Dating Macedonian Women

[Starling]

Thanks. But, in a sense, the journalist DID put every man on trial for less than this.

I'm pretty sure I've said before that no one really has time to go at length about how they're talking about different subsets of a particular demographic when it's already inferred by calling attention to the ones who do a specific thing. It's like when Americans talk about white people vs White People. They're not talking about everyone within that demographic so much as the ones who are specifically doing the things they're trying to point out is a problem.

The general statements in that article were about being aware of all those little biases people may not notice until brought to their attention. It's a conversation that needs to be had. I also brought up how it's common for people to feel angered by that as a gut reaction but it isn't really a rational feeling so much as a conditioned response. Years of equating that kind of bias with hate crimes and such will do that. Just don't be willfully ignorant about it and you'll be fine.

Depending on how the woman responds, it may soon become clear they don't need mansplaining. But women need to take some blame for this also. You see they use their particular subset of finely crafted skills to manipulate men. They are better than this than men. So there are consequences and they can take ownership of this process. As I said, men are far less likely to even bother helping other men.

Such "testing" is generally done in an inappropriate context or in a blatantly condescending manner, particularly in regards to things they clearly know about. That's what makes it mansplaining. In regards to my games and comics example, you don't need to know every little detail of some lengthy series to be a "real" fan and you don't even need to be particularly good at a game either. They're just for fun.

There's asking if they know about something that's outside their specialization and main line of work and then there's explaining things that are a basic part of what she does or experiences on a regular basis. Ask a woman about her invention but don't explain to her how it works. She built or designed the damn thing. If you want to test people's knowledge, do interviews or something.

That's stereotyping. In fact, that particular stereotype goes back quite some time. Pandora's myth comes to mind. Interestingly enough there's evidence of what that myth used to be before it got warped and distorted by misogyny. It's been used to paint women as these devious creatures who exist solely to torment men or make them miserable to justify their mistreatment by society. In any case there are about as many psychologically manipulative men out there as women so that's not really a gender specific thing.

How can women not accept they have specific advantages over men and then seek to redress other issues that they feel they are less superior? Sounds like a winning strategy to me. I think I am a clever guy and part of it is BECAUSE I know women are more clever in more ways than men.

What advantages? The wage gap is still a thing, women are still very prone to sexual assault and sexual harassment, women had to fight for the right to have jobs and the ability to vote, people still routinely perpetuate sexist stereotypes and disrespect women even when they're in a position of authority and people constantly make up excuses to justify their double standards when demanding more from women than from men for certain positions.

That's another stereotype. You know, women have variously been stereotyped as cunning or stupid depending on which is more convenient. The men are dumb stereotype is specifically about being clueless about stuff like cooking and other things women are expected to do around the house. In contrast, cooking as a profession is full of men and women have a harder time getting into the profession because the stereotype was never about cooking to begin with. It's an attempt at justifying the expectation that women tend to the household first and foremost.

We live in patriarchal societies. Women are not at the top. That rich white men tend to make most of the decisions should tell you as much.

As I said, I fear for my sons. I love my mini-world and enjoy my working and living environment. And I see much of the world so I know how universal some of these issues really are.

Without labouring the point, you come across as quite an enlightened person who genuinely believes in a better future for women, homosexuals and any other deemed underprivileged member of society. Our hallowed Goce Delcev stated:

"I understand the world solely as a field for cultural competition among the peoples."

Ethnic Albanians of Macedonia constantly tell Macedonians they are victims and they are a mistreated minority. I cannot see how your enlightened views would deal with a minority hellbent on usurping the majority power in Macedonia. Perhaps we can explore this on another thread as it is not entirely relevant but does highlight competing interests.

We both know it's not really about minority rights, since they already have more than any other minority in Europe. The problem with the Albanians is their colonialist and chauvinistic behaviour, overt collusion with a hostile government and blatant terrorism. See Britain and France's colonial history for a more apt comparison. Should they decide to peacefully coexist alongside Macedonians, acknowledge that they aren't the native inhabitants and actually integrate into Macedonian society instead of trying to smother it so they can replace it, then that would take care of the issues going on there.

I don't think you can deport the ones actually committing hate crimes but fixing enough of Macedonia's government to actually enforce laws regarding the illegals acts committed would be nice. You'd still have to be careful not to let them spin it around the way they've been doing with the terrorists being released. You'd also have to be careful not to harm genuinely innocent civilians in the process as that would further complicate the matter, especially with the media an institutional bias.

Stuff like that is exactly why article 30 of the UDHR exists. It's also the kind of mentality involved in what I mentioned before about people pretending to be victims when they're actually the aggressors. A comparable term is the wounded gazelle gambit.

There is nothing wrong with being polite, respectful and non-violent. It is my honour to be like this and I include this as part of my chivalrous nature. I am talking about men becoming compliant little ornaments for women. Men in modern society are confused. It is simple. They are lost. A friend pointed out that men are going crazy since the size of their blocks of land have diminished. There used to be a time when men would retire to their garage and tinker away to help collect their thoughts. An interesting observation I have never thought about to be honest.

Well that's not what women are asking for. They just want to be treated like equals. As equals neither of you would be forcing the other to comply. I've seen a lot of unhealthy relationships where the husband would pretty much demand his way and everyone else just had to deal with it. He'd then claim it was a mutually agreed decision when he didn't really let them go against it. A lot of women have to deal with stuff like that and yet still manage to be spirited.

You can still have a garage and stuff but you also have to consider how much time you're spending on that and whether or not it comes at the expense of other things. While some people are fine with long spans of time apart, others will be exasperated if you always go off and do whatever without a word and never really do anything with them. There has to be moderation to it. Communication and mutual consideration is part of a healthy relationship.

You also have to consider how much space your stuff takes up in relation to how much is available and whether your spouse has a space like that too. If the garage is filled with your stuff and there's no space for what your spouse might want that needs to go there too, then that's a potential problem you'd have to discuss.

If you feel the constant need to be away from your spouse then it probably isn't a healthy relationship.

Meanwhile a dear female friend was recounting a party she attended recently with a whole bunch of 20/30 somethings where the men were running around with the babies changing nappies and the women were getting drunk. Ahh progress!

Since this discussion is about relationships and we are all adults here. Sex is obviously a pretty good reason to have a relationship. Whilst it isn't the case for everyone, I will hazard a guess that many women enjoy a powerful lover who craves and adores her every curve. A man that can overwhelm the woman physically during a bout of strong sex allowing her to surrender to the enjoyment of the moment is someone that is craved and appreciated and even talked about. Immediately after the act I must assume this raging bull of a man would then revert to the docile and sensitive caregiver that we are talking about. Here is a tip, men aren't that capable of switching hats as well as women. They simply aren't. So, if we are talking about the fundamental nature of men versus women, then it is a shame you as a woman cannot understand men will never think like a woman. And women will never think like men. I am very sure it is more than societal expectations causing this. I am sure it is the very essence of our fundamental genetics.

You don't have to. The whole notion of dominance and submissiveness are complete bullshit. In terms of sex, just figure out whatever it is you find mutually pleasurable and it doesn't really matter what position or methods are involved so long as you have a good time. There's never going to be a consistent expectation of anything in particular in that regard as people have a wide variety of different tastes.

If you're going to live together, the ability to do so is a bigger priority than sex. You're going to be managing finances, property and mutual possessions together for quite some time on top of being able to deal with each other in the same house and making important decisions together. To an extent being each other's close friend is part of a romantic relationship. You have to be able to spend time together, rely on each other and be there for support when your spouse needs it.

I have seen women thrive in relationships in even the most pathetic and seemingly male dominated cultures. In fact, (non-pejorative) peasant Macedonian culture is one of the best examples of the beauty of co-habitation I can think of.

It's something of a necessity. People have always strived to make the best of what they have. Chinese women had to develop their own secret writing system passed down from mother to daughter.

My only experience with that is that my baba and dedo had a very loving relationship. My dedo was always happy to see me since I was one of the only girls in the family. Like I said, healthy relationships take mutual respect. In my experience, women in pastoral societies do plenty of hard work too and that work is valued.

I think that, at the end of the day, anyone who does not respect the fact that men and women have different but equally important and complementary roles is in for a lot of disillusionment. That's not to say that we can't do a lot of the same things, but there are clear fundamental differences - none of which are any better or worse than each other.

