make no impact on whats hapening right now with the political situation in the country I guess I try to do my part and educate those who are unaware of the macedonian struggle.
    I can definitely relate to this, I have always had a much stronger affinity and connection to the Macedonian identity than my first cousins have. I remember growing up and always viewing them as being more mainstream Australian in the way they were raised and acted, whereas my siblings and I were more of a Macedonian upbringing. My cousins spoke really broken Macedonian, they even spoke to their other set of Grandparents in English which I always found really strange and never really had an interest in anything Macedonian. However it seems as they are getting older they are now getting more interested in knowing the language better, visiting Macedonia and practicing Macedonian culture which is a good thing.

    It was probably due to the fact that my siblings and I live with my Baba and Dedo in the same house that the influence of Macedonian culture was always there, but in saying that nobody in my family ever really tried to make me a patriotic Macedonian, it's just been something I have always been interested and passionate about.

    Your cousins could always gain an interest in being Macedonian in the future.

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  • Amphipolis
    replied
    They didn't just share ideologies, as two similar political parties do. They were tools of the same party, yet they were formed in different periods and for different scopes.

    For instance, communists believe that DSE was far more organized, it was a real army, and at some point they took the fatal decision that they would not act as guerillas (which was often criticized as cowardly behavior) but as a tactical army that would give great field battles.

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  • Amphipolis
    replied
    National Liberation Front (EAM) was the Resistance Group of the Communist Party during Occupation (1941-1944).
    The Democratic Army of Greece (DSE) was the military formation (literally an army) of the Communist Party during the Civil War (1946-1949).

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  • Amphipolis
    replied
    Automatic translation from Greek wikipedia. This is more detailed on the ethnic and social composition of Democratic Army of Greece (Section 3)

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  • vicsinad
    replied
    The Greek Civil War was indeed about Macedonia. It was not only about Macedonia, but it was certainly about control of Macedonia.

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  • Amphipolis
    replied
    This is a semi-official list by the Communist Party, listing all incidents of beheadings or dead bodies of rebels exposed in public view. As you can see there's a total of 129 incidents and according to the map, less than 10 (?) in Macedonia. The map also indicates whether the Greek Civil War was about Macedonia.

    Το 1944 τα προσχήματα των Βρετανών αφεντάδων μας είχαν τελειώσει. Εν όψει των επικείμενων εκλογών και του δημοψηφίσματος για τον βασι...


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  • Karposh
    replied
    Originally posted by Stojacanec View Post
    it makes sense, 28,000 people don't escape their homeland in the middle of the night for nothing.
    It's interesting that both English and Macedonian Wikipedia entries state that:

    The official Greek position was that these children had been forcibly taken from their parents by the Communists to be brought up under a socialist system. The abduction of children is referred to by Greek historians and politicians as the Paidomazoma (Παιδομάζωμα), alluding to the Ottoman Devşirme.
    “...forcibly taken from their parents by the Communists to be brought up under a socialist system.” And who were the communists? 14,000 out of the 20,000 men and women that made up the ranks of the communist forces of Greece (DAG) were ethnic Macedonians. I can pretty much guarantee that not one of those 14,000 Macedonian men and women would have put a higher price to the political party which they fought under, which, at best was nothing more than a means to an end, over their own flesh and blood – i.e. their own children or little nephews and nieces. They fought for the Greek Communists because those lying bastards promised them full human rights. If the other side did the same, I'm sure they would have fought for them too. The only condition that the Communists made to this promise was that they abandon any dreams for a United Macedonia.

    From Wikipedia:
    At the fifth Plenum of KKE (i.e. The Communist Party of Greece) on January 31, 1949, a resolution was passed declaring that after KKE's victory, the Slavic Macedonians would find their national restoration within a united Greek state. The alliance of the Democratic army with the Slav Macedonians, caused the official Greek state propaganda to call the communist guerillas Eamovulgari (from EAM plus Bulgarians) while the communists were calling their opponents Monarchofasistes (Monarch fascists).
    Incidentally, I did the maths and the 14,000 Macedonian fighters works out to be exactly 70% of the combined communist forces of Greece. The other 6,000 were made up of Greeks and Vlahs from right across Greece. So, when anyone tells you this was an ideological civil war between fellow Greeks, that is to say, Greek against Greek, the numbers speak otherwise I'm afraid. This was a Greek war on the Macedonians of Greece, plain and simple. Greece, and the west painted it out to be just an ideological war (i.e. Communism V Democracy) but the fact is the Greek Civil War was a genocidal war against the Macedonians. Win or lose, the KKE and DAG were never going to honour their end of the deal. They were going to stiff the Macedonians regardless. And, thanks to US and British backing, not to mention US made napalm, the result was never in question.

    Some interesting facts about napalm:
    Napalm was invented on Valentine's Day 1942 in a top-secret Harvard University weapons research laboratory in Cambridge, Massachusetts. Professor Louis Fieser tested the first napalm bomb on the Harvard College soccer field that Independence Day. It went on to support the Allies in Europe, incinerate 64 of Japan's 67 largest cities, and help America win World War II: the Bomb got the press, but napalm did the work.
    Napalm describes any form of thickened hydrocarbon: torturously hot and sticky when ignited, stable at high and low temperatures, cheap, easy to transport, and simple to prepare. It is one of the most devastating weapons ever invented.
    Air force commanders around the world embraced incendiary gel after they observed its effectiveness. Greek bombers used U.S. napalm to annihilate civil war enemies in 1948...

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  • Stojacanec
    replied
    thanks for the insight. I am always interested to hear peoples accounts and stories especially from the Aegean side.

    it makes sense, 28,000 people don't escape their homeland in the middle of the night for nothing.

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  • Gocka
    replied
    Go to hell you piece of garbage. If there is a god, you and your entire tribe will get what is coming to them one day.

    Originally posted by Amphipolis
    This is unreadable. Please, re-edit it and put some paragraphs.
    Онај не е пичка, онај е копиле, изрод. Немат зборови, незам како да изјаснам колку е мразам она стокана. Фала му на господ што сме на форум а не во живо, ке го имав убијено до сега.

    Крв да му ебам племе гадно.

    Originally posted by Tomche Makedonche View Post
    Don’t ever say sorry to that Пичка. Ever.
    Like Tomche said, don't you dare.

    Thank you for sharing. Be inquisitive, our old folks have all the knowledge, it is our duty to make sure we help them pass on as much as they can. It is then our duty to make sure we do the same.

    Originally posted by nushevski77
    okay sorry aboout that will do

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  • Risto the Great
    replied
    although being born in the diaspora I for some reason have such an affinity to my ethnic roots/homeland as on the other hand my cousins couldn't care less maybe I'm just different or their just happy to be Canadians and leave all this stuff behind them but I feel its doing a disservice to not remember the people who fought for and suffered for the macedonian cause
    Meanwhile, your cousins are probably lobbying to save kittens somewhere in the world. What a pity they ignore their own history.

    Thanks for the snippets of your own family history.

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