What Can I do?

[nushevski77]

post deleted

[Gocka]

Hello, welcome. It's good that you want to be involved. It's pretty difficult to make a meaningful impact from the diaspora. At the end of the day, the decision will be made by people who can vote in Macedonia. The best we can do on our side of the pond is to be good advocates for what is just, and what is not. Reach out to freinds and family, change as many hearts and minds as you can.

For the love god do not give any money to the UMD please! The UMD in short is a sham. Forget the fact that they use a large part of the donations they get to pay themselves salaries and pay for their travels, but they have been totally inconsistent and unreliable when it comes to standing up for what is right. In short the hand full of people that run it are opportunist, who enjoy being relevant, politicians if you will. They go which ever way they think populism is going, or which ever way their largest donors want them to go, as of late that would be pro Bulgarian traitors.

As to where you can find Macedonians in Toronto, shoot that should be easy. Toronto has the largest Macedonian community outside of Macedonia in the world. I think there is something like a 100,000 in Toronto. I'm surprised you haven't run into any by chance.

Im so sorry its come down to a referendum to decide the name of Macedonia this should never be happening in the first place. Im 18 born in Toronto Canada my baba and dedo are from a village near lerin; Ive been to the rally for the name that was held this spring but I don't know what else to do I want to do my part but don't know what that would be I've thought about buying a membership for UMD but I don't think that my money would go to support against the name change. Also besides my cousins I've only ever met two other Macedonian's in my life besides going to the rally or at Church does anyone know where most of the young Macedonians in Toronto are?

[Risto the Great]

nushevski77, I will be slightly sceptical about your inability to find Macedonians in Toronto. I understand they are quite prevalent. Giving you the benefit of the doubt (given your limited posts to this forum), I will suggest you find Macedonians and discuss the issues of concern to you. Inform yourself of the political issues at hand and question everything. Gauge the responses of these Macedonians in comparison to what is being discussed in places such as here. Determine the depth of their understanding.

If you find like minded people, see if there is a way to demonstrate your thoughts in a collective fashion.

Sadly, I am of the opinion that the Republic of Macedonia is on a crash course to becoming the enemy of Macedonians. And any solution we can offer from the outside will amount to very little for the nation itself. The smart people in Macedonia are geared up for nothing more than personal gain (or irrelevance). A dangerous time.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Also besides my cousins I've only ever met two other Macedonian's in my life besides going to the rally or at Church does anyone know where most of the young Macedonians in Toronto are?

Welcome to the forum. To find Macedonians in Canada, you can check here for a start: http://unitedmacedonians.org

Toronto has the largest Macedonian community outside of Macedonia in the world. I think there is something like a 100,000 in Toronto.

In the more recent census statistics of persons who declared Macedonian ancestry, there are approximately 43,000 in the whole of Canada. There are over double that figure in Australia. In fact, in Victoria alone there are about 30,000 persons who declared Macedonian as their spoken language at home. Most of these people live in Melbourne. No doubt the ancestry figures are higher in both cases but if they didn't bother to declare it then for many of those people their dedication to the cause or involvement in the community is likely to be negligible.

[Statitsa]

Check out "MYNET - Macedonian Youth Network" on Facebook. I believe they are GTA based.

An interview with a couple of members;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CurjyhhhMn8

[FoxTale]

Is there anything you can do for the cause if your not Macedonian or have any connections to the country?

Also, why the heck is it legal for the Albanians in the Diaspora to fly in and vote, but not Macedonians in the Diaspora

[vicsinad]

Welcome to the forum. To find Macedonians in Canada, you can check here for a start: http://unitedmacedonians.org

In the more recent census statistics of persons who declared Macedonian ancestry, there are approximately 43,000 in the whole of Canada. There are over double that figure in Australia. In fact, in Victoria alone there are about 30,000 persons who declared Macedonian as their spoken language at home. Most of these people live in Melbourne. No doubt the ancestry figures are higher in both cases but if they didn't bother to declare it then for many of those people their dedication to the cause or involvement in the community is likely to be negligible.

This article cites Gregory Michaelidis' PHD dissertation as claiming the number of Macedonians in Toronto is between 100,000 and 150,000.

http://heritagetoronto.org/the-macedonians-in-toronto/

To be be fair, I have cousins in Canada who didn't declare their ancestry as Macedonian and are very active in the community.

But I don't know the specifics. Macedonians tend to exaggerate our numbers (UMD's 500,000 in the USA claim, for example). Then again, we know censuses and surveys are not accurate, as there are way more than 50,000 Macedonians in the US. (There's at least 30,000 in Michigan alone, based on my research).

[Soldier of Macedon]

This article cites Gregory Michaelidis' PHD dissertation as claiming the number of Macedonians in Toronto is between 100,000 and 150,000.