The whole separate but equal thing doesn't work and is basically segregation. Those gender roles may have started out that way but they cause far more harm than good now. Better to just be fluid about societal roles and expect everyone to be capable of the basic stuff as a matter of self-sufficiency.

[Vangelovski]

I think that, at the end of the day, anyone who does not respect the fact that men and women have different but equally important and complementary roles is in for a lot of disillusionment. That's not to say that we can't do a lot of the same things, but there are clear fundamental differences - none of which are any better or worse than each other.

[Risto the Great]

Having it pointed out to you that something you said or did is misogynistic doesn't necessarily mean you're some terrible person who should be put on trial for it.

Thanks. But, in a sense, the journalist DID put every man on trial for less than this.

Women with degrees regularly have their field of study explained to them by people who don't know as much about it or have their knowledge and authority challenged simply because they're a woman. Even when talking about more general stuff they're likely to be treated condescendingly and at times are literally shushed or told to shut up. In day to day, you get stuff like female comic or videogame fans being expected to know a plethora of obscure trivia about what they like to "prove" that they're a "real" fan despite making up a large portion of the demographic for those things. The article specifically referenced interruptions at board meetings and I've heard plenty of stories of women having to deal with that before I ever even heard the word mansplaining.

Depending on how the woman responds, it may soon become clear they don't need mansplaining. But women need to take some blame for this also. You see they use their particular subset of finely crafted skills to manipulate men. They are better than this than men. So there are consequences and they can take ownership of this process. As I said, men are far less likely to even bother helping other men.

How can women not accept they have specific advantages over men and then seek to redress other issues that they feel they are less superior? Sounds like a winning strategy to me. I think I am a clever guy and part of it is BECAUSE I know women are more clever in more ways than men.

Why does a woman talking about problems she and other women have faced but that you don't consider yourself involved in anger you? As something other men have perpetuated, would you not be capable of separating yourself from that? Could it be that on some level you feel targeted by this article, like it applies to you? Really think about where those feelings come from and whether or not there's a rational basis to them.

As I said, I fear for my sons. I love my mini-world and enjoy my working and living environment. And I see much of the world so I know how universal some of these issues really are.

Without labouring the point, you come across as quite an enlightened person who genuinely believes in a better future for women, homosexuals and any other deemed underprivileged member of society. Our hallowed Goce Delcev stated:

"I understand the world solely as a field for cultural competition among the peoples."

Ethnic Albanians of Macedonia constantly tell Macedonians they are victims and they are a mistreated minority. I cannot see how your enlightened views would deal with a minority hellbent on usurping the majority power in Macedonia. Perhaps we can explore this on another thread as it is not entirely relevant but does highlight competing interests.

Your view on women's expectations of men is flawed. Being polite, respectful and non-violent with others doesn't make you weak as your comment of docility seems to be meant to convey. Breaking out of unhealthy societal standards that condition men to act in those ways isn't some disaster we'll need to learn "the error of our ways" about in 30 years. Like I've said before, the same societal standards that hurt women hurt men too.

The expectation that men bottle up their emotions lest they seem weak leaves them unable to properly cope with them, making them more susceptible to anger problems, depression, anxiety and so on. That violence and insecurity fuels a hell of a lot of hate crimes and discrimination, so society is overall better off without all that. In a future where they've been fully addressed, men will be more comfortable with who they are as they can freely express themselves emotionally and in their interests without being derided for not being part of the conventional idea of masculinity. Women will be treated as equals and everyone will be able to better collaborate on things.

There is nothing wrong with being polite, respectful and non-violent. It is my honour to be like this and I include this as part of my chivalrous nature. I am talking about men becoming compliant little ornaments for women. Men in modern society are confused. It is simple. They are lost. A friend pointed out that men are going crazy since the size of their blocks of land have diminished. There used to be a time when men would retire to their garage and tinker away to help collect their thoughts. An interesting observation I have never thought about to be honest.

Meanwhile a dear female friend was recounting a party she attended recently with a whole bunch of 20/30 somethings where the men were running around with the babies changing nappies and the women were getting drunk. Ahh progress!

Since this discussion is about relationships and we are all adults here. Sex is obviously a pretty good reason to have a relationship. Whilst it isn't the case for everyone, I will hazard a guess that many women enjoy a powerful lover who craves and adores her every curve. A man that can overwhelm the woman physically during a bout of strong sex allowing her to surrender to the enjoyment of the moment is someone that is craved and appreciated and even talked about. Immediately after the act I must assume this raging bull of a man would then revert to the docile and sensitive caregiver that we are talking about. Here is a tip, men aren't that capable of switching hats as well as women. They simply aren't. So, if we are talking about the fundamental nature of men versus women, then it is a shame you as a woman cannot understand men will never think like a woman. And women will never think like men. I am very sure it is more than societal expectations causing this. I am sure it is the very essence of our fundamental genetics.

I have seen women thrive in relationships in even the most pathetic and seemingly male dominated cultures. In fact, (non-pejorative) peasant Macedonian culture is one of the best examples of the beauty of co-habitation I can think of.

[Starling]

You are generalising by assuming anyone concerned about men's rights must be a misogynist. A real feminist should be equally concerned with men's rights. Men should have no less rights than women.

I'm pointing out a trend I've personally experienced regarding the usage of the term. Even people who use it without being intentionally malicious tend to do so based on biases against women they aren't aware of. In recent times people have been stressing the importance of being aware of their biases by pointing out how just because something's not a hate crime doesn't mean that it's not racist and how pretty much everyone is racist in some manner due to biases and that willingness to acknowledge that and improve yourself in that regard is what really makes the difference. The same applies to other forms of discrimination.

Having it pointed out to you that something you said or did is misogynistic doesn't necessarily mean you're some terrible person who should be put on trial for it. It's willful ignorance of that after you've been made aware of it that becomes a problem.

I've already pointed out that Feminists address double standards that affect everyone and recognize that it all stems from unhealthy societal standards regarding gender roles. What I'm talking about here is that people have begun using the term mens rights to attack the notion of feminism under the pretense that they're just man haters or that Feminism somehow harms them. It's the same rationale that cause the whole blue lives matter thing in response to black live matter despite the massive discrepancy between police deaths and people who get shot by police. While theoretically correct in that what they named the group after matters, that's not what they're actually about. No, what they're doing is akin to a red herring argument and trying to derail the issue to talk about something different while vilifying the discriminated group in the process. That's basically what all those anti-Macedonian groups are doing too. It's a common tactic you encounter in pretty much any situation where a marginalized group is trying to have their rights respected. I'm pretty sure I mentioned it when I talked about people impersonating members of a group to make them look bad, cause division or to justify violent retaliation.

Well, a few issues seem salient. Perhaps all women do not equate money with success. It may not be their singular priority in life. It certainly is with many men (to their detriment). How would you quantify this prioritisation? Perhaps by rewarding them with more money. I think the highly prioritised chase for financial success is ridiculous and is secondary to nurturing oneself and family. Women seem to manage this prioritisation better than men.

Anyway, on average in relation to 2000 odd clients I am intimately familiar with, I see no difference in wages whatsoever.

Like I said, there's a lot of variation along a number of factors. The whole wage gap thing is is based on national statistics calculating averages and medians. You simply don't have the sample pool to see it on that scale and you need to consider a number of variables like the industry, marital status, works hours, how long they've had that job, age and so on. A lot of the statistics are also about the US rather than Australia. The stuff with the movie industry is mostly about Hollywood, for example. Additionally, people visiting the US have noted that women have less rights there than in their own country, and most of the commentary about those issues is from the US.

Here's a video citing some studies on the topic and what it all means when put together in relation to the US: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13XU...ab_channel=Vox

Just because it's a bigger problem elsewhere doesn't mean it doesn't exist where you live. There's also far more to deal with than just the wage gap.

Today I read that Vin Diesel puts the most arses on seats in cinemas. Arses on seats. I think that is a pretty good measure of the worth of an actor and is pretty much all that is necessary to determine their worth. I think he is a pathetic actor, but clearly he is doing something right makes a bucket load of money and will probably make less money when his biceps shrink to the size of his brain.


I said:
"Australia is way past any suggestion of inequality in this regard in my opinion." I was clearly talking about any perceived wage gaps. I am sure the men and women receive equal amounts of nothing at the detention camps though if that helps.

