Macedonia for the Macedonians

[Coolski]

This is the slogan of VMRO, but what does it mean?

Today we interpret it as Macedonia for the ethnic Macedonians, which perhaps implies that Macedonia is not for the various other ethnic groups in Macedonia. In my opinion, this interpretation seems as racist as the policies that have existed in the balkans (eg. Greece, Serbia, Croatia, Albania, Bulgaria), and the policies which have cost the ethnic Macedonian minorities in the region so many liberties. Some may say that this is the frame of mind which you need to survive in the racist neighbourhood, but it is at least worth understanding the intended purpose of this phrase and how ambiguous it can be.

This leads me to my next question. What did Delčev mean by "Macedonia for the Macedonians"? My opinion of this phrase in the 1903 context is that Macedonians were referred to not only as ethnic Macedonians but all inhabitants of geographical Macedonia. The Kruševo manifesto takes this further and it mentions a very advanced concept of statehood based on the citizens themselves and not one culture dominating others (which was and still is the norm in the Balkans).

So, when we say "Macedonia for the Macedonians" we need to think carefully because the two interpretations may seem contradictory.

What do you guys think when you hear "Macedonia for the Macedonians"?

[Makedonia]

I think of the geographical region of Makedonia populated by the many races and cultures who identify as such.

[Daskalot]

I think of the geographical region of Makedonia populated by the many races and cultures who identify as such.

Of course you do, but if we take a look at the original statement by W. Gladstone in 1897, "Why not Macedonia for the Macedonians as well as Bulgaria for the Bulgarians and Servia for the Servians?", then we get a better understanding for whom this statement was intended, or do you dispute the validity of both the Serbian and Bulgarian ethnos?

CLICK HERE TO READ THE QUOTE BY GLADSTONE

[Jankovska]

I think the difficulty that the Macedonians were facing is the asimilation from all the neighbouring countries. Don't forget that the Macedonian people were presured to write one day in Bulgarian, the other in Greek etc and still have the shaky Ottoman empire take their danok and still burn villages, torture people etc. Most of the Macedonians were not educated and didn't know who to trust and believe anymore, everyone was 'freeing' them but the people were suffering more and more so Goce Delcev and the rest of the Komiti knew that to organise the Macedonians to fight they need to make it clear what they are fighting for. They made it clear the no one will help them, that Macedonians will fight for Macedonia only and they were the lead to this. Goce Delcev, Jane Sandanski, Dame Gruev etc were the ones showing what it means Macedonians themselves to fight for Macedonia and not wait for anyone help. Macedonia for the Macedonians to means i's ours and we will fight for it, today, tomorrow,forever if we have to.

[Risto the Great]

Yes Jankovska.
And like the Greek Communists, they had to use terminology that kept the fighters captivated. Offer enough incentive for promoting change. The Greek communists offered Macedonians autonomy. Delcev and co. needed as many people as happy as possible. Knowing full well that the ethnic Macedonian majority had the most to gain from this. Macedonia for the Macedonians continues to be the dream.

[malenka]

It wasn't just ethnic Macedonians who were fighting under this slogan. For me Macedonia for the Macedonians means free country for the people at the time living in, and calling Macedonia their home and having to deal with everyone trying to squash them.
Other way where would you put Pitu Guli? Why the name of a vlach is celebrated even in the Macedonian hymn?

I am not aware if the slogan was used later on in NOB, but if it was then we have the Albanian girl Ibe Palikuka, who became Macedonian national hero and today many schools around the country have her name. I believe I read somewhere that Oci from Aco Shopov was written for her.

[Pelister]

It wasn't just ethnic Macedonians who were fighting under this slogan. For me Macedonia for the Macedonians means free country for the people at the time living in, and calling Macedonia their home and having to deal with everyone trying to squash them.
Other way where would you put Pitu Guli? Why the name of a vlach is celebrated even in the Macedonian hymn?
I am not aware if the slogan was used later on in NOB, but if it was then we have the Albanian girl Ibe Palikuka, who became Macedonian national hero and today many schools around the country have her name. I believe I read somewhere that Oci from Aco Shopov was written for her.

Is'nt it great that Macedonians can celebrate Palikuka and Pitu Guli as their national heroes, and at the same time, recognize who they were and what they did.

Macedonia for the Macedonians is all about having a land of their own, where they can celebrate their identity freely, and safely.

coolie, Suggesting, as you do, that it means its a land meant for no one else but Macedonians, is false. I don't think anyone has ever suggested that there should be only Macedonians living in Macedonia.

It's a question of national security that Albanian numbers are reduced, so the Macedonians can live safely, and freely.

[sydney]

"macedonia for the macedonians" invokes freedom, liberty, self-determination, an awakening, the end of tyranny and injustice, hope, brotherhood, a sense of belonging. being macedonian is everything.

[Coolski]

coolie, Suggesting, as you do, that it means its a land meant for no one else but Macedonians, is false. I don't think anyone has ever suggested that there should be only Macedonians living in Macedonia.

