Macedonian Immiration

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  • DraganOfStip
    Senior Member
    • Aug 2011
    • 1253

    Macedonian Immiration

    As someone who spent his whole life in the Republic,I have been whitnessing a huge number of Macedonians leaving the country in search for a better life abroad.
    Roughly 60% of my friends have moved out through the years.
    I went looking online to see exactly how many people immigrated since our independance and the results are startling.
    According to the World Bank, 447 000 people have permanently relocated from Macedonia.
    And according to Eurostat, over 230 000 people immgirated in the period between 1998 and 2011.
    (Couldn't find direct links to both researches,maybe some of you will have better luck).
    German media report that in the first 6 months of this year alone,7000 Macedonians filed asylum papers in that country.
    And these are the official,confirmed and regulated numbers.Who knows what the real number is if you add the unregistered ones...

    These numbers are frightening for a 21st century European country in development.
    As of 1991,the govermnents of SDSM and DPMNE have drained our economy and made living conditions suitable only for their closest supporters.
    Anyone who votes for them (that isn't a member or their "beneficiery") is commiting slow and painful suicide.
    I just wonder how will they provide money for salaries when the last Macedonian moves out and there are no more people to collect taxes from.
    And slowly but surelly,things are moving in that direction...




    Last edited by DraganOfStip; 07-27-2015, 06:45 AM.
    ”A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims... but accomplices”
    ― George Orwell
  • Risto the Great
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 15659

    #2
    Plenty of Albanians there.
    Sadly.

    A terrible observation Dragan. Such a lack of hope there!
    Risto the Great
    MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
    "Holding my breath for the revolution."

    Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

    Comment

    • Risto the Great
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 15659

      #3
      I'm surprised nobody else added to the comments Dragan.
      The worst part of your observation is that it is obviously the younger ones who are leaving.
      Risto the Great
      MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
      "Holding my breath for the revolution."

      Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

      Comment

      • Gocka
        Senior Member
        • Dec 2012
        • 2306

        #4
        Its not a new trend. In fact I've seen statistics from back to the 70's and it was just as bad. More Macedonians live outside Macedonia currently then in. I can understand people leaving looking for a better life, I don't blame anyone for that. The real problem is that people never come back, nor invest in Macedonia. Again there are good reasons for that too, considering how bad corruption is and how bad living conditions are you can't blame people for not wanting to throw away hard earned money and destabilize their lives by moving back to Macedonia.

        The only thing I can say is that it's easy to run away. The reason Macedonia this way, is because Macedonians don't want to do the dirty and hard work required to build a strong nation. They would rather take the easy way out and move abroad and integrate into already established nations. We would rather chase wealth rather than create it. We elect crooked politicians because of the immediate gain they promise, but ignore the long term detriment to freedom and stability. Simple fact is that we don't take enough pride in our nation to want to put in the effort to make it what we want it to be. This is a criticism of all Macedonians, both in the Republic and in the Diaspora.

        All the intelligent and hard working people have moved out, or are going to move out, all that is left is those who are stuck and those who are connected.

        We go to the USA, Canada, and Australia, and we are little angles. We work hard, we save money, we follow the laws, we are model citizens. Yet in our native homeland, we pollute, we always look for a way around the laws, we don't respect anyone or anything and we won't work nearly as hard.

        The only hope for Macedonia is that a strong political leader we totally dismantle the corruption and set an example that the people will follow. Then with political and economic stability, I bet that many Macedonians would return home and invest in Macedonia.

        I know many Macedonians including myself who would be willing to take a leap of faith, but in Macedonians current state, it would be a leap of suicide.

        Macedonia needs better education and factories, not more cafes and restaurants. It also needs to stop vacationing abroad and try to keep capital in the country. It needs to start producing more food stuff and stop importing things that could easily be made domestically. I also think Macedonia can have a strong banking system that can make money by lending to other countries. Tourism can definitely grow bigger and more diverse.

        It's really not that hard, you just have to want it.

        Comment

        • DraganOfStip
          Senior Member
          • Aug 2011
          • 1253

          #5
          Originally posted by Gocka View Post
          Its not a new trend. In fact I've seen statistics from back to the 70's and it was just as bad.
          Immigrations exist since the dawn of men,my point was that since our independance the immigration rate is growing rapidly and the past 2 decades or so it's at the peak.
          Do you have any links to the number of Macedonians that emigrated in the 70's and 80's? Is it official data?

