Regime Change: Will Macedonia be Removed from the Map in 2018?

[Risto the Great]

You should speak to the Kurds from Iraq. They will tell a different story.

[Starling]

Gocka, the US arrests people unlawfully all the time. It's pretty well known that the police there is corrupt and have been known to plant drugs on people to justify arresting them. They also "lose" bodycam footage at times and racially profile people. Then you get into how a disproportionate amount of black children get shot, disabled people getting beaten to death, blasting peaceful protesters with a water canon at sub-zero temperatures, trying to shoot down the drone that caught the whole thing to remove the evidence, the way despite all the violent responses to protests regarding police brutality they stood by and watched the neo-nazis walk the streets shouting Nazi rhetoric, etc.

Also US democracy doesn't function well. Between deliberate obstructions regarding voting registration designed to make marginalized groups less able to register, poll distances and times designed to make it difficult for them to get to them, unannounced or false poll closures in targeted areas to keep them from voting, gerrymandering, people harassing or intimidating people at the polls, programs designed to screen voters from marginalized groups under the pretext of voter fraud and the electoral college, the actual election results generally don't accurately reflect the desires of the people. Trump lost the popular vote despite all of that and the electoral college voted him in anyway. Also the electoral college can just flat out ignore the voters they represent with little more than a fine if they want. Now they have the least competent president in existence, who literally committed treason, is colluding with a foreign hostile government, is systematically destroying various systems designed to help the average system with basic necessities, was under trial for sexual assault before the elections and still hasn't been impeached yet. Also a lot of American citizens have rather poor standard of living and few opportunities to change that because the system is actively keeping them from doing anything about it. It's bad enough that the US could very well be headed for a major economic collapse within a decade or two from now.

[Pelagonija]

Thanks Starling I for once totally agree with your well written comment..

I can understand Gockas blind love for the US.. he probably experienced economic hardship in MKD or his family like all of our families and now may be doing well hence clouding his judgement but please spare us the New York Times propaganda crap.

The US is Macedonians biggest enemy, hence that makes the US my number 1 enemy..

If anyone has a problem let's sort it out like men in the pub!

[Pelagonija]

You should speak to the Kurds from Iraq. They will tell a different story.

Risto mate? Was that after the US promised the Kurds they would support them if they revolted yet left them like lambs at the slaughter house..?

I'm very supportive of the Kurds.. I'm surprised the Kurds aren't given rites in Turkey like the Albanians in MKD by the US? You know.. good ol USA the worlds mafia democracy policeman.. 15 millions Kurds bro.. but it doesn't suit Americas interest..

[Risto the Great]

I believe it's 50 million Kurds. They love USA (in relation to Iraq)! Ask them.

[Karposh]

Attacked by my Macedonian brothers on this beautiful forum...what a disaster.

Albanian brothers? Have you ever been in a fight with albanians you cunt? STOP generalizing! Stop! You think you know all about me don't you? You have me all figured out right? Why are you so salty? Where have I made a mistake? I thought we would have a discussion but it seems it gives you GREAT satisfaction to insult me just because of my location. Bravo mate! Bravo!

Know that I love Macedonia as much as you do.

It's borne out of frustration Stefan. It's directed at all Macedonians in the Republic and not you personally. Imagine: A former terrorist serving as the Speaker of the House, the very same house he tried to tear down not so long ago; A Prime Minister who is an unashamed traitor and more than happy to sell-out his own people and; A government that is releasing child-murdering terrorists while locking up hair-pulling senior citizens. That is the toilet that is the Macedonian Parliament today. If it happened in any other country in the world, there would be riots in the streets. But not in our beloved Macedonia.

Some say it is due to our inherently apathetic nature to accept our fate as something akin to coming down on us like a plague from God. Maybe we deserved it...Who knows? But I don't see it that way. I think it is because my people is too civilised to act in such a destructive way. So civilised in fact that we would gladly hand over the natural and legitimate rights of the nation-state to a minority than have to deal with the messy situation altogether.

It's easy for us over here to judge you and tell you to clean out your own toilet but it's just as easy for you to tell us “why don't you do it for us if you think it stinks that much”. Again, by “you” I mean Macedonians in the Republic not you personally. 100 – 150 years ago Macedonians would not have tolerated such treason. They were too proud for that to ever happen and being civilised was the least of their concerns. The dignity of Macedonia and Macedonians is what mattered most. What happened to those Macedonians?

[Pelagonija]

According to Mr Give Zaev a chance AKA Gocka electing Zaev was the PM Macedonia had to have in order for our patriotic spirit to spring into action!

Zaev will be a complete disaster for our national interests. This will also have economic repercussions for the average Macedonian.. but hey as long as I can drive around in Ohrid with my New Jersey plates who gives a fark.. I will feel special..