Statistically, they'd face a different ratio of problems. Women are still more likely to get raped, while men probably get beaten more.

Discrimination all ties into each other. The existence of one increases the odds of another and like I said above, there's far more to inequality than differences in pay. There's still some work to do before it's all fully resolved and Australia does have a wage gap even if you haven't personally noticed it:

http://www.humanrightsactionplan.org.au/nhrap/focus-area/womens-rights

https://www.humanrights.gov.au/education/face-facts/face-facts-gender-equality

You need to remember that there are people who took part in the suffragette movement still alive today and that a lot of the progress made is relatively recent. People still remember worse times.

Anyway, in relation to the article, in isolation it is a little offensive to me. But when you read her constant themes, it's evident she has an axe to grind on the throats of men.

The notion of "mansplaining" is ridiculous. If a man needed that kind of help, another man would simply tell him to fuck off and work it out himself. But women have a remarkable ability to extract information that men do not. It is yet another sign of their ability that they can even summon the goodwill of another human being so readily.

She's just pointing out various forms of discrimination towards women in the context of things that come from biases people aren't always aware of having. I find the notion that such a thing warrants being declared a man hater rather concerning. It's like people talking about the racial discrimination they experience getting called racist for the simply for trying to make people aware of the subtler biases involved. The article doesn't even have an angry tone to the wording.

It's generally a good idea to actually listen to what women have to say about what they themselves experience. Sometimes things have to be spelled out for people to get it. The need to have the people being discriminated against speak out and be heard is why there are feminist organisations focused on specific issues such as men helping other men deal with rape and abuse and shelters that specifically accommodate a particular subcategory of abuse victims, such as a battered women's shelter where they can be safe and away from men and some shelters geared towards trans women and their particular needs.

Men telling other men to screw off doesn't truly solve the problem. Women want to be able to have people actually listen when they do that themselves. It's more helpful to tell those men to listen to what women have to say about their experiences and just generally help them be heard rather than doing the speaking for them. That's why the whole damsel in distress thing is harmful too and perpetuates problems of its own.

Women with degrees regularly have their field of study explained to them by people who don't know as much about it or have their knowledge and authority challenged simply because they're a woman. Even when talking about more general stuff they're likely to be treated condescendingly and at times are literally shushed or told to shut up. In day to day, you get stuff like female comic or videogame fans being expected to know a plethora of obscure trivia about what they like to "prove" that they're a "real" fan despite making up a large portion of the demographic for those things. The article specifically referenced interruptions at board meetings and I've heard plenty of stories of women having to deal with that before I ever even heard the word mansplaining.

The first step is interruption. Women are statistically more likely to be interrupted and talked over while men tend to dominate most conversations. Women try and explain their personal experiences with catcalling, get interrupted and then have it mansplained to them because "I'm more of an expert on this than you because I'm a guy and know what we think." He then goes on to mansplain what women like despite having clearly been told by actual women he interrupted that they don't. It wasn't even about what men think but rather why women don't consider catcalling a compliment.

Anyway, as for the rest .... my response was never going to get published in this brave new world we live in. For the benefit of posterity, here it is:


Men can have opinions too. These matters do not affect me. I mostly employ women as I prefer their empathy with my clients and I have never offended them in my workplace and I pay them over industry standards.(In fact, I have only ever raised my voice and sworn at one of my male employees. He took it like a man. I would never have done that to any of my female employees. Is this discrimination?) But my adult sons will have to tough it out in this new world. I fear for them. Roles have changed dramatically over the last 30 years and I am far from convinced anything is considered normal anymore. How on earth are they going to be the strong and capable achievers yet at the same time be completely non-intimidating docile men that women are insisting upon nowadays. Men are lost (in the developed world) and women will see the consequences over the next 30 years.

Everyone who lives in a society with discriminatory norms is affected by it. People get conditioned to perpetuate those norms and biases and it can take effort to become aware of that. While you don't consciously perpetuate such things, you're still capable of perpetuating the biases you have but don't acknowledge. The anger you felt for that article is an example of that. Why does a woman talking about problems she and other women have faced but that you don't consider yourself involved in anger you? As something other men have perpetuated, would you not be capable of separating yourself from that? Could it be that on some level you feel targeted by this article, like it applies to you? Really think about where those feelings come from and whether or not there's a rational basis to them.

People are entirely capable of interacting with and having good relations with people from groups they discriminate against and likewise people who perpetuate discriminatory mindsets can go about their lives without really thinking about it. Your view on women's expectations of men is flawed. Being polite, respectful and non-violent with others doesn't make you weak as your comment of docility seems to be meant to convey. Breaking out of unhealthy societal standards that condition men to act in those ways isn't some disaster we'll need to learn "the error of our ways" about in 30 years. Like I've said before, the same societal standards that hurt women hurt men too.

The expectation that men bottle up their emotions lest they seem weak leaves them unable to properly cope with them, making them more susceptible to anger problems, depression, anxiety and so on. That violence and insecurity fuels a hell of a lot of hate crimes and discrimination, so society is overall better off without all that. In a future where they've been fully addressed, men will be more comfortable with who they are as they can freely express themselves emotionally and in their interests without being derided for not being part of the conventional idea of masculinity. Women will be treated as equals and everyone will be able to better collaborate on things.

It's pretty common for people to have "not all _" as a kneejerk response to things but when you sit down and really think about it, it misses the point of what they're reacting to and is the result of how society has conditioned them to respond. I brought up the racism comparison before. There's something to be said about simply saying "I'm racist" in acknowledgement to your racial biases and to be ready to accept that you're likely to make some uninformed or unintentionally stereotypical comment at some point someone will correct you about. Likewise, you should acknowledge that you're going to have comparable biases about women and to be ready to have them pointed out when you make such comments. Life is a perpetual journey of learning and self-improvement and there's no such thing as perfection or complete lack of bias. It's also why I tell people that selfishness is inherent in human nature and that learning to extend that to communities and mutual benefit doesn't change that inherent pursuit of self-interest. Psychology is an interesting subject and illustrates quite well why bias is such an inherent part of our lives.

If the thread was about how Macedonia is going to the dogs, I'd agree. But this is about women and is very much related to why many Macedonian women believe the grass will be greener if they marry outside their culture.

Marrying outside your cultural and ethnic group is a statistical inevitability. In order to preserve Macedonian culture you need to accept that this is a natural consequence of globalization and to adapt accordingly by learning to keep the culture alive despite this. It's not something that'll magically stop happening even without the other stuff like blaming women for finding love elsewhere. My dad didn't marry a French Canadian because he couldn't find a Macedonian girlfriend. Pretty much all my uncles on my mother's side married women from various ethnic and cultural backgrounds. Just treat your in-laws like family and invite them to take part in Macedonian customs. As I recall multiculturalism goes way back in Macedonian tradition.

[Risto the Great]

If the thread was about how Macedonia is going to the dogs, I'd agree. But this is about women and is very much related to why many Macedonian women believe the grass will be greener if they marry outside their culture.

[Skolovranec]

Another great thread with an even greater point going off the rails and becoming a modern feminism debate.

Why am I not surprised?

[Risto the Great]

In my experience the term mens rights is mostly used by mysogynists lashing out against Feminism or people who make fallacious arguments devaluing the need for women's rights. Didn't I just explain how Feminism seeks to address double standards that hurt men too and are the largest advocates for taking male rape and abuse victims seriously? It's about being on equal footing, so it's not hurting men at all and it's not a women only group. The same double standards basically hurt everyone in different ways so recognizing the different facets of it and addressing all of them is a part of Feminism.

You are generalising by assuming anyone concerned about men's rights must be a misogynist. A real feminist should be equally concerned with men's rights. Men should have no less rights than women.

Anyway there is a wage gap. Plenty of women can attest to that and if you compare the richest men and women you can see a rather large gap between the two. They may not be representative of the average salary but they're basically the ceiling and having it noticeably lower for women than men raises some questions on how that looks in other classes.

Well, a few issues seem salient. Perhaps all women do not equate money with success. It may not be their singular priority in life. It certainly is with many men (to their detriment). How would you quantify this prioritisation? Perhaps by rewarding them with more money. I think the highly prioritised chase for financial success is ridiculous and is secondary to nurturing oneself and family. Women seem to manage this prioritisation better than men.

Anyway, on average in relation to 2000 odd clients I am intimately familiar with, I see no difference in wages whatsoever.

