Iron Maiden "Alexander the Great" (1986)

[Liberator of Makedonija]

While we have established for a long time that prior to 1988, Greece denied the existence of Macedonians and after that started to claim that Macedonians were Greeks. This song some-what contradicts that as the lyrics present Alexander as a Macedonian but refer to Macedonia as a part of "Ancient Greece" and that Alexander spread Hellenism. Can anyone shed some light on this as it was my understanding that prior to 1988 Greece just claimed he was a Greek and denied the existence of Macedonians.

[Risto the Great]

I rely on iron maiden for all my perspectives on life. Prior to them, I thought the number of the beast was an old girlfriend of mine.

[Toska]

While we have established for a long time that prior to 1988, Greece denied the existence of Macedonians and after that started to claim that Macedonians were Greeks. This song some-what contradicts that as the lyrics present Alexander as a Macedonian but refer to Macedonia as a part of "Ancient Greece" and that Alexander spread Hellenism. Can anyone shed some light on this as it was my understanding that prior to 1988 Greece just claimed he was a Greek and denied the existence of Macedonians.

pre 1988 greece stance was that Macedonians dont exist, there is no Macedonians no Greek Macedonians the Ancient Macedonians all got killed off and that only northern greeks in Macedonia, that was their stance, after 1988 they become Greek Macedonian

[Amphipolis]

Can anyone shed some light on this as it was my understanding that prior to 1988 Greece just claimed he was a Greek and denied the existence of Macedonians.

Greece denies YOUR view that you are a nation, called the Macedonian nation, related to Ancient Macedonia of Alexander the Great. This goes both before and after 1988. Nothing changed in our views in 1988.

[Toska]

Greece denies YOUR view that you are a nation, called the Macedonian nation, related to Ancient Macedonia of Alexander the Great. This goes both before and after 1988. Nothing changed in our views in 1988.

that is bullshit

greek man before 88: you are not macedonian, macedonians dont exist and died long time ago

greek man after 88 : you are not macedonian , because im macedonian and im greek

your propaganda took a big turn after yugoslavia was looking to break up.

[Liberator of Makedonija]

pre 1988 greece stance was that Macedonians dont exist, there is no Macedonians no Greek Macedonians the Ancient Macedonians all got killed off and that only northern greeks in Macedonia, that was their stance, after 1988 they become Greek Macedonian

So they believed the Ancient Macedonains were Greek but died out along with the name Macedonian and refused to accept Macedonians calling thsemselves that because it went against their theory?

[Redsun]

Who do you refer to as "they" the sheep or the political propaganda machine?

Notice that our Greek member used "denies"

Deny - state that one refuses to admit the truth or existence of.

They refuse to admit the truth.

[Karposh]

Greece denies YOUR view that you are a nation, called the Macedonian nation, related to Ancient Macedonia of Alexander the Great. This goes both before and after 1988. Nothing changed in our views in 1988.

What’s going on Amphipolis, have you suddenly lost the plot? That is the height of arrogance right there. You go on a Macedonian forum, a site owned and run by ethnic Macedonians and you post shit like that.

Naturally, our views are, and always will be, opposed but, generally speaking, your comments have tended to be in the spirit of this forum.
What’s with the sudden change in tone?

Here’s a reminder of Rule 5 of this forum’s Rules and Regulations: Negating the identity, language and culture of the Macedonian people by deliberate avoidance of the terms Macedonia, Macedonian and Macedonians, or by any other means, is not permitted.

No one is forcing you to acknowledge the existence of the Modern Macedonian Nation by being on this forum but don’t make the mistake of insulting us with blatant pig-headed Greek Fascist attitudes such as that which you openly display from time to time.