[Phoenix]

The US is Macedonians biggest enemy, hence that makes the US my number 1 enemy..

The US has been the number 1 cunt on the planet since WWII and continues along the same path to this day...

[vicsinad]

I'm among the first to criticize the U.S. for a multitude of issues, especially its foreign policy and excessive consumerism and materialism.

But let's not stray from the general message: Macedonia could learn something from the U.S, and particularly from the American people.

Citizen participation and engagement is pretty extraordinary here. I've worked in 4 different states in several different capacities, from a farmer to a teacher to the director of a government department. When the government can't or won't or fails to step up to the plate on an issue, there is no shortage of people willing to put in the effort to make a difference. When I was teaching, I couldn't believe the number of parents that would volunteer hours for school events. When I was farming, I noticed extraordinarily strong bonds between farmers and their communities, farmers who continuously gave food to the needy when they barely could keep themselves financially operable.

And now in my department, I'm literally thankful for the endless citizen participation. It's not just people submitting petitions or coming in to talk about an issue. I have 5 commissions and boards that I oversee and they are all volunteer -- planning commission, conservation commission, development review board, economic development commission, and infrastructure committee. People spending their evenings or their lunches trying to improve their communities -- teachers, factory workers, doctors, professors, college students, stay at home moms...they are all involved. Without their volunteer work, this place wouldn't be the same.

Towns here even have volunteer tree committees that keep an inventory of healthy and dying trees in public rights of way. Our State has an annual spring clean up day where people take off of work to clean up trash that has accumulated on the sides of streets, sidewalks and in rivers. It's an amazing sight when you have tens of thousands of people on the roads with their garbage bags keeping their environment clean and communities looking respectable. When have you ever seen Macedonians in Macedonia cleaning up trash? They wouldn't even do it if you paid them -- it's likely the most polluted country in Europe! I had a Vermont national guardsman who was stationed in Macedonia (training the Macedonian army, because America is evil like that) tell me he loved Macedonia and the people, but he just had one complaint -- why the hell don't they take care of their neighborhoods and natural areas? Something that is practically instinctual here for many people -- to take care of the place they live in -- is something not even on the radar in Macedonians' minds. They throw trash everywhere and the only people to pick it up are the Roma, who find a way to make a living off of cleaning streets or selling scrap metal.

That is just one issue.

The U.S. has a lot of faults, and discussing them is a worthy topic. But there are some things that make American communities function well that Macedonia doesn't have, and that's a citizenry that actually gives a damn about where they live.

[Karposh]

The average, stay-at-home American mum is not Macedonia's enemy Vic - It's the US government. The issue is with your government and not your countrymen.The slimy, back-stage politics of the US government backing the lowest common denominator right around the world so long as it serves their best interests is where the problem with your government lies. There was a lot of talk about American morals a few posts back as well as the idea that it is perfectly reasonable for America to back corrupt regimes so long as it serves their best interest. Isn't that just a bit hypocritical? It may have served (and continues to serve) America's interests to back the Albanians in the Balkans but it doesn't make it right. They have created the Albanian monster we see today that is threatening to consume Macedonia as well. Just like they backed the Arab Spring in Libya, Egypt and Syria and, consequently, creating the resulting monster that is ISIS. From a "Muslim Brotherhood" to a multi-headed terrorist organisation, all thanks to the meddling politics of the USA. I'm still trying to come to grips with the secret "Humanitarian" drops of vital supplies by the US army to the Albanians on Shar Planina during the height of the 2001 conflict. Or the two dozen or so US military contractors aiding their lap dogs in Aracinovo against the Macedonians. What American morals were being served here?

The American people are actually genuinely very polite and respectful people. I've met quite a few of them over the years and found this to be generally the case. I have no problems with the American people. It's the disgusting politics of the US government interfering in Macedonia's affairs that I have a problem with.

[vicsinad]

The average, stay-at-home American mum is not Macedonia's enemy Vic - It's the US government.

Sure, I get that. While you can almost say that about any powerful government in relation to smaller countries, I get it -- the US has interests and it doesn't care for principles or morality when it pursues those interests on the international stage.

But even though that's what some people have turned this conversation into, it's not what it should be about. You've misinterpreted Gocka's statements. I didn't see him suggest that it was morally right for America to intervene in other nations affairs or back corrupt regimes. I think he analyzed the world for what it is rather than what we aspire it to be: a bunch of nations competing with one another for a limited resource pool, in pursuit of whatever that resource may be, material or not. The US, Russia, China and etc. nowadays will trample on others to get what they want. In the past, small nations like Serbia, Bulgaria and Greece trampled on Macedonia and each other to get what they wanted.