There's also a discrepancy in the movie industry as well as other issues like how much harder it is to get certain jobs as a woman or how female actresses get less roles past a certain age.

Today I read that Vin Diesel puts the most arses on seats in cinemas. Arses on seats. I think that is a pretty good measure of the worth of an actor and is pretty much all that is necessary to determine their worth. I think he is a pathetic actor, but clearly he is doing something right makes a bucket load of money and will probably make less money when his biceps shrink to the size of his brain.

I guess you never heard about those off-shore detention camps and all the horrible things that've happened there

I said:
"Australia is way past any suggestion of inequality in this regard in my opinion." I was clearly talking about any perceived wage gaps. I am sure the men and women receive equal amounts of nothing at the detention camps though if that helps.

Anyway, in relation to the article, in isolation it is a little offensive to me. But when you read her constant themes, it's evident she has an axe to grind on the throats of men.

The notion of "mansplaining" is ridiculous. If a man needed that kind of help, another man would simply tell him to fuck off and work it out himself. But women have a remarkable ability to extract information that men do not. It is yet another sign of their ability that they can even summon the goodwill of another human being so readily.

Anyway, as for the rest .... my response was never going to get published in this brave new world we live in. For the benefit of posterity, here it is:

Tory Shepherd, looking rather alluring in her picture, warns us of and off men with the comparison of the criminal behaviour of Harvey Weinstein and other mere men who may be tempted to look at women longer than it takes for them to be scorned. Perhaps the best man is a dead man, I am optimistic I won't notice the breasts or buttocks of attractive women when I finally kick the bucket. Allow me to break the male code for a moment and reveal that when a woman turns around, most men will glance at the woman for no other reason than perhaps genetics and maybe some kind of neanderthal based code deep within us. The same code perhaps makes women want to appear desirable to the opposite sex.

Maybe Tory is looking at her father's generation for racial inequalities and sexism. I was out at dinner in a a rather expensive restaurant last weekend and witnessed tables full of young women enjoying an expensive night out with their (female) friends. I suspect their young male friends were still looking for jobs after spending their youth trying to be the right level of rebelliousness mixed with strength, sensitivity, charm and a whisper of useful education along with any other thing that might help them fit into this rapidly changing world.

Lisa Wilikinson was promoted as a victim of gender inequality and we subsequently learned she had financial deals on the side and was aiming to earn more than Karl for less contractual work. Does anyone really believe this financial inequality anymore? I hope to see more examples of meritocracy in this day and age, but in fact we are seeing little more than mandated rewards. Get a Muslim on TV (or whatever job). Get a woman on TV. Get a black person on TV. Get a black, Muslim woman on TV ... BINGO!

Jokey insults, complimenting and "white knighting" are indeed terrible things to endure. They are positively infuriating and utterly offensive when an ugly guy does any of these things! If he is a drop dead gorgeous man, all of these terrible things will most likely result in long term relationships. Terrible!

I do appreciate your acknowledgement of men also being picked on as bumblers and wanting better work life balances. I see the bumblers on TV all the time nowadays. You missed a few others. It is thoroughly documented how women can verbally abuse, belittle, or humiliate men in front of friends, colleagues, or family, or on social media sites. Be possessive, act jealous, or harass men with accusations of being unfaithful. Try to control where men go and who they see. Try to control how they spend money or deliberately default on joint financial obligations. Make false allegations about them to his friends, employer, or the police, or find other ways to manipulate and isolate men. Attack them in their sleep. Threaten to leave them and prevent them from seeing their kids if they report the abuse.

Sexual, emotional, psychological, verbal and financial abuse; property damage and social isolation are all very real and not limited to males, but to suggest women are not capable of perpetrating such violence against men would be an insult to their capabilities honed from being typically the physically weaker sex.

Having said all of that, I much prefer the company of women. I enjoy their conversations and their willingness to admit their feelings and concerns. It's a rare occasion when a man shows that level sensitivity for fear of vulnerability.

Perhaps Tory and I can discuss this further over dinner, but I would have to insist she pays so as not to offend.

Men can have opinions too. These matters do not affect me. I mostly employ women as I prefer their empathy with my clients and I have never offended them in my workplace and I pay them over industry standards.(In fact, I have only ever raised my voice and sworn at one of my male employees. He took it like a man. I would never have done that to any of my female employees. Is this discrimination?) But my adult sons will have to tough it out in this new world. I fear for them. Roles have changed dramatically over the last 30 years and I am far from convinced anything is considered normal anymore. How on earth are they going to be the strong and capable achievers yet at the same time be completely non-intimidating docile men that women are insisting upon nowadays. Men are lost (in the developed world) and women will see the consequences over the next 30 years.

[Starling]

I find Canadians to be very similar to Australians. (Aside from their ridiculous accents haha).

It's easy to assume that due to British influence but they're there when you know to look for them.

Anyway, I am very much an advocate for men's rights nowadays. I have over 2000 taxation clients in my firm and I see no evidence whatsoever that women earn less than men in Australia. I even have one female client on half a million dollars a year who freely admits she keeps getting pay rises because she is a woman and they want more females on the board of the organisation she is employed by.

In my experience the term mens rights is mostly used by mysogynists lashing out against Feminism or people who make fallacious arguments devaluing the need for women's rights. Didn't I just explain how Feminism seeks to address double standards that hurt men too and are the largest advocates for taking male rape and abuse victims seriously? It's about being on equal footing, so it's not hurting men at all and it's not a women only group. The same double standards basically hurt everyone in different ways so recognizing the different facets of it and addressing all of them is a part of Feminism.

Anyway there is a wage gap. Plenty of women can attest to that and if you compare the richest men and women you can see a rather large gap between the two. They may not be representative of the average salary but they're basically the ceiling and having it noticeably lower for women than men raises some questions on how that looks in other classes.

There's also a discrepancy in the movie industry as well as other issues like how much harder it is to get certain jobs as a woman or how female actresses get less roles past a certain age.

It's been getting better so in some places the gap may have been resolved but it's not universal and it can vary from one industry to another. A workplace or industry with a decent gender ratio isn't as likely to have that problem as one that's still mostly men. You also need to factor in what country you're talking about, how long they've worked at that particular job, how many hours and the kind of workload they get. Stuff like this can vary a lot based on a number of factors.

Australia is way past any suggestion of inequality in this regard in my opinion.

I guess you never heard about those off-shore detention camps and all the horrible things that've happened there:

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2016/nov/13/offshore-detention-nauru-immigration-history-human-rights

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/pitiful-plight-refugees-locked-up-9743949

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-31827074

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/our-detention-centres-are-intentionally-cruel-and-must-be-closed-20160504-golr04.html

And hasn't Australia had a rocky relationship with Macedonians?

Honestly, even Canada, that place everyone apparently likes that's fondly regarded for its good living conditions still has problems with racism and human rights issues. No one is past that no matter how bad some are in relation to others. People who headed the Civil Rights movement and are still alive say today is a lot worse in some ways because the racism hides in plain sight and a lot of people are ignorant of the ways they contribute to it even if they aren't the ones personally doing any of it. The way people think "it's all in the past" because it's not part of the things they experience. That's actually what being privileged refers to; the luxury not to worry about those things because it doesn't personally affect you, how easy it is to get complacent on those issues if you don't inform yourself.

After the holocaust people thought long and hard on how such a thing could happen, how culpable people were by standing by and letting it happen and just generally studying the psychology behind it. Now holocaust survivors are outright spelling out how strongly current events remind them of the time leading up to it and it's like no one actually learned anything from it all. This is exactly why it's so important to be informed of past events and how they relate to current ones. "those who forget history are doomed to repeat it." It doesn't even have to be a 1:1 comparison to see how different things relate to each other.

There is a female journalist who goes out of her way to push her version of feminism. This article had me livid, tell me what you think:


Genuinely curious what people think of this. I wrote a response but was never published. Happy to post here after you guys(inclusive) respond.

What part makes you angry exactly? Is it the part where she summarizes phenomena that actually happen? Unconscious biases exist and everyone has them. The trick is to try and be aware of them and to be willing to learn better. Like, my school had a fad where people were using an expression that came from discriminatory mindsets, a teacher sat us down and explained to us not only that is was but why and then everyone stopped and found some other expression to use instead. It's really no big deal and continuing to use it after knowing what it really means in its full social context just wouldn't be acceptable. These are all learned behaviours.