There are similar claims for other cities and countries where Macedonians reside. As I stated before, I am positive there are more persons with Macedonian ancestry than recorded in the census', but of those persons who aren't willing to tick a simple box on a form in acknowledgement of their heritage, most of their commitment to the community or the cause is limited, if not absent altogether.

To be be fair, I have cousins in Canada who didn't declare their ancestry as Macedonian and are very active in the community.

If they care enough to spend so much effort being active in the Macedonian community, why would they fail to declare their ancestry on a census form, especially when it contributes to the strengthening of our numerical position in official statistics? Seems like an oxymoron.

Is there anything you can do for the cause if your not Macedonian or have any connections to the country?

Joining this forum is a good step, if not for anything else than to learn about our culture, history and perspectives. Advocate on behalf of Macedonian issues and raise awareness during your interaction with non-Macedonians. Challenge those that have espoused narratives which unfairly denigrate Macedonians. Do this whilst being mindful that your opinion as an 'outsider' may often be perceived as being more objective and less emotional. If you have influence in the area you reside, use it to help initiatives aimed at preserving the dignity and identity of Macedonians. Reach out to Macedonian community groups. If you need assistance with any of this, ask us, I am sure there would be someone here able to point you in the right direction. You can also learn to drink rakija shots, but that isn't always helpful

Also, why the heck is it legal for the Albanians in the Diaspora to fly in and vote, but not Macedonians in the Diaspora

Are you suggesting ethnic Macedonians that are citizens of Macedonia cannot fly into the country and vote during elections?

[vicsinad]

There are similar claims for other cities and countries where Macedonians reside. As I stated before, I am positive there are more persons with Macedonian ancestry than recorded in the census', but of those persons who aren't willing to tick a simple box on a form in acknowledgement of their heritage, most of their commitment to the community or the cause is limited, if not absent altogether.

If they care enough to spend so much effort being active in the Macedonian community, why would they fail declare their ancestry on a census form, especially when it contributes to the strengthening of our numerical position in official statistics? Seems like an oxymoron.

To be fair, in the US and Canada censuses (I believe) there's not a "Macedonian" box to check off. You have to write your language/ethnicity in, and there's really no convenient spot to do so.

For example, here's the US census form, and there's no place for ethnicity, to check or write:

http://www.censusquestions.com/2010-us-census-form.pdf

And here's the US ASC survey data for which the most current survey lists a total number of 50,000 Macedonians. It's not until page 8 that they ask what is your ethnicity, and this is not mailed out to everyone, only to random people:

https://www2.census.gov/programs-surveys/acs/methodology/questionnaires/2018/quest18.pdf

I've never ticked off any box for being Macedonian, or wrote that I'm Macedonian, on any census or survey. Moreover, I can almost guarantee you that the majority of Macedonians (born in Macedonia who have very little command of the English language) see that paper and don't know what they're filling out. Teenagers and 20-something year olds who live with their parents probably leave it up to their dad/mom or head of household, who again, probably doesn't know exactly what they're doing or don't care. Actually, most people here could care less about the census and do the bare minimum just to get the thing completed.

I don't think how one completes a census form necessarily signals anything about anyone's commitment to the Macedonian Cause or their Macedonian community.

But how I'm interpreting your statement is like this:

"You say you do x for the cause and community, but you don't do y, so are you really dedicated to your cause and community?"

Seems ridiculous.

[vicsinad]

It seems like in Canada's census, you have to write in your ethnicity as well:

https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/nhs-enm/2016/ref/questionnaires/questions-eng.cfm

Anyway, it's very likely that the greater-Toronto area has the largest number of Macedonians in the world outside of the Balkans. If not, it definitely has the largest in the Western Hemisphere. Whether or not Melbourne has a few thousand more or less than Toronto is neither here nor there. It is indeed surprising that nushevski77 hasn't run into many other Macedonians in Toronto.

[vicsinad]

I should have been more clear I have met Macedonian's in Toronto that are unrelated to me but only from being introduced to them by my baba they've all been older people around the same age as my baba. What I meant is I haven't found Macedonian's in Toronto that are around my age. Hoping when I go to university this fall I will find some although I doubt it.

Some universities in Canada have Macedonian student associations. Here's one at Toronto University. Maybe they can help you out?

https://www.facebook.com/pg/amsut.mk/posts/?ref=page_internal

[Gocka]

Its all about awareness. Greeks for example have always had the advantage of being a larger and much more well know ethnic group. Many non Greeks are advocating on their behalf simply because they don't know the other side of the story. The Greekness of western society is something that has deep roots, predating the Greek state by centuries. So from our point of view, simply making people aware that there is another side, and that we do have rights and legitimate grievances, that is a huge step in the right direction.

Is there anything you can do for the cause if your not Macedonian or have any connections to the country?