          Macedonia needs better education and factories, not more cafes and restaurants. It also needs to stop vacationing abroad and try to keep capital in the country. It needs to start producing more food stuff and stop importing things that could easily be made domestically. I also think Macedonia can have a strong banking system that can make money by lending to other countries. Tourism can definitely grow bigger and more diverse.
          Education in Macedonia is very good (for pupils/students that are willing to learn).I know from experience that we learn things here in grade school that western kids learn in high school.

          Factories - well,we have plenty of those.The problem is that the workers are very low paid.

          Vacationing - Ohrigjani forced most Macedonians (or should I say those who can afford) to go to Greece/Bulgaria for the holidays with their rudeness and sky-rocketed prices.They are responsible for their own demise.

          As far as food production is concerned - I'm 100% with you.There are farmers that can't cope with the imported,cheaper (but also less quality) food products,and people here always buy the cheaper thigs.
          The government needs to stimulate domestic food production,domestic food is always the best.

          I also believe more power plants need to be built in order to cut our dependance from imported electricity which is much more expensive.
          Yetsrday I read that the "Skopje 2014" project which was suppossed to cost some 80 million eur has already drained more than half a billion euros.Those money could have been used for the power plants...
          ”A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims... but accomplices”
          ― George Orwell

          Comment

          • vicsinad
            Senior Member
            • May 2011
            • 2337

            #6
            Originally posted by DraganOfStip View Post
            Immigrations exist since the dawn of men,my point was that since our independance the immigration rate is growing rapidly and the past 2 decades or so it's at the peak.
            Do you have any links to the number of Macedonians that emigrated in the 70's and 80's? Is it official data?
            I can't give you official data. I can tell you that, from my personal observations and understanding, the majority of Macedonians in the US are from the late 60s through the early 80s. There were a lot that came before, and a lot that are coming now, but that seems to me to be the peak. Sure, immigration has always happened. But the majority of Macedonian emigrants living in the US in the early 1900s were only here for work and did actually go back to Macedonia.

            Education in Macedonia is very good (for pupils/students that are willing to learn).I know from experience that we learn things here in grade school that western kids learn in high school.
            That's true for pre-university students. And the public institutions in Macedonia are really good, too. But the private universities are literally where you go to degree shop. My uncle taught at a few universities in Macedonia and says its ridiculous -- no one has to do their work; people pay to have their scores fixed; and anyone demanding change to the system is scolded because that would hurt their profits. Thus, you have a lot of university graduates in Macedonia who paid for a degree but really didn't get an education, who don't want to work their parents' land, or don't want to work for low pay in skilled labor, so would rather sit in a cafe all day or hang out at the beach, which if not funded by their parents' hard earned money, are funded by beating up their dedos for their pensions. I just don't get it.

            Vacationing - Ohrigjani forced most Macedonians (or should I say those who can afford) to go to Greece/Bulgaria for the holidays with their rudeness and sky-rocketed prices.They are responsible for their own demise.
            Lake Prespa is right over the mountain And probably a whole lot cheaper than Ohrid, Greece or Bulgaria.

            Factories - well,we have plenty of those.The problem is that the workers are very low paid.
            Sometimes not paid at all, either. Also, sometimes getting and keeping a job depends on whether or not you've kept your mouth shut about one or the other political parties. But, as with most issues noted in this thread, Macedonians seem complacent with this cultural trend of not caring that much, or not thinking that they can make a difference, or only wanting to make a difference that affects their bottom line and to hell with the rest, or waiting for someone else to fix it. Sure, demanding change may require hard sacrifices -- perhaps losing a job, perhaps being jailed, perhaps being shunned by others. But do the people want a change or no? They talk like they do but act like they don't.

            Yetsrday I read that the "Skopje 2014" project which was suppossed to cost some 80 million eur has already drained more than half a billion euros.Those money could have been used for the power plants...
            I saw that and it's very disturbing. What's being done about it? Or what can be done about it?