Jokey Insults:

Jokes aren't as harmless as people seem to think. People use them in order to gauge what's considered socially appropriate and not taking the patronizing ones seriously can breed bigotry. They matter. As for appropriate joke-making, punch up, not down.

Mansplaining:

It's a thing. Basically if you have reason to believe they already know about something, just ask if they know and if they do, just have a balanced exchange like comparing specific fields or differing philosophies on whatever it is.

'Compliments':

Note the air quotes. The issue here is that unsolicited sexualization of a woman's body isn't really considered a compliment. You can still compliment someone's appearance but don't go "nice ass" or something to a complete stranger. It's pretty much about being mindful of what you say, the context and whether or not the person you're talking to is comfortable with where it's going.

White Knight:

Basically just a reminder to take agency into consideration and to avoiding things that would take away their ability to make their own decisions and actions. Sometimes helping is as simple as giving someone some breathing room so they can take it from there.

And then the timeless 'don't be a dick'. In prettier words, it's basically the same as 'do unto others as you would like to have done to yourself'.

[Risto the Great]

I find Canadians to be very similar to Australians. (Aside from their ridiculous accents haha).

Anyway, I am very much an advocate for men's rights nowadays. I have over 2000 taxation clients in my firm and I see no evidence whatsoever that women earn less than men in Australia. I even have one female client on half a million dollars a year who freely admits she keeps getting pay rises because she is a woman and they want more females on the board of the organisation she is employed by.

Australia is way past any suggestion of inequality in this regard in my opinion.

There is a female journalist who goes out of her way to push her version of feminism. This article had me livid, tell me what you think:

It’s not that hard to avoid being a jerk

EVERYONE is a little bit sexist, just like everyone is a little bit racist. We have stereotypes buried in our psyches from such an early age, it’s impossible for even the most rational mind to entirely get rid of them. But we have to try.

We have to try to do that through conscious recognition of our biases, and through conscious changing of our environments so each generation is a little less bigoted that the last.

There has been a fairly horrifying wave of sexual assault stories hitting the media these last couple of weeks.

In the face of these tales of rape, threats, and intimidation, yesterday’s report into everyday sexism might just seem a little... everyday.

The Male Champions of Change Institute released We Set The Tone: Eliminating Everyday Sexism against a backdrop of far more violent behaviour.

But it is more important than ever that everyday sexism is not dismissed.

You don’t have to be a Hands-on Harvey to be helping support the stereotypes and sick culture that can ultimately lead to rape and sexual assault.

That’s not to say that everyone who gives you a wink and calls you “love” will go on to hurt anyone; of course not. But gender inequality is the primary cause of violence against women and everyday sexism helps perpetuate gender inequality.

It’s complicated, true, to know what is sexist. There are different norms in different places, and every relationship has its own complexities to navigate. There are things said in robust workplaces between long-time colleagues that would never be said in other contexts.

But to give up on everyday sexism as political correctness gone mad is to be part of the system that produces the Weinsteins of the world. Those who blame PC just want to say whatever they want without retribution.

And it is hard — sometimes damnably hard — to work out when you’re crossing one of those lines. Luckily, women are totally humans and you can generally ask one about it.

You may not get an honest answer if, say, you’re the boss of the corporation and you’re grilling the new recruit. But somewhere in your life there is probably someone who can help guide you through the sexism minefield. Or look it up.

Or sit down and have a long hard think about it. To get you started, here’s some of the sorts of scenarios where you want to look out for hidden difficulties.

JOKEY INSULTS

The Male Champions report says this is the most common type of everyday sexism. One of the examples they give is: “Make sure you wear your low-cut top to meet with that client!”.

Obviously the first problem with this as a jokey insult is that it in no way can be described as joke. Not even a fall-down drunk Benny Hill fan would get a chuckle out of that one (surely).

Second problem? It’s outright insulting. And closely related to “negging”, which I wrote about briefly last week.

MANSPLAINING

Everyone should be familiar with this old chestnut by now. Mansplaining is when a man takes particular and meticulous care to explain to a woman something she already knows quite a bit about. A related bit of everyday sexism is talking over women in meetings, a common trait of the alpha male. Or, as Foreign Minister Julie Bishop found, applauding a woman’s idea when it comes out of a man’s mouth.

‘COMPLIMENTS’

This is a really tough one for some guys (apparently). There is no blanket rule about complimenting women, but do avoid: leering in the general direction of breasts or buttocks, only ever mentioning how women look/dress/walk, any situation where you might be deemed to be intimidating said woman. If you think you’ve sailed too close to the wind, look out for an eyeroll or an embarrassed look, they’re often giveaways.

THE WHITE KNIGHT

The White Knight can also be a hard one — and they are generally very well-intentioned. They are eager to support women in the workplace, to stand up for them.

Like a noble hero riding in to rescue the poor damsel in distress. Thus making the woman look (and feel) like some hopeless victim who can’t cope on her own.

Speaking of stereotypes; I’ve used my own here. Of course sexism can go both ways. Men are often picked on as being bumblers about the home, or judged harshly for wanting some work/life balance. And they can be harassed or assaulted, too.

And women can be sexist to other women about how they dress, speak and act. But the fact is most sexism is about power and in most places men still have most power.

You might think everyday sexism is minor, but think about how it piles up through someone’s life; how it normalises the idea of men holding sway over women.

There’s a straightforward answer to how to stop women being assaulted. Stop assaulting them.

While insulting them can have greyer areas, it’s really not that hard to work out how not to be a dick.

Tory Shepherd is the Adelaide Advertiser political editor.

Genuinely curious what people think of this. I wrote a response but was never published. Happy to post here after you guys(inclusive) respond.

[Pelagonija]

I do have a lot of contempt for my fellow Macedonians, what are we doing as people for me to be proud of. Call it superiority, call it what ever you want, I stand by my judgments, which come from countless interactions with the very people I am judging. Due to unfortunate circumstances I grew up differently, there was no time to be a mama's boy. I married who I married by chance not by plan. You have shown your true cowardice on multiple occasions trying to get under my skin by insulting my wife. You are a coward of the highest order, and have more than once referenced intelligence and superiority, my friend that is your own insecurity showing through. You are probably a pathetic lonely human being who gets his jollies by trolling over the internet. I've been happily married for 8 years and have no lost my ambition for these matters, unlike you I actually try and do something about it. Also its a shame that you aren't married, I cant imagine why. Don't worry though its easier now more than ever to live alone you will make it. Trust me if anyone is wasting their time here its you. As I've told you before you provide absolutely no value what so ever. Now run along and let the grown ups have a decent conversation. Grow up and maybe you won't be so lonely.

You can say what ever you want form now on. You are not worth the minimal exertions of key strokes. Insult me, my wife, what ever else that pathetic excuse for a brain can come up with. All I can say to you is pray that we never cross paths.

Merry Christmas, Happy New Years. From me and the Wife.

Thanks Cobb merry Xmas to you and the family and all the best in 2018 from your lonely friend

Mate just try and be a bit more positive in 2018.. your negativity is a bit over the top and truly depressing..

BTW didn't Vardar win the men's euro league? That's something to be proud of hehehe

[vicsinad]

A very interesting topic.

[Starling]

Being of a younger generation, I actually sympathize with women on this one. I did the whole corporate thing for a while and some of the overt harassment was disgusting, and whether it was tolerated or not was always proportional to how powerful the harasser was. At the end of the day I saw first hand how women were put in a position of either speaking out, or being out of a job. For a mom who needs to feed a family its not a choice, and that is truly sad. To make matters even worse, many women who spoke up, only saw them lose their jobs while the harasser went unpunished.

Yeah, pretty much. That's the gist of why a lot of them don't bother reporting it. The problems seen with workplace discrimination and sexual harassment are ultimately just one of many ways wealthier and more powerful individuals abuse their positions, which is why it's such a widespread problem.

Its unfortunate that the face of this problem is the big names, the famous people, they are not representative of the every day struggle that average women face. These well publicized cases are always going to attract false accusers. The real injustices are in corporate hell holes, and everyday jobs.