Nations, in reality, don't operate based on principles and morality; rather, they operate on interests and needs. As soon as Macedonia recognizes that, the sooner they can be better prepared for preserving their nation and society.

Macedonians can learn something from the American system and the way the US is structured and organized; and whether or not the overall American machine is evil and terrible is a different discussion. In general, the rule of law in America is paradise compared to Macedonia's rule of law. In the U.S., you have corrupt actors in the legal system, no doubt. In Macedonia, the entire system is corrupt. In the US, lower and mid-level government workers (from local to state to federal) keep their positions when a different political party is elected into office. In Macedonia, that is generally not the case.

There is a general respect for the system here, as I'm sure there probably is in Australia and Canada; I haven't noticed a respect for hardly any system or institution in Macedonia.

Morality and principles aside, how can Macedonia preserve itself when it doesn't even respect itself?

[Starling]

Like I said before, screwing over other countries for personal gain is ultimately harmful to the countries doing it in the first place. It's like rich people screwing over the middle class to hoard more money when they already have more than they'll likely need in a lifetime. Sure they get more money in the moment but in the long term their revenue will plummet as people can no longer afford stuff and if it gets bad enough you've got another great depression on your hands.

Right now insufficient global coordination on environmental problems means global warming will likely be what kills us long before the sun reaches the point of its lifespan that would destroy the earth itself. Humans evolved to collaborate and cooperate as communities and now that pretty much everyone lives everywhere else, it's about time we start looking beyond national boundaries in doing so.

I've seen a lot of Americans and citizens of other countries being vocal about human rights abuses, censorship and the need to hold governments accountable for both past and present corruption. The general sentiment worldwide is to dismantle prejudice and bigotry on an international scale and working towards better rights for marginalized groups. There've been record-breaking responses to net neutrality being threatened again, for example. I figure from the diaspora the most we can do about Macedonia is raise awareness among international communities and hopefully remind Macedonians in Macedonia that their rights are worth fighting for.

[Gocka]

My family owned half the village, and still do. I have more land and a bigger home in Macedonia, that my grandfather built then I do in the USA. My parents left Macedonia because of communists, not because they needed more money. My family was targeted by the communist police because they had money and used it to fund anti communist movements. So with all due respect, which is none, Fuck You.

You are the same conspiracy theory peddling village idiot that you would have been in Macedonia, except now you are illiterate in 2 languages instead of just one. I tried to be polite to you, but as usual you cross the line because you are too dense to actually speak to an issue. Your contribution here is about as useful as that random shiptar who is constantly wasting forum space.

I do have a problem, and had I met you in a pub i'd surely break your freaking nose. You cunt.

Thanks Starling I for once totally agree with your well written comment..

I can understand Gockas blind love for the US.. he probably experienced economic hardship in MKD or his family like all of our families and now may be doing well hence clouding his judgement but please spare us the New York Times propaganda crap.

The US is Macedonians biggest enemy, hence that makes the US my number 1 enemy..

If anyone has a problem let's sort it out like men in the pub!

[Tomche Makedonche]

I'm among the first to criticize the U.S. for a multitude of issues, especially its foreign policy and excessive consumerism and materialism.

But let's not stray from the general message: Macedonia could learn something from the U.S, and particularly from the American people.

Citizen participation and engagement is pretty extraordinary here. I've worked in 4 different states in several different capacities, from a farmer to a teacher to the director of a government department. When the government can't or won't or fails to step up to the plate on an issue, there is no shortage of people willing to put in the effort to make a difference. When I was teaching, I couldn't believe the number of parents that would volunteer hours for school events. When I was farming, I noticed extraordinarily strong bonds between farmers and their communities, farmers who continuously gave food to the needy when they barely could keep themselves financially operable.

And now in my department, I'm literally thankful for the endless citizen participation. It's not just people submitting petitions or coming in to talk about an issue. I have 5 commissions and boards that I oversee and they are all volunteer -- planning commission, conservation commission, development review board, economic development commission, and infrastructure committee. People spending their evenings or their lunches trying to improve their communities -- teachers, factory workers, doctors, professors, college students, stay at home moms...they are all involved. Without their volunteer work, this place wouldn't be the same.

Towns here even have volunteer tree committees that keep an inventory of healthy and dying trees in public rights of way. Our State has an annual spring clean up day where people take off of work to clean up trash that has accumulated on the sides of streets, sidewalks and in rivers. It's an amazing sight when you have tens of thousands of people on the roads with their garbage bags keeping their environment clean and communities looking respectable. When have you ever seen Macedonians in Macedonia cleaning up trash? They wouldn't even do it if you paid them -- it's likely the most polluted country in Europe! I had a Vermont national guardsman who was stationed in Macedonia (training the Macedonian army, because America is evil like that) tell me he loved Macedonia and the people, but he just had one complaint -- why the hell don't they take care of their neighborhoods and natural areas? Something that is practically instinctual here for many people -- to take care of the place they live in -- is something not even on the radar in Macedonians' minds. They throw trash everywhere and the only people to pick it up are the Roma, who find a way to make a living off of cleaning streets or selling scrap metal.