            Comment

            • DraganOfStip
              Senior Member
              • Aug 2011
              • 1253

              #7
              Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
              That's true for pre-university students. And the public institutions in Macedonia are really good, too. But the private universities are literally where you go to degree shop. My uncle taught at a few universities in Macedonia and says its ridiculous -- no one has to do their work; people pay to have their scores fixed; and anyone demanding change to the system is scolded because that would hurt their profits. Thus, you have a lot of university graduates in Macedonia who paid for a degree but really didn't get an education, who don't want to work their parents' land, or don't want to work for low pay in skilled labor, so would rather sit in a cafe all day or hang out at the beach, which if not funded by their parents' hard earned money, are funded by beating up their dedos for their pensions. I just don't get it.
              There is a great dose of truth there.I personally couldn't afford college and therefore I'm not the most suitable person to elaborate the degree of quality our universities offer, but those friends of mine that did often cited those bribe and corruption cases that had become the rule rather than the exception in their student lives.
              One thing I can tell you - you won't see a University professor's house without a couple of satellite dishes,a solar panel,big plazma screen TV's,at least 2 cars and a Pekingese dog named Cesar.

              Lake Prespa is right over the mountain And probably a whole lot cheaper than Ohrid, Greece or Bulgaria.
              You got that right.In my opinion Prespa is the most underrated vacation resort in Macedonia,even more than Dojran.

              I saw that and it's very disturbing. What's being done about it? Or what can be done about it?
              Absolutely nothing.
              The people that can do something about it (financial inspectors etc) are party employees.
              You wouldn't bite the hand that feeds you,would you?
              Random whining about that will stop pretty soon and that will be it,as always.
              ”A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims... but accomplices”
              ― George Orwell

              Comment

              • Gocka
                Senior Member
                • Dec 2012
                • 2306

                #8
                Dragan,

                Sorry my friend but I have to disagree on a few points.

                Education- I find Macedonia's institutions archaic and corrupt. For example the methods of instruction are deeply rooted in communist style presentation of random facts and testing of a students ability to regurgitate said facts. Then there is the material itself which is sometimes too broad and random. Students are made to be critical thinkers, and aren't given a chance to color outside the lines. From my personal experience Macedonians are poorly educated and lack knowledge in some basic topics like math, and science. Simply going to school and going through the movements doesn't produce educated people, all it produces is people with degrees. If that is what you meant, that Macedonia has many people with degrees, then you are correct. The percent of Macedonians that have degrees is pretty good, but in my opinion the percentage of Macedonians that are actually educated and compared to the level of education in other European and Western countries, I have to say Macedonia is near the bottom. I started off at a modest college in New Jersey, and my professors for Marketing, Economics, accounting and International Business were a former VP of marketing for Pepsi, a former VP of investments at Chase bank, a former director at Alcoa, and a former treasurer at Fuji film. We had guest speakers like Paul Kurgman, to talk about economic policy. If you go to some of the top colleges, you will have former world leaders as professors. It just doesn't compare. We haven't even gotten into the corruption both institutional and students themselves. How many students get degrees based on connections? This diminishes the value of everyone's degrees when you have people who are just handed a degree. Then there is professors writing their own text books and making their students purchase and use their text books or else they fail. Tel me honestly what professor in Macedonia is accomplished enough to be allowed to write their own text books? How about the fact that student dormitories in Skopje look worse then prisons. How about giving students a dozen chances to pass an exam, instead of just failing them if they don't pass. I still don't completely understand the testing and grading process at Macedonian colleges. Here in the US its simple. You take your course, you are tested at various points during the course, your different tests are weighted and if at the end of the semester your grade is non passing, you fail and must retake the entire course form the beginning. Then their is the little things, like old text books, lack of technology, lack of choice in pursuing a targeted path, lack of supplies, poorly educated teachers, lack of repercussions for under performing teachers. All in all the entire system and the quality of the education is very shallow. It may produce a few good statistics that VMRO can talk about, but in the end the average educated Macedonian is at a disadvantage to other educated people in the world. Oh and lets not forget the parallel Albanian educational system which basically ensure that future Albanian generations will be even less Macedonian citizens than their parents.

                Factories, There are a few out there, and yes they pay poorly, mostly because of the above lack of education. You don't need factories producing trinkets, and utilizing cheap unskilled labor. You need mechanical and software engineers, who can design and produce technology, and machinery. Macedonia needs to specialize in an industry or two. You can just wait around for a random company to decide they want to fill soap bottles in Stip. Macedonia needs to invest in an industry all the way from education to infrastructure. You want good paying factory jobs, well then you need to be better at someone else at doing something complicated. Anyone can fill soap bottles. In Macedonia we produce fruits, but in Slovenia they make pastries and juices from our fruit. You have to start somewhere, so I think Macedonia should be a finished food producer. You need to educate people in manufacturing, agriculture, food science and economics. You need subsidies for farmers and food stuff manufacturers.