False accusers aren't as common as people tend to claim. There're far too many downsides for it to be worthwhile and it's more often and excuse to dismiss legitimate victims than as a legitimate problem, not that those don't happen too. It wouldn't be as well known if it hadn't been a cascading effect of all the sexual harassment going on among celebrities. Some of them are as simple as digging up old videos and interviews when they weren't even bothering to hide it and an actual reform in that regard would inevitably get this kind of publicity.

As for feminism, just like any other movement, you will have extremists, the uniformed, ill informed, the opportunists, etc. Plenty of legitimate grievances based on centuries of injustice. Unfortunately sometimes it lends to man hating. Young girls are really a weird phenomenon. They have a mix of feminism and entitlement which obviously oppose one another. Old school feminists wanted to be treated as equals full stop, younger feminists, want to be treated equal in certain situations, and then want preferential treatment in others.

There's a passage somewhere explaining why feminism is called feminism. As a philosophy the idea was to correct the imbalance between men and women by raising women up to equal footing with men. There was something about not wanting people to misconstrue it as taking rights away from men to do so and it definitely isn't about hating men or creating the opposite problem in relation to double standards, as that wouldn't be equality either.

Another problem is that with movements like that it's not just people who don't get what it's actually about but also actual, genuine plants who pretend to be members of the group but are actually just trying to do shitty stuff with the name attached to delegitimize them and justify their discrimination. Feminism has a big problem with that, hence misconceptions about what feminism actually is.

Similarly I recall the Mexican government paying some people to infiltrate protests, turn them into riots and loot stuff to justify police brutality against the actual protesters. It's a really insidious variant of the divide and conquer strategy the privileged few use against the marginalized populations.

This image best sums up accommodations in relation to systemic issues and why people shouldn't always be treated exactly the same:



The ideal situation is to remove the systemic problems so accessibility becomes an non-issue but if that's not an option then it's important to remember that not everyone needs the same accommodations in order to end up on equal footing and to know the difference between that and preferential treatment, as they can get mixed up sometimes.

I also don't feel particularly bad for most of these men who are accused. Most don't eve realize what they have done is wrong, that is the root of the whole problem. Having dated and worked with many women form many backgrounds, I can say without doubt that I have never even came close to crossing a boundary. When I hear the things people are accused of, I think to myself, wtf were you thinking, how could you even assume that was ok. You don't need to be a pig to court a woman, and more often than not it seems to be the men who couldn't otherwise successfully court a woman who resort to manipulation and harassment. Having said that, some of theses women also have no right to complain. "Well I went up to his hotel room, but I was shocked when he exposed himself" Really? Were you? Many women put themselves in these situations, then regret it and want to put the blame on someone else. Young girls need to be taught to make good decisions and not always expect someone else to watch out for them. Going to a college party, getting piss drunk, not remembering what you did, finding out you may have had sex, considering that as rape, is a bit of a stretch. In many instances like that society takes all the responsibility of one party and puts it on the other. Although its disgusting to have sex with someone who is piss drunk, at some point people need to take responsibility for themselves. Its all very complicated and I am so glad that I am happily married and can avoid all of it.

I once got kicked out of a chatroom for insulting someone for sexually harassing me. Obviously it was run by assholes and the only reason I was still there by then was because I was busy arguing. In the brief time I was there, I noticed some rather patronizing notions on things people find offensive. They basically just assumed anyone who took issue with offensive comments as whiny children who needed to grow up or be put in their place. Groups like that basically create their own reasoning and then reinforce it among themselves to perpetuate it until they forget that's not how the world actually works. It's a sociological phenomenon that has a name I can't remember at the moment but I've seen that kind of thing elsewhere as well. It involves echo-chambers but there's more to it than that.

There are plenty of reasons to visit someone's hotel room without having sex and even people who initially go into something for sex have the right to change their mind or withdraw consent, at which point it should stop. No one should be pressured into continuing with something they no longer feel comfortable with. You don't just take visiting you as "yes, please show me your dick with absolutely no indication that we're supposed to be engaging in foreplay. I totally agreed to this without actually saying so". Also you shouldn't be legally capable of offering consent when intoxicated due to your altered mental state. That's how date rape happens. Stuff like secretly removing a condom while having sex, impersonating someone else or otherwise withholding relevant information about the whole thing can also make it rape. Marital rape is also something that exists, so being in a relationship doesn't entitle you to engaging in sexual activities whenever without considering whether or not your spouse is into it.

Part of the problem is how they got socialized. No one bats an eye if a girl has a male role model but boys are discouraged from having female ones. The male perspective is treated as the default and female ones as boring, niche or girls only. That teaches people from an early age that women have less value than men.

Then you have general parenting issues like not taking your children seriously when they make valid and logical points due to being your kids, never acknowledging when they prove you wrong because how dare your child know better for once and coddling the little brat of the lot and then being surprised when he grows up to be an asshole when he was never actually reprimanded for anything in his life. This tends to be the biggest issue with the youngest, since people tend to baby them the longest. Additionally responding to complaints about a sibling's behaviour with telling them to just put up with it or avoid them is basically telling them to be a doormat, fails to actually address the problem and is overall really bad advice.

A common observation in relation to men who perpetuate discrimination is that they tend to be insecure and hurt others to feel better about themselves. Really that's what it comes down to, the pressure to conform to this really narrow idea of what a "real" man should be, which encompasses a boatload of really unhealthy stuff like bottling up your emotions, never asking for help, staying away from anything "girly" and forcing yourself to do "manly" stuff even if you don't like it just to feel accepted in society, the pressure to be violent in order to affirm your "masculinity" and so on.

Pink used to be a manly colour and then got shunned as girly because it became associated with women. High heels used to be perfectly normal for men until women started wearing them. As I mentioned in another thread, boys up to around 13-15 used to wear dresses. The only reason videogames are stereotyped as for boys is because they ended up sticking it in the boys toy aisle and marketing it accordingly. Women are actually make up the majority of comic book readers right now and there are a few relatively recent cases of tv shows getting cancelled simply because most of their audience was female when they wanted to market to boys. Some of those shows are the ones based on comics so logically the mostly female comic readers would like those too.

Bottling up emotions makes people frustrated, depressed and unable to properly handle their own emotions. Add to that the expectation of violence to affirm themselves and the constant insecurities of not being "manly enough" and that's why you get so many violent or hateful men who mistreat women or other "acceptable targets", men who feel entitled to anything they want even at the expense of others and high rates of depression and suicide. Toxic masculinity in a nutshell.

By the way, some stereotypes are damn true. In my accounting days, I ran a Canadian subsidiary for a while, and let me tell you, Canadians are so damn polite. The difference between typical American correspondence was glaring. I loved it when i had to get on the phone with someone from Canada, even your government employees are polite. Do you have any idea what happens when you call and American government agency? I don't think I ever spoke to even one rude Canadian.

I've said thank you to cashiers who said thank you to me because I honestly don't know who's supposed to say thank you at the end of the transaction anymore and it doesn't really matter in the end. I don't really get why the stereotype is so fixated on "sorry" though. I don't really get the aboot thing either. My general understanding is that it's not the same sound difference and people just don't know how to describe it properly.

I've been to the US briefly one time but I didn't really talk to anyone so I don't really know how different it is on average. I gotta ask, what the hell do you put in your food? Even the chocolate tastes less healthy. I know there's growth hormones in the meat but that doesn't really explain this one.

The rude Canadians are busy driving in Montreal. Also french Canadian profanity is truly an art.

This is probably not the right thread for this conversation, maybe we could create another one for this topic. You also touched on the pedophile, who I assume was Roy Moore from Alabama. That was a head scratcher but the reason for it, is much more dangerous than people wanting to elect a pedophile over a liberal.

Yeah but I don't have time to refresh my memory on the dumpster fire called American politics right now and it was a good enough summation since it wasn't the main point of discussion and kept it short. We could stand to at least have more threads about political systems, concepts and societal trends for the sake of learning how they work, why they are the way they are and how to address those problems. I'm kinda busy collecting citations for the other thread I made but I have some stuff I could add to a thread like that. If you want to make a thread about Roy Moore specifically then you can probably go into more detail about that than I can at the moment.

[Gocka]

Very insightful and thoughtful.

Being of a younger generation, I actually sympathize with women on this one. I did the whole corporate thing for a while and some of the overt harassment was disgusting, and whether it was tolerated or not was always proportional to how powerful the harasser was. At the end of the day I saw first hand how women were put in a position of either speaking out, or being out of a job. For a mom who needs to feed a family its not a choice, and that is truly sad. To make matters even worse, many women who spoke up, only saw them lose their jobs while the harasser went unpunished.