It's legal for anyone who has Macedonian citizenship. It may seem like only Albanians come back to vote, because that is pretty much how it ends up. Most Albanians live in Europe, Switzerland and Italy being two hot spots. It is close enough that you can even drive back to Macedonia, even on short notice. Macedonians mostly live in the USA, Canada, and Australia. Requires long expensive flights, and is not really feasible to do on short notice and for a short period of time. On top of that many Macedonians in the Diaspora are very old immigration and have been in the diaspora for generations, meaning they don't have Macedonian citizenship. Many might be eligible through ancestry, but they still have to go through the process and actually obtain it. Then you have Macedonians who were forced out of modern day Greece and Bulgaria who don't have roots in the modern Republic at all and would have trouble getting citizenship in any case.

The problem is that Albanians are more likely to be counted as residents even if they have emigrated. Simply because they visit more often.

Its a mess honestly. One that only a proper honest census could fix.

Also, why the heck is it legal for the Albanians in the Diaspora to fly in and vote, but not Macedonians in the Diaspora

[Phoenix]

...Also, why the heck is it legal for the Albanians in the Diaspora to fly in and vote, but not Macedonians in the Diaspora

Just my personal opinion about this...

Much is made about shiptari coming from all over the world to vote...I believe that most elections in Macedonia are rigged due to the endemic corruption that exists within the country at every level of society...the story of the shiptari flying in and arriving en masse to vote is just used as an excuse for the legitimacy for certain election results...I just don't believe that every shiptar makes such an effort to vote.

The 2 major ethnic Macedonian political parties are to blame for this when they pander to their shiptar partners to win government or to pass strategic legislation and it will be the way that the future referendum will also unfold...

[Soldier of Macedon]

For example, here's the US census form, and there's no place for ethnicity, to check or write: http://www.censusquestions.com/2010-us-census-form.pdf

What about if you marked 'some other race' and print 'Macedonian' in the row of boxes at the bottom of Question 9? That question seems to allow for an extension from race to ethnicity, because Asian Indians and Pakistanis are not a difference race, nor are Native Hawaiians and Samoans, nor are Thais and Laotians (all of which are mentioned separately in the same question).

And here's the US ASC survey data for which the most current survey lists a total number of 50,000 Macedonians. It's not until page 8 that they ask what is your ethnicity, and this is not mailed out to everyone, only to random people: https://www2.census.gov/programs-sur...18/quest18.pdf

If it's not mailed out to everyone, then what's the total sample size in which those 50,000 Macedonians are recorded? Or is that the population estimate provided by the U.S Census Bureau after it collates and/or cross-references the data from both the ASC survey and the decennial census? The below link seems to indicate the latter, perhaps you can clarify:

https://factfinder.census.gov/faces/tableservices/jsf/pages/productview.xhtml?src=bkmk

I've never ticked off any box for being Macedonian, or wrote that I'm Macedonian, on any census or survey.

I have to ask, why not? Don't you think it is beneficial for the number of Macedonians to be accurately reflected in statistics?

Moreover, I can almost guarantee you that the majority of Macedonians (born in Macedonia who have very little command of the English language) see that paper and don't know what they're filling out.

Come on. It's not like they're pioneering pečalbari arriving in 19th century America. These days, most would have relatives, friends, acquaintances or translators via government services to help them out if they had any questions about an official-looking form that suddenly appeared in their mailbox. And if there are places where people from the Macedonian community congregate or if there are local Macedonian-language radio broadcasts, I would be very surprised if the topic of the census went unmentioned. Here, they were constantly talking about it until the final day. Why would it be any different for our people in the U.S.?

Teenagers and 20-something year olds who live with their parents probably leave it up to their dad/mom or head of household, who again, probably doesn't know exactly what they're doing or don't care.

That's unfortunate.

But how I'm interpreting your statement is like this: "You say you do x for the cause and community, but you don't do y, so are you really dedicated to your cause and community?"

Sort of, but also, "if you do x for the cause and community, why wouldn't you do y given that it takes 10 seconds and increases our representation in official statistics?". I don't think it's an unreasonable question.

Seems ridiculous.

Don't take it so personally. You're clever enough to understand why it can appear as an oxymoron given that filling out a census is one of the easiest ways for a person (especially one active in the cause and/or community) to express their Macedonian patriotism. Perhaps you have a good reason for not doing it yourself which I haven't yet considered. I may or may not agree with it, but it's your choice, I am just interested to understand the logic.

Anyway, it's very likely that the greater-Toronto area has the largest number of Macedonians in the world outside of the Balkans. If not, it definitely has the largest in the Western Hemisphere. Whether or not Melbourne has a few thousand more or less than Toronto is neither here nor there.