                Tourism, When I say tourism I don't just mean Ohrid. Macedonia has a lot more to offer than just a few Cafes and a lake. We have gorgeous landscapes that can attract eco tourism, hiking and river rafting, skiing, and other activity based attractions. Casinos and resorts are also an option. Also the myth that Orhid has some how become more expensive than Paris is just an excuse and a down right lie. Orhid is still 50% cheaper than Greece in Food, drink, and lodging. A cheese burger in Greece costs 4.5 euros, in Ohrid its 2 euros. Alcohol is also twice the price as in Ohrid. Not to mention even if they cost exactly the same, you are sending capital right out the door, and to our nemesis. Even if Ohrid were twice the price (Its not) there is still an argument to be made against it. Just admit that it is the "cool" thing to do, and has nothing to do with what more economical.

                I agree on the power plant but its not as feasible as you might think. Because Macedonia is small, it would have to be state run, and probably export some energy for it to pay off for Macedonian tax payers. The problem is that we have no way of powering it. We don't have an raw energy sources other than sun and wind, maybe some hydro electric. We don't have the education required for nuclear power plants. A private company wont want to build and operate plants inside Macedonia because there is no money in it. So again if its going to be state owned and run, then the cost to taxpayers has to be less then the savings from lower electricity prices In theory its a good idea but I'm not sure if it would work in practice.

                Every country just like every individual, has to have unique ability, something they are good at. What is Macedonia good at? Absolutely nothing. You can't have a functioning economy yet not be competitive in anything. Then top it off with a heap of political corruption and you have a black hole where nothing functions.

                Again none of this is that hard, it just takes the right attitude. You need to be hard working, patient, and honest, eventually things will fall into place. Unfortunately we want things to change immediately, we are not honest, and we don't have the right attitude.

                Most of these improvements would benefits kids who aren't even born yet, most people aren't willing to work hard to benefit a future generation, they will only work hard if it benefits them right now.

                Comment

                • George S.
                  Senior Member
                  • Aug 2009
                  • 10116

                  #9
                  People are leaving in droves does anyone really care,?The govt does not care for the diaspora at all.There wouildn't be thyat many retiring in their fatherland.What povision is there or nurturing for people to stay. There is none to come back.
                  "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                  GOTSE DELCEV

                  Comment

                  • Risto the Great
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 15659

                    #10
                    Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
                    I saw that and it's very disturbing. What's being done about it? Or what can be done about it?
                    I saw the recent article that suggested some artists were paid over 1 million Euro for their creations. I would be very surprised if all these deals were transparent.
                    Risto the Great
                    MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                    "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                    Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                    Comment

                    • Philosopher
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 1003

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Gocka View Post
                      Dragan,

                      Sorry my friend but I have to disagree on a few points.

                      Education- I find Macedonia's institutions archaic and corrupt. For example the methods of instruction are deeply rooted in communist style presentation of random facts and testing of a students ability to regurgitate said facts. Then there is the material itself which is sometimes too broad and random. Students are made to be critical thinkers, and aren't given a chance to color outside the lines. From my personal experience Macedonians are poorly educated and lack knowledge in some basic topics like math, and science. Simply going to school and going through the movements doesn't produce educated people, all it produces is people with degrees. If that is what you meant, that Macedonia has many people with degrees, then you are correct. The percent of Macedonians that have degrees is pretty good, but in my opinion the percentage of Macedonians that are actually educated and compared to the level of education in other European and Western countries, I have to say Macedonia is near the bottom. I started off at a modest college in New Jersey, and my professors for Marketing, Economics, accounting and International Business were a former VP of marketing for Pepsi, a former VP of investments at Chase bank, a former director at Alcoa, and a former treasurer at Fuji film. We had guest speakers like Paul Kurgman, to talk about economic policy. If you go to some of the top colleges, you will have former world leaders as professors. It just doesn't compare. We haven't even gotten into the corruption both institutional and students themselves. How many students get degrees based on connections? This diminishes the value of everyone's degrees when you have people who are just handed a degree. Then there is professors writing their own text books and making their students purchase and use their text books or else they fail. Tel me honestly what professor in Macedonia is accomplished enough to be allowed to write their own text books? How about the fact that student dormitories in Skopje look worse then prisons. How about giving students a dozen chances to pass an exam, instead of just failing them if they don't pass. I still don't completely understand the testing and grading process at Macedonian colleges. Here in the US its simple. You take your course, you are tested at various points during the course, your different tests are weighted and if at the end of the semester your grade is non passing, you fail and must retake the entire course form the beginning. Then their is the little things, like old text books, lack of technology, lack of choice in pursuing a targeted path, lack of supplies, poorly educated teachers, lack of repercussions for under performing teachers. All in all the entire system and the quality of the education is very shallow. It may produce a few good statistics that VMRO can talk about, but in the end the average educated Macedonian is at a disadvantage to other educated people in the world. Oh and lets not forget the parallel Albanian educational system which basically ensure that future Albanian generations will be even less Macedonian citizens than their parents.
                      I find your characterization of the US education system somewhat misleading. The US educational system, by and large, is wholly corrupt, and is a system designed to produce servile workers who cannot think. Not sure how familiar you are with graduate school, for example, but in graduate school it is near impossible to get a grade lower than a "B". Why? Because a lower grader can lead to expulsion from a program, so unless the student is really really reckless, it is near impossible to get a grade lower than a "B".