My guess is that you have taken exception to what Macedonians have identified as a change in Greek tactics that is clearly measureable as of the year 1988. I would go so far as to say that the Macedonian diaspora has had a role to play in this sudden change in Greek tactics. All those Macedonian demonstrations during the late 1980’s in Australia against the Fascist policies of Greece would have opened the eyes of Greek authorities of the danger the Macedonian issue posed to the Greek myth of the 99.999% homogenous Greek state. Something had to be done and they did it by coming out and saying, okay we admit it, we’ve got Macedonians in Greece but they are Greek Macedonians. No Skopjans here, just Greek Macedonians. The beginning of disinformation about the Macedonian Minority in Greece had begun. The aim of which was to create confusion and a diversion away from the real issue at hand – the national rights of the Macedonians in Greece. And that year was 1988.

Interestingly, you don’t hear of Macedonians complaining that Greeks have decided to suddenly call themselves Greek Macedonians. Good for you I say. As a matter of fact, I don’t think we would mind if the Bulgarians, Serbs or the rest of the Balkans decided to call themselves Macedonians. I’m sure most Macedonians would agree: that’s fine by us.

Your comrade Poligiros asked the question on another thread “why do nationalistic Macedonians have a distinct dislike for anything remotely Hellenic?” It’s not a question of dislike or hate of the Greeks. It’s a question of respect. And the answer to Poligiros’ question lies in your comment above. The day you Greeks learn to respect Macedonians for who they say they are, regardless of whether you believe it is baloney or not, is the day that maybe we can start mending a few bridges. Until then, please mind your tone. I think that is all any Macedonian will ask of you and your comrades.

Who gives a toss if Greece denies that the Macedonians are a nation in their own right? Belonging to a certain national group is not a matter for Greece to approve or sign off on. It’s called self determination that all nations are entitled to.

[Amphipolis]

The first sentence of post#1 misrepresents Greece’s position. That is a problem.

Then the author (Liberator of Makedonija) even says his description is of course established. That’s a bigger problem.

Toska’s descriptions are not better. They’re partly incomprehensible and later (probably) refer to what a Greek guy told him in an Australian bar.

The sure thing is I live in Macedonia and I can’t speak of Australia. The correct position of Greece is the one I wrote (as shortly it can be presented in 1 ½ line). That’s if anyone’s interested.

This is an older post (and the conversation around it) of how I remember the political climate of the 1980s.

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showpost.php?p=163107&postcount=48

Greeks don’t call themselves Greek Macedonians, unless they live in Macedonia. In that case they call themselves Macedonians. Now, if someone is in a TV debate abroad (e.g. in Australia) he might use the term “Greek Macedonian” in an explanatory manner. In the same manner you would probably clarify and emphasize that you’re an “ethnic-Macedonian”. At least that’s what Voskopoulos does in Greece or abroad.

[Poligiros]

While we have established for a long time that prior to 1988, Greece denied the existence of Macedonians and after that started to claim that Macedonians were Greeks. This song some-what contradicts that as the lyrics present Alexander as a Macedonian but refer to Macedonia as a part of "Ancient Greece" and that Alexander spread Hellenism. Can anyone shed some light on this as it was my understanding that prior to 1988 Greece just claimed he was a Greek and denied the existence of Macedonians.

Its unfortunate that Iron Maiden aren't keen on performing this song due to the backlash regarding the lyrics .

Lets get something clear. We never said Macedonians didn't exist prior to 1988. My understanding of the historical position is that the Macedonians (who many reputable historians claim ancestry from Dorian Hellenes) were assimilated into the other Hellenic/Byzantine tribes. Therefore, northern Hellenes are remnants of the Byzantines and therefore, Macedonians.

You are taking the words out of context, you know fully well that the Hellenic republic are claiming that Alexander is Greek in terms of being "King of Greece", unifying the Greek city/states and spreading Hellenistic culture to the east. "In a part of ancient Greece In an ancient land called Macedonia (as the song suggests)". Therefore, the Hellenic republic claim Alexander is exclusive of your type of Macedonian!

Unfortunately, from what I have been told in this forum, a Hellene cannot be Macedonian, because we do not practice the modern Macedonian culture and can only be one or the other?