I much prefer the original version of Macedonia for the Macedonians, but in light of neighboring nationalism, if an unsuspecting person was to hear "Macedonia for the Macedonians" it could definitely have a different meaning.

Yes, it could be argued that groups like for example parts of Albanian society in Macedonia behave in a way that indicates that they are not genuine citizens of Macedonia, so it could still be interpreted in that fashion (treason against the state).

I wouldn't go so far to say that nobody has suggested that there should be only Macedonians in Macedonia. I would argue that a number of people chant this slogan with that exact purpose. I am also certain that there are Macedonians that disagree with the Kruševo manifesto, preferring a concept of ethnic Macedonian domination similar to Macedonia's neighbors (a clear prisoner's dilemma).

Back to the slogan's interpretations. Let me put this in a couple of scenarios where a non-Macedonian may interpret these slogans incorrectly, or where the wrong meaning is used by Macedonians themselves.

1. At a protest. If you saw a group of people carrying "Macedonia for the Macedonians" slogans, from a balkan country, you would think, these people are like all the other balkan nations. They must be talking about an ethnically clean country.

2. In Macedonia. Since there exists the Republic of Macedonia and the Macedonian ethnicity, when one says Macedonia for the Macedonians, does this not leave it open to incorrect interpretation?

What i'm saying is that the phrase is ambiguous in today's world and it might be important to come up with a strategy to ensure that the world knows what "Macedonia for the Macedonians" means.

[Coolski]

"macedonia for the macedonians" invokes freedom, liberty, self-determination, an awakening, the end of tyranny and injustice, hope, brotherhood, a sense of belonging. being macedonian is everything.

That's definitely the meaning we should ensure everyone understands when they hear the phrase.

[MapleLeaf1]

That's definitely the meaning we should ensure everyone understands when they hear the phrase.

100% agreed, Sydney you should copyright that, bravo

[Pelister]

I much prefer the original version of Macedonia for the Macedonians, but in light of neighboring nationalism, if an unsuspecting person was to hear "Macedonia for the Macedonians" it could definitely have a different meaning.

Yes, it could be argued that groups like for example parts of Albanian society in Macedonia behave in a way that indicates that they are not genuine citizens of Macedonia, so it could still be interpreted in that fashion (treason against the state).

I wouldn't go so far to say that nobody has suggested that there should be only Macedonians in Macedonia. I would argue that a number of people chant this slogan with that exact purpose. I am also certain that there are Macedonians that disagree with the Kruševo manifesto, preferring a concept of ethnic Macedonian domination similar to Macedonia's neighbors (a clear prisoner's dilemma).

Back to the slogan's interpretations. Let me put this in a couple of scenarios where a non-Macedonian may interpret these slogans incorrectly, or where the wrong meaning is used by Macedonians themselves.

1. At a protest. If you saw a group of people carrying "Macedonia for the Macedonians" slogans, from a balkan country, you would think, these people are like all the other balkan nations. They must be talking about an ethnically clean country.

2. In Macedonia. Since there exists the Republic of Macedonia and the Macedonian ethnicity, when one says Macedonia for the Macedonians, does this not leave it open to incorrect interpretation?

What i'm saying is that the phrase is ambiguous in today's world and it might be important to come up with a strategy to ensure that the world knows what "Macedonia for the Macedonians" means.

Take the responses in the thread as a test as to what it means to them. None of them have said it means a place only meant for Macedonians, as your suggesting it does.

It could mean Macedonia belongs to the Macedonians, it could mean
Greeks get out, Bulgarians get out, and give us back our lands.

But, that is not the same as saying its a land meant only for Macedonians.

You make nationalism sound like a dirty word. There is nothing wrong with nationalism, just your particular brand of it.

[Venom]

All good all good -- just, let's not confuse Macedonians with those who chose to call themselves as such after 1990.

[Dejan]

All good all good -- just, let's not confuse Macedonians with those who chose to call themselves as such after 1990.

There are no other people who refer to themselves as simply Macedonians, except Macedonians themselves. We have no other name. Even when athenians try to re-christen us, they cannot rid us of our name.

[Coolski]

Take the responses in the thread as a test as to what it means to them. None of them have said it means a place only meant for Macedonians, as your suggesting it does.

It could mean Macedonia belongs to the Macedonians, it could mean
Greeks get out, Bulgarians get out, and give us back our lands.

But, that is not the same as saying its a land meant only for Macedonians.

You make nationalism sound like a dirty word. There is nothing wrong with nationalism, just your particular brand of it.

Yes, judging by the responses in this thread it seems that most people here have the intended idea as to what 'Macedonia for the Macedonians' means from the original VMRO's concept, which is great. This is a safer way to culture a national identity. However, under this definition of "Macedonia for the Macedonians", the Macedonian nation is not necessarily the same as the Macedonian ethnicity. Would you agree with this observation Pelister?