                      The US education system is inflated, which is to say, it is based on the power of the US government. Take away the power of the US government and the prestige of the US system largely disappears. Yes, there are prominent individuals who teach and write books, but so what? In my experience, most professors are not all that bright. The US system is designed to get students to remember and repeat meaningless nonsense.

                      Frankly, I have learned more, far more, reading, studying, and analyzing on my own (reading and real life experience), then I did from university.

                      Comment

                      • VMRO
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 1462

                        #12
                        I believe all the countries in the Balkans are experiencing mass migration.

                        You give anyone the chance to leave... they will take it.

                        Not even the Syrians who are passing Macedonia want to settle there, they all want to go to the promise lands of Central Europe.
                        Verata vo Mislite, VMRO vo dushata, Makedonia vo Srceto.

                        Vnatreshna Makedonska Revolucionerna Organizacija.

                        Comment

                        • DraganOfStip
                          Senior Member
                          • Aug 2011
                          • 1253

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Gocka View Post
                          Dragan,

                          Sorry my friend but I have to disagree on a few points.

                          Education- I find Macedonia's institutions archaic and corrupt. For example the methods of instruction are deeply rooted in communist style presentation of random facts and testing of a students ability to regurgitate said facts. Then there is the material itself which is sometimes too broad and random. Students are made to be critical thinkers, and aren't given a chance to color outside the lines. From my personal experience Macedonians are poorly educated and lack knowledge in some basic topics like math, and science. Simply going to school and going through the movements doesn't produce educated people, all it produces is people with degrees. If that is what you meant, that Macedonia has many people with degrees, then you are correct. The percent of Macedonians that have degrees is pretty good, but in my opinion the percentage of Macedonians that are actually educated and compared to the level of education in other European and Western countries, I have to say Macedonia is near the bottom. I started off at a modest college in New Jersey, and my professors for Marketing, Economics, accounting and International Business were a former VP of marketing for Pepsi, a former VP of investments at Chase bank, a former director at Alcoa, and a former treasurer at Fuji film. We had guest speakers like Paul Kurgman, to talk about economic policy. If you go to some of the top colleges, you will have former world leaders as professors. It just doesn't compare. We haven't even gotten into the corruption both institutional and students themselves. How many students get degrees based on connections? This diminishes the value of everyone's degrees when you have people who are just handed a degree. Then there is professors writing their own text books and making their students purchase and use their text books or else they fail. Tel me honestly what professor in Macedonia is accomplished enough to be allowed to write their own text books? How about the fact that student dormitories in Skopje look worse then prisons. How about giving students a dozen chances to pass an exam, instead of just failing them if they don't pass. I still don't completely understand the testing and grading process at Macedonian colleges. Here in the US its simple. You take your course, you are tested at various points during the course, your different tests are weighted and if at the end of the semester your grade is non passing, you fail and must retake the entire course form the beginning. Then their is the little things, like old text books, lack of technology, lack of choice in pursuing a targeted path, lack of supplies, poorly educated teachers, lack of repercussions for under performing teachers. All in all the entire system and the quality of the education is very shallow. It may produce a few good statistics that VMRO can talk about, but in the end the average educated Macedonian is at a disadvantage to other educated people in the world. Oh and lets not forget the parallel Albanian educational system which basically ensure that future Albanian generations will be even less Macedonian citizens than their parents.
                          From my experience (and some friends that moved abroad) I know that our education in grade/high school is much better than the western.I'm not discussing the methods of teaching but it's a fact that our children know more things than western kids of same age.
                          Now,as I said in the previous post,I'm not a university-educated man and therefore I can't make comparisons between our universities and the western ones,I would be just speculating.