[King Niko]

Look in my opinion, Alexander the Great was Thracian and Macedonian in no way does he resemble Greeks of now or in that time period. Furthermore, Macedonia from one point in my life I heavily believed Macedon was Greek, and as of now, it is not Greek at all. In fact, I do not even see how Greeks can claim any other ethnicity let alone with a simple sweep of history, you can broadly see that they recognized anyone as Greek who were "Christians". Sooooo final point, it is a lot of contradictions, Alexander the Great is not Greek nor was Macedon.

[Philosopher]

Greece denies YOUR view that you are a nation, called the Macedonian nation, related to Ancient Macedonia of Alexander the Great. This goes both before and after 1988. Nothing changed in our views in 1988.

Nationality is a bit of a complex issue, as nationality is a social construct. Self-determination allows for a nation to call itself whatever the collective nation desires; but I get your point.

Nationalities are largely based on lineage, a common descent of peoples.

There is no pure Greek or Macedonian nation or any nation on this earth. The Balkans are very mixed, and I have no doubt that the descendants of the ancient Greeks, Macedonians, Illyrians, and Thracians can be found throughout the world, most concentrated in the Balkans.

There is the issue of language and culture to consider. The error of the Greek government, and most supporters of the Greek position, is that they superimpose a "Hellenic" identity or nationality on the ancient Macedonians because a small fragment of the Macedonian royal house claimed Argive descent.

This is a fatal error.

[Poligiros]

Nationality is a bit of a complex issue, as nationality is a social construct. Self-determination allows for a nation to call itself whatever the collective nation desires; but I get your point.

Nationalities are largely based on lineage, a common descent of peoples.

There is no pure Greek or Macedonian nation or any nation on this earth. The Balkans are very mixed, and I have no doubt that the descendants of the ancient Greeks, Macedonians, Illyrians, and Thracians can be found throughout the world, most concentrated in the Balkans.

There is the issue of language and culture to consider. The error of the Greek government, and most supporters of the Greek position, is that they superimpose a "Hellenic" identity or nationality on the ancient Macedonians because a small fragment of the Macedonian royal house claimed Argive descent.

This is a fatal error.

Agree with most of what you are saying. However, you have to realise its not the Hellenic government that superimposed a "Hellenic identity" on the ancient Macedonians. 99% of western classics departments at ivy league institutions are responsible for implementing that assumption, based on history, archaeology, historical narratives and inscriptions.

As for self-determination, there are nationalistic agendas behind that assumption, so its not so clear cut.

[Amphipolis]

Look in my opinion, Alexander the Great was Thracian and Macedonian in no way does he resemble Greeks of now or in that time period.

When you say Thracian, do you mean... Epirote by any chance? Also, what's with the resemblance?

[Soldier of Macedon]

Toska’s descriptions are not better. They’re partly incomprehensible and later (probably) refer to what a Greek guy told him in an Australian bar.

It wasn't just some guy in a bar you condescending knucklehead, Toska's description applies to the overwhelming majority of Greeks in this country. All of us who have grown up here saw and heard it, despite what your supposed kinsmen from here say today.

Greeks don’t call themselves Greek Macedonians, unless they live in Macedonia. In that case they call themselves Macedonians.

As a regional description. Nothing more. And even that is a relatively recent (and stupid) phenomenon.

99% of western classics departments at ivy league institutions are responsible for implementing that assumption, based on history, archaeology, historical narratives and inscriptions.

Who are the 1%?

.....the Hellenic republic are claiming that Alexander is Greek in terms of being "King of Greece", unifying the Greek city/states and spreading Hellenistic culture to the east.

He was the king of Macedonia. What you refer to as "Greece" and "unifying" were a bunch of city-states that were defeated by the Macedonians and forced into a league which was controlled by Macedonia. As for spreading Hellenic culture, again, a by-product of the Macedonian campaign. Why are you here Poligiros? We are not going to change our perception of our own history, and we are not going to accept your perception about our own history. Everything you're saying has been said before by your fellow morons who were previously here. That being the case, what purpose do you serve here?