I trust this is not becoming a contest about which city is more Macedonian based on population size, because I have no doubt that Toronto has a large number of Macedonians and that they're great people. However, if we're going to talk about official statistics, then Australia has the largest resident Macedonian community outside of the Balkans, with over 40,000 declared Macedonians in greater Melbourne alone.

https://profile.id.com.au/australia/ancestry?WebID=260

[vicsinad]

What about if you marked 'some other race' and print 'Macedonian' in the row of boxes at the bottom of Question 9? That question seems to allow for an extension from race to ethnicity, because Asian Indians and Pakistanis are not a difference race, nor are Native Hawaiians and Samoans, nor are Thais and Laotians (all of which are mentioned separately in the same question).

Sure, one could do that. But unless there is an organized campaign here in the US to get people to write their race in as 'Other-Macedonian' instead of white, then we'll only end up with a few thousands people, if that, writing that they're Macedonian, which would be meaningless statistics and could potentially even hurt us.

If it's not mailed out to everyone, then what's the total sample size in which those 50,000 Macedonians are recorded? Or is that the population estimate provided by the U.S Census Bureau after it collates and/or cross-references the data from both the ASC survey and the decennial census? The below link seems to indicate the latter, perhaps you can clarify:

https://factfinder.census.gov/faces/...xhtml?src=bkmk

I'm not sure how it's exactly determined. But here's a link to their sample sizes and another link (lengthy read) to how they come to their estimates. Based on my understanding, though, it doesn't necessarily take into account the US Census in whole because the ACS asks different questions for different reasons:

https://www.census.gov/acs/www/methodology/sample-size-and-data-quality/sample-size/

https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/acs/methodology/design-and-methodology.html

I have to ask, why not? Don't you think it is beneficial for the number of Macedonians to be accurately reflected in statistics?

I do think it's beneficial. However, the last attempt to get a campaign going in the US was UMD working with the MPO, who then suggested we should write ourselves in as Maceono-Bulgars, and UMD's campaign was essentially ruined. If there's no unified campaign with a clear and simple message to Macedonians, that can actually motivate them, then the results will still likely be irrelevant.

Come on. It's not like they're pioneering pečalbari arriving in 19th century America. These days, most would have relatives, friends, acquaintances or translators via government services to help them out if they had any questions about an official-looking form that suddenly appeared in their mailbox. And if there are places where people from the Macedonian community congregate or if there are local Macedonian-language radio broadcasts, I would be very surprised if the topic of the census went unmentioned. Here, they were constantly talking about it until the final day. Why would it be any different for our people in the U.S.?

I can tell you no Macedonian has ever talked about the ACS surveys to me. The topic of US census has come up (in regards to the UMD/MPO campaign), but there was never a unified and clear campaign in how to respond to the question on "race". To my recollection, however, it was not a hot topic among the local communities. I think you're overestimating the Macedonians in the US: we are neither organized nor goal-oriented. And while the census is not a complicated form, I can almost guarantee you the mentality of many Macedonians here is "shto e ovo gjubre?" and do the bare minimum.

Sort of, but also, "if you do x for the cause and community, why wouldn't you do y given that it takes 10 seconds and increases our representation in official statistics?". I don't think it's an unreasonable question.

I agree that it seems reasonable and simple (common sense) to do something that takes 10 seconds. However, I think it's a mistake to assume that most Macedonians in the US have made that connection, or have had that realization, that "if I write in Macedonian for my race, this is going to benefit us as a community." And because I think it's a mistake to assume that, I think it's a mistake to generalize or categorize people for not doing it.

Don't take it so personally. You're clever enough to understand why it can appear as an oxymoron given that filling out a census is one of the easiest ways for a person (especially one active in the cause and/or community) to express their Macedonian patriotism. Perhaps you have a good reason for not doing it yourself which I haven't yet considered. I may or may not agree with it, but it's your choice, I am just interested to understand the logic.

I am not taking it personally. Refer to above for my reasoning. I think you're giving Macedonians in the US too much credit, and are applying your experience with Australia's Macedonians and the census campaign there to the American Macedonian census experience.

I trust this is not becoming a contest about which city is more Macedonian based on population size, because I have no doubt that Toronto has a large number of Macedonians and that they're great people. However, if we're going to talk about official statistics, then Australia has the largest resident Macedonian community outside of the Balkans, with over 40,000 declared Macedonians in greater Melbourne alone.

Yes. Official statistics would probably point to Australia, or Melbourne in particular, as having more Macedonians. Then again, Greece's official statistics don't say much about about the ethnic Macedonian population in Greece. My point in bringing that up is that official statistics are not necessarily reliable, and sometimes unofficial statistics and estimates can be just as -- or even more -- valuable than official statistics. Therefore, it's not unreasonable based on unofficial estimates and independent research to assume that Toronto may have the largest Macedonian population outside the Balkans.