                          Factories, There are a few out there, and yes they pay poorly, mostly because of the above lack of education. You don't need factories producing trinkets, and utilizing cheap unskilled labor. You need mechanical and software engineers, who can design and produce technology, and machinery. Macedonia needs to specialize in an industry or two. You can just wait around for a random company to decide they want to fill soap bottles in Stip. Macedonia needs to invest in an industry all the way from education to infrastructure. You want good paying factory jobs, well then you need to be better at someone else at doing something complicated. Anyone can fill soap bottles. In Macedonia we produce fruits, but in Slovenia they make pastries and juices from our fruit. You have to start somewhere, so I think Macedonia should be a finished food producer. You need to educate people in manufacturing, agriculture, food science and economics. You need subsidies for farmers and food stuff manufacturers.
                          We do have high quality mechanical/electro engineers,software engineers etc.But these people are the ones that run the work in the factories,they're not the workers that make the final product,they just design it and oversee the manufacturing process.
                          The worker,the one that is sewing/knitting/assembling etc is a grade/high school educated person that just wants to make ends meet and provide food on the table.And workers in factories around the world are exactly the same,they're not college-degree intellectuals.
                          The difference is,in the west they're paid much much more and have greater worker rights,they have functioning worker's unions and have better work conditions.

                          Tourism, When I say tourism I don't just mean Ohrid. Macedonia has a lot more to offer than just a few Cafes and a lake. We have gorgeous landscapes that can attract eco tourism, hiking and river rafting, skiing, and other activity based attractions. Casinos and resorts are also an option. Also the myth that Orhid has some how become more expensive than Paris is just an excuse and a down right lie. Orhid is still 50% cheaper than Greece in Food, drink, and lodging. A cheese burger in Greece costs 4.5 euros, in Ohrid its 2 euros. Alcohol is also twice the price as in Ohrid. Not to mention even if they cost exactly the same, you are sending capital right out the door, and to our nemesis. Even if Ohrid were twice the price (Its not) there is still an argument to be made against it. Just admit that it is the "cool" thing to do, and has nothing to do with what more economical.
                          I agree on the first part - Macedonia has much more than Ohrid to offer and that's something that has to be covered and paid more attention to.
                          But regarding the prices it's not far off.And honestly,if you could vacate on a lakeside for a certain amount or at a SEA for just cents more,what would you pick?
                          Furthermore,Ohrigjani with their arrogance will never again get my money.Ever.
                          P.S: Not even ruling party members,who's party's official stance is to spend money in the Republic,can be seen anywhere in Macedonian resourts.They all post pictures from Greece,Bulgaria etc.
                          Even Grujo himself vacates in Israel at this very moment...

                          I agree on the power plant but its not as feasible as you might think. Because Macedonia is small, it would have to be state run, and probably export some energy for it to pay off for Macedonian tax payers. The problem is that we have no way of powering it. We don't have an raw energy sources other than sun and wind, maybe some hydro electric. We don't have the education required for nuclear power plants. A private company wont want to build and operate plants inside Macedonia because there is no money in it. So again if its going to be state owned and run, then the cost to taxpayers has to be less then the savings from lower electricity prices In theory its a good idea but I'm not sure if it would work in practice.
                          I'm not an economy expert but if power plants weren't lucrative then by logic people wouldn't build them.
                          On short terms it might be expensive but the long term effects of cheaper electricity are worth the investment.
                          And Macedonia has many artificial lakes that can incorporate hydro plants,and also many windy open ranges for windmill/solar power exploitation.
                          The potential is here,it just needs to be used.
                          Last edited by DraganOfStip; 07-29-2015, 05:04 AM.
                          ”A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims... but accomplices”
                          ― George Orwell

                          Comment

                          • Gocka
                            Senior Member
                            • Dec 2012
                            • 2306

                            #14
                            We are just going to have to disagree. If the US educational system didn't produce thinkers, then why does a great deal of the worlds brightest people, and innovation come from the US. The system in the US isn't perfect, but in comparison to Macedonia its light years ahead. In the end its up to the individual to care enough to want to learn and not just go through the motions. Education around the world has become some what mechanized, but how many advanced subjects can you study in Macedonia? I had to take calculus in high school and college, and I studied accounting, hardly a profession that requires calculus. The majority of college students in Macedonia dont even know what that is. Macedonians just pretend they know everything but if you quiz the average Macedonian on any topic, you will find they have very little actual knowledge outside their own assumptions.