Its unfortunate that the face of this problem is the big names, the famous people, they are not representative of the every day struggle that average women face. These well publicized cases are always going to attract false accusers. The real injustices are in corporate hell holes, and everyday jobs.

As for feminism, just like any other movement, you will have extremists, the uniformed, ill informed, the opportunists, etc. Plenty of legitimate grievances based on centuries of injustice. Unfortunately sometimes it lends to man hating. Young girls are really a weird phenomenon. They have a mix of feminism and entitlement which obviously oppose one another. Old school feminists wanted to be treated as equals full stop, younger feminists, want to be treated equal in certain situations, and then want preferential treatment in others.

Lately there are too many loud mouths inserting themselves in these issues that cheapen the actual movements.

I also don't feel particularly bad for most of these men who are accused. Most don't eve realize what they have done is wrong, that is the root of the whole problem. Having dated and worked with many women form many backgrounds, I can say without doubt that I have never even came close to crossing a boundary. When I hear the things people are accused of, I think to myself, wtf were you thinking, how could you even assume that was ok. You don't need to be a pig to court a woman, and more often than not it seems to be the men who couldn't otherwise successfully court a woman who resort to manipulation and harassment. Having said that, some of theses women also have no right to complain. "Well I went up to his hotel room, but I was shocked when he exposed himself" Really? Were you? Many women put themselves in these situations, then regret it and want to put the blame on someone else. Young girls need to be taught to make good decisions and not always expect someone else to watch out for them. Going to a college party, getting piss drunk, not remembering what you did, finding out you may have had sex, considering that as rape, is a bit of a stretch. In many instances like that society takes all the responsibility of one party and puts it on the other. Although its disgusting to have sex with someone who is piss drunk, at some point people need to take responsibility for themselves. Its all very complicated and I am so glad that I am happily married and can avoid all of it.

By the way, some stereotypes are damn true. In my accounting days, I ran a Canadian subsidiary for a while, and let me tell you, Canadians are so damn polite. The difference between typical American correspondence was glaring. I loved it when i had to get on the phone with someone from Canada, even your government employees are polite. Do you have any idea what happens when you call and American government agency? I don't think I ever spoke to even one rude Canadian.

This is probably not the right thread for this conversation, maybe we could create another one for this topic. You also touched on the pedophile, who I assume was Roy Moore from Alabama. That was a head scratcher but the reason for it, is much more dangerous than people wanting to elect a pedophile over a liberal.

Fair enough. I hate that stuff for similar reasons and could go on at length on why society is like that. Part of it is that corporations basically manipulate people into certain mentalities for their convenience. Capitalism is a cruel and unsustainable system that's going to need to change or be replaced sometime soon and part of the means of addressing those problems is actually to go back to older, more self-sufficient ways of living to better cope with the impending economic turmoil.



I never said there weren't women who genuinely hated men for fallacious reasons. People like that exist too among everyone else. Not that long ago a disappointingly large amount of american women voted for a known pedophile because heaven forbid a liberal take his place. White women were also a non negligible demographic that voted for Trump. Thing is, when people complain about women mocking men and such they're usually talking about women who are voicing legitimate grievances with misogynistic behaviour or biases and only bring up women making actual discriminatory comments to retroactively justify condemning the women from the previous case, which is false equivalence.

Now regarding the thing with Matt Damon, the issue seems to be comparable to Tump's 'many sides' response to neo-nazis marching the streets spouting anti-semitic rhetoric like it's Nazi Germany all over again. Sexual harassment is sexual harassment. No one has to be told that the stuff that falls under sexual assault or workplace discrimination will be treated differently in the judicial system and that's not actually the current problem, but rather the need to hold people accountable for their sexual harassment as per the laws intended to address that. Basically he probably meant well but misunderstood the issue and inadvertently made a comment that doesn't really address the real problem and comes off as an excuse to downplay the "less severe" forms of sexual harassment. Filter it through the endless telephone game of social media, strip it of additional context and controversy was inevitable. Stuff like that isn't really representative of women being unreasonable so much as internet communication issues.


That's a stereotype, which have a tendency of being patronizing or downright offensive. While there's some truth to certain stereotypes Americans who don't fit them tend to dislike the ones applied to them, for example.

Canadian stereotypes aren't too bad but it likewise gets annoying to only ever see Canadians come up as those weird people from up north who drink maple syrup and speak in some weird accent I've never actually heard anyone use in real life, as well as the constant butchering of simple french words in a context where it's expected to be grammatically correct. Even the one about being polite can be used offensively as I once saw someone make a joke about drunk driving where the punchline is that the dying man who got hit by a car was Canadian and said sorry for being hit. Additionally in my experience the whole "eh" thing is more something you get with french speakers and it's actually an invitation to confirm your interest in the discussion or add to it yourself rather than something that gets randomly tacked on at the end of every other sentence. You also get variation in the exact sound as it's more of an onomatopoeia than and actual word.

Also the inexplicable clumsiness in commercials is partly from a number of advertised products being designed to assist people with disabilities or because advertisers don't know how else to emphasize how convenient their product is. They're pretty far removed from reality in general as most of the food in the food commercials aren't even edible and a hell of a lot of trickery is involved in advertising beauty products. Blatantly photoshopping models to create physically impossible beauty standards marketed as real, shaving hairless legs, removing lipstick to reveal lighter lipstick they pretend is the model's "natural" look, washing off obvious makeup but somehow still wearing makeup, etc.

Basically commercials are extremely manipulative and unrealistic.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the clumsy husband stereotype plays into expectations that the woman has to take care of the household because the man can't, which is an example of how the same standards that harm women harm men too but in different ways. In this case men are infantalized and conditioned to expect to be cared for rather than caring for themselves, which feeds into the stuff causing men to grow up feeling entitled to having women take care of them without any mutual cooperation involved, while women are expected to tend the household first and foremost and provide for others without expecting anything in return.

The solution to this is to expect self-sufficiency and mutual respect from everyone regardless of gender and to try and be aware of your own biases in that regard. Don't file any general life skills like cooking, cleaning and working as being for a particular gender and teach them to all your kids. Cooking in particular is especially relevant due to its cultural value and the importance of family recipes. It's also a pretty good bonding opportunity even if you stick to simple stuff.



Entirely true. While a lot of people misunderstand what feminism actually is and a lot of so-called feminists muddle it by failing to actually adhere to it, feminists are actually among the strongest advocates for male abuse victims. Like I said above, the same societal standards that harm women harm men too, so it's not just about women but rather problems with the current notion of gender roles.



NDAs, threats, coming out about their experiences coming with the risk of losing their livelihood, getting ostracized, having their reputation ran into the ground, getting stalked or threatened, getting sued for the aforementioned NDA, just generally being worse off while Weinsteen goes about his life unaffected, etc. Women came out about Trump's sexual harassment, actual video footage of things he's said has aired on the news, he literally got endorsed by Putin, Kim Jong Il and the KKK and people still voted to make him president. Not to mention all the people who voted for a pedophile. There's a lot of systematic bias discouraging women to put everything on the line with no actual resolution because more often than not they won't be taken seriously. There are plenty of stories of women attempting to report rape and either being brushed aside or getting blamed for what happened. How many of their abusers would go free and then possibly stalk or try to kill them. 20 years ago it was both unsafe and often futile to report sexual harassment and the sheer number of things discouraging it just weren't worth dealing with when they could quite literally ruin their chances at leading the life they were trying to have. It's only recently that there's really been a major breakthrough in undoing those biases and actually holding those men accountable for what they've done.

A while back there was a scandal about I forget which well known dictionary having a bunch of sexist definitions. Individually you would't really think too much about them but a collection of definitions ascribing negative associations to women in stereotypical contexts is pretty damning. Then there's inequality in pay for the same work, the general tendency to take women less seriously, constantly challenging their authority or demanding they prove their credentials when men are just taken as is and a myriad little things people don't think about like the tendency for men to take up space while women are expected to give it, that women are expected to move out of the way while men just keep going on their set path, how women get criticized for covering up too much as well as covering too little, how dress codes generally restrict what women wear "so as not to distract the men" rather than hold men accountable for their lustful inattentiveness and so on.