That is just one issue.

The U.S. has a lot of faults, and discussing them is a worthy topic. But there are some things that make American communities function well that Macedonia doesn't have, and that's a citizenry that actually gives a damn about where they live.

I think this is a very important point you bring up Vic, for a long time I thought I was one of the only ones pondering the correlation between the way Macedonians treat or think of their environment and their attitudes about statehood (simply because I hardly ever heard any one bringing the two topics up together), that is until I came across what I personally considered to be an excellent piece written by the AMHRC in one of their issues where, if I recall correctly, during the time of the anti-corruption protests, instead of focusing on the political content of the protests, surprisingly they highlighted the state of the physical environment following the protests (how the protestors just left their garbage and placards all over the streets once they called it a night) and the perception that left about the actual attitudes of the protestors towards their state.

I have been very perplexed by this attitude amongst the Macedonians in the Republic, because it simply is at polar opposites with what I personally know and experience with our culture. I think the majority here can agree that when it comes to your home and possessions, Macedonians are meticulously devoted to the maintenance and care of their home, property and personal possessions. Any Macedonian home I would walk into, regardless of what country its in, basically gives the impression of a display home, their possessions usually in display cabinets replicating a museum, even garages and cars are treated like an extended part of the family, and don’t even get me started on gardens. Most Macedonians in general find pride in maintaining and portraying their possessions in this way, irrespective of how meagre they may be, yet as soon as you remove yourself from that realm of what they consider to be their personal property, it’s the polar opposite, and so I ask myself why?, I know for a fact that you wouldn’t just throw your garbage on the floor in your house, or on your lawn, so why once you go over your fence, you quite happily throw your garbage on the street, in your stream, on the side walk in your forests. It doesn’t make any logical sense to me.

That is unless you think the stream, the sidewalk, the street, the forests, don’t belong to you.

This is what I really think is the problem regarding this phenomenon. There is a real dissociation of ownership amongst the citizens of the Republic. They don’t think or realise that they actually now own/co-own their land. I see this phenomenon being an aspect of what people refer to the slave mentality, in that until recent history, the land was actually owned by foreign powers, whether it be the Ottoman overlords, Rulers of Kingdoms, or the most recent Communist state. I think what people in the Republic never understood or was never explained to them (which I don’t discount to be on purpose), is that when they finally became independent, governed by a parliamentary democracy, that they became the owners/co-owners of the state, that those streams, those streets, those forests, were now theirs, that they now belonged to them, that they together now owned all their land.

Its amazing how many blank stares I always get when I try to point this out to people in the Republic, no matter where I go, whether in a city, town, village, they really don’t understand it, its never been put to them in that way, that the street they are walking on, is theirs, that they own it, and as you wouldn’t throw your garbage in your house, why would you throw it on your own street?

They really just don’t know or realise, that they now own/co-own the land, that it is theirs, for the majority, they still think that it belongs to someone else, as though they live in some kind of feudal system. It is very perplexing and frustrating, and to be honest, the ones I find that understand the concept when it is explained to them in that way, it honestly looks like seeing someone have an epiphany before your very eyes.

[vicsinad]

Right now insufficient global coordination on environmental problems means global warming will likely be what kills us long before the sun reaches the point of its lifespan that would destroy the earth itself. Humans evolved to collaborate and cooperate as communities and now that pretty much everyone lives everywhere else, it's about time we start looking beyond national boundaries in doing so.

Well, the fact that "everyone lives everywhere else" is a growing problem because it results in people caring less about "place". With advancements in communication/transportation, the concept of one's place is significantly expanding, but a human's capacity to act (his or her natural limitations) are not expanding. Further, we're less emotionally attached to any one place, which further reduces our desire to care (or feel that we're responsible) for that particular space.

A classic example is that of an elementary school-aged child who can't even count off five species of animals that are found in his neighborhood, but can name dozens on some far off continent that he might probably visit once or twice in his life. Or, he can list off more Hollywood, Youtube and entertainment stars than he can name people in his own neighborhood or school. How can he care for his own neighborhood/town when he grows up if he doesn't even know his own neighborhood, or isn't going to remain there and be constantly on the move?

The best solution would be for people to maximize and concentrate their efforts in their own "place". Coordination across municipal or national boundaries is good in solving global problems; but we must realize that most global problems are caused by an accumulation of ignored local problems.