                            Originally posted by Philosopher View Post
                            I find your characterization of the US education system somewhat misleading. The US educational system, by and large, is wholly corrupt, and is a system designed to produce servile workers who cannot think. Not sure how familiar you are with graduate school, for example, but in graduate school it is near impossible to get a grade lower than a "B". Why? Because a lower grader can lead to expulsion from a program, so unless the student is really really reckless, it is near impossible to get a grade lower than a "B".

                            The US education system is inflated, which is to say, it is based on the power of the US government. Take away the power of the US government and the prestige of the US system largely disappears. Yes, there are prominent individuals who teach and write books, but so what? In my experience, most professors are not all that bright. The US system is designed to get students to remember and repeat meaningless nonsense.

                            Frankly, I have learned more, far more, reading, studying, and analyzing on my own (reading and real life experience), then I did from university.

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                            • Gocka
                              Senior Member
                              • Dec 2012
                              • 2306

                              #15
                              There is actually a game show here in the US called "are you smarter than a fifth grader". The average little kid here in the US has more knowledge than an adult. The amount of material they cover is astonishing. I know there is this perception that Americans are stupid, and in some ways its true. In certain topics like history and geography, they are pathetic, but that is because they are arrogant, and don't care about any history other than the American revolution and Civil war, and world war 2. Where it really start to show is in College, and in advanced topics. The amount of people in Macedonia who are capable of teaching and understanding advanced topics is a handful.

                              [QUOTE=DraganOfStip;161308]From my experience (and some friends that moved abroad) I know that our education in grade/high school is much better than the western.I'm not discussing the methods of teaching but it's a fact that our children know more things than western kids of same age.
                              Now,as I said in the previous post,I'm not a university-educated man and therefore I can't make comparisons between our universities and the western ones,I would be just speculating.[quote/]



                              That's my point, all the jobs in the west that were for sewing and knitting went to Asia. Macedonia needs factories and factory workers that produce machinery, not fabric. Macedonians are lucky they get paid 150 euros a month to sew, considering Chinese will do it for a 100 or less. Macedonians are doing work that is already being done else where for much less. We need college educated factories and workers. That produce things a 10 year old Chinese kid can't. Those kind of low wage jobs don't exist in the west anymore either.

                              We do have high quality mechanical/electro engineers,software engineers etc.But these people are the ones that run the work in the factories,they're not the workers that make the final product,they just design it and oversee the manufacturing process.
                              The worker,the one that is sewing/knitting/assembling etc is a grade/high school educated person that just wants to make ends meet and provide food on the table.And workers in factories around the world are exactly the same,they're not college-degree intellectuals.
                              The difference is,in the west they're paid much much more and have greater worker rights,they have functioning worker's unions and have better work conditions.

                              Just because people do it doesn't make it right. The whole point is that they shouldn't. The whole point is that by doing it they are shooting themselves in the foot for tomorrow. All Macedonians are arrogant, not just Ohridzani. Again the cost difference between Ohrid and Greece is not pennies, its 50% more. People just want to be cool and are doing what the mob does. Not to mention what about Dojran and Prespa if you dont like Ohrid. Or even Struga. If you want to keep sending your money across the border than fine, but dont complain when your economy is bleeding money that won't come back. That arrogant Ohridzanets needs that income so he can buy products from the arrogant farmer or factory worker from Strumitca and Stip.

                              I agree on the first part - Macedonia has much more than Ohrid to offer and that's something that has to be covered and paid more attention to.
                              But regarding the prices it's not far off.And honestly,if you could vacate on a lakeside for a certain amount or at a SEA for just cents more,what would you pick?
                              Furthermore,Ohrigjani with their arrogance will never again get my money.Ever.
                              P.S: Not even ruling party members,who's party's official stance is to spend money in the Republic,can be seen anywhere in Macedonian resourts.They all post pictures from Greece,Bulgaria etc.
                              Even Grujo