[Starling]

I don't think all women do. Just look at all the selfies online. It has permeated all levels of culture and none of it is good. The middle class is the host for the cancer that eats society. We fund it and allow it to thrive.

Fair enough. I hate that stuff for similar reasons and could go on at length on why society is like that. Part of it is that corporations basically manipulate people into certain mentalities for their convenience. Capitalism is a cruel and unsustainable system that's going to need to change or be replaced sometime soon and part of the means of addressing those problems is actually to go back to older, more self-sufficient ways of living to better cope with the impending economic turmoil.

I see Matt Damon is now the enemy of all women because he stated there were varying degrees of problems in society. In my mind this is hardly a controversial statement.

I never said there weren't women who genuinely hated men for fallacious reasons. People like that exist too among everyone else. Not that long ago a disappointingly large amount of american women voted for a known pedophile because heaven forbid a liberal take his place. White women were also a non negligible demographic that voted for Trump. Thing is, when people complain about women mocking men and such they're usually talking about women who are voicing legitimate grievances with misogynistic behaviour or biases and only bring up women making actual discriminatory comments to retroactively justify condemning the women from the previous case, which is false equivalence.

Now regarding the thing with Matt Damon, the issue seems to be comparable to Tump's 'many sides' response to neo-nazis marching the streets spouting anti-semitic rhetoric like it's Nazi Germany all over again. Sexual harassment is sexual harassment. No one has to be told that the stuff that falls under sexual assault or workplace discrimination will be treated differently in the judicial system and that's not actually the current problem, but rather the need to hold people accountable for their sexual harassment as per the laws intended to address that. Basically he probably meant well but misunderstood the issue and inadvertently made a comment that doesn't really address the real problem and comes off as an excuse to downplay the "less severe" forms of sexual harassment. Filter it through the endless telephone game of social media, strip it of additional context and controversy was inevitable. Stuff like that isn't really representative of women being unreasonable so much as internet communication issues.

I am not sure about the mockery of men in your nation. But not a single television commercial paints men in a masculine role nowadays. They are all shown as dopey sorts who are only fit for lifting things outside.

That's a stereotype, which have a tendency of being patronizing or downright offensive. While there's some truth to certain stereotypes Americans who don't fit them tend to dislike the ones applied to them, for example.

Canadian stereotypes aren't too bad but it likewise gets annoying to only ever see Canadians come up as those weird people from up north who drink maple syrup and speak in some weird accent I've never actually heard anyone use in real life, as well as the constant butchering of simple french words in a context where it's expected to be grammatically correct. Even the one about being polite can be used offensively as I once saw someone make a joke about drunk driving where the punchline is that the dying man who got hit by a car was Canadian and said sorry for being hit. Additionally in my experience the whole "eh" thing is more something you get with french speakers and it's actually an invitation to confirm your interest in the discussion or add to it yourself rather than something that gets randomly tacked on at the end of every other sentence. You also get variation in the exact sound as it's more of an onomatopoeia than and actual word.

Also the inexplicable clumsiness in commercials is partly from a number of advertised products being designed to assist people with disabilities or because advertisers don't know how else to emphasize how convenient their product is. They're pretty far removed from reality in general as most of the food in the food commercials aren't even edible and a hell of a lot of trickery is involved in advertising beauty products. Blatantly photoshopping models to create physically impossible beauty standards marketed as real, shaving hairless legs, removing lipstick to reveal lighter lipstick they pretend is the model's "natural" look, washing off obvious makeup but somehow still wearing makeup, etc.

Basically commercials are extremely manipulative and unrealistic.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the clumsy husband stereotype plays into expectations that the woman has to take care of the household because the man can't, which is an example of how the same standards that harm women harm men too but in different ways. In this case men are infantalized and conditioned to expect to be cared for rather than caring for themselves, which feeds into the stuff causing men to grow up feeling entitled to having women take care of them without any mutual cooperation involved, while women are expected to tend the household first and foremost and provide for others without expecting anything in return.

The solution to this is to expect self-sufficiency and mutual respect from everyone regardless of gender and to try and be aware of your own biases in that regard. Don't file any general life skills like cooking, cleaning and working as being for a particular gender and teach them to all your kids. Cooking in particular is especially relevant due to its cultural value and the importance of family recipes. It's also a pretty good bonding opportunity even if you stick to simple stuff.

There are other forums dedicated to men who are abused by women and it is even more horrifying because they have no problems messing with the minds of their children as part of their strategy. It goes both ways and thankfully it isn't the majority of both sexes who feel the same about all of this.

Entirely true. While a lot of people misunderstand what feminism actually is and a lot of so-called feminists muddle it by failing to actually adhere to it, feminists are actually among the strongest advocates for male abuse victims. Like I said above, the same societal standards that harm women harm men too, so it's not just about women but rather problems with the current notion of gender roles.

Not that it really relates to anything, but why did all the women who were abused by Weinstein wait to achieve their success before complaining publicly about their abuse? This terrible behaviour could have been stamped out 20 years ago. Shame on them and the abuse on other women that could have been avoided.

NDAs, threats, coming out about their experiences coming with the risk of losing their livelihood, getting ostracized, having their reputation ran into the ground, getting stalked or threatened, getting sued for the aforementioned NDA, just generally being worse off while Weinsteen goes about his life unaffected, etc. Women came out about Trump's sexual harassment, actual video footage of things he's said has aired on the news, he literally got endorsed by Putin, Kim Jong Il and the KKK and people still voted to make him president. Not to mention all the people who voted for a pedophile. There's a lot of systematic bias discouraging women to put everything on the line with no actual resolution because more often than not they won't be taken seriously. There are plenty of stories of women attempting to report rape and either being brushed aside or getting blamed for what happened. How many of their abusers would go free and then possibly stalk or try to kill them. 20 years ago it was both unsafe and often futile to report sexual harassment and the sheer number of things discouraging it just weren't worth dealing with when they could quite literally ruin their chances at leading the life they were trying to have. It's only recently that there's really been a major breakthrough in undoing those biases and actually holding those men accountable for what they've done.

A while back there was a scandal about I forget which well known dictionary having a bunch of sexist definitions. Individually you would't really think too much about them but a collection of definitions ascribing negative associations to women in stereotypical contexts is pretty damning. Then there's inequality in pay for the same work, the general tendency to take women less seriously, constantly challenging their authority or demanding they prove their credentials when men are just taken as is and a myriad little things people don't think about like the tendency for men to take up space while women are expected to give it, that women are expected to move out of the way while men just keep going on their set path, how women get criticized for covering up too much as well as covering too little, how dress codes generally restrict what women wear "so as not to distract the men" rather than hold men accountable for their lustful inattentiveness and so on.

[Risto the Great]

Women hate the Kardashians too. They're more an example of classism and how it affects media than what the average middle-class woman cares about.

I don't think all women do. Just look at all the selfies online. It has permeated all levels of culture and none of it is good. The middle class is the host for the cancer that eats society. We fund it and allow it to thrive.

Also the mockery tends to be about entitlement more than anything. Pretty much the only times I've seen any was in relation to misogynistic comments. People are finally starting to really do something about the rampant sexual harassment and abuse of power in places like hollywood and to be honest mockery isn't really that notable when faced with potential ostracization and your career getting ruined if you don't accede to every demand of some ass in a suit. Women have actually received death threats just for trying to exist in male dominated circles or speaking out against things they've had to deal with. There are entire forums dedicated to hating women and strategizing on how to best make them fear for their lives, stalk them and so on. Women by contrast mostly express disdain for men by how much they want to get away from the ones who are like that and surround themselves in women who will look out for their wellbeing. One is actively seeking to harm while the other just wants a safe and comfortable environment.

I see Matt Damon is now the enemy of all women because he stated there were varying degrees of problems in society. In my mind this is hardly a controversial statement.

I am not sure about the mockery of men in your nation. But not a single television commercial paints men in a masculine role nowadays. They are all shown as dopey sorts who are only fit for lifting things outside.

There are other forums dedicated to men who are abused by women and it is even more horrifying because they have no problems messing with the minds of their children as part of their strategy. It goes both ways and thankfully it isn't the majority of both sexes who feel the same about all of this.

Not that it really relates to anything, but why did all the women who were abused by Weinstein wait to achieve their success before complaining publicly about their abuse? This terrible behaviour could have been stamped out 20 years ago. Shame on them and the abuse on other women that could have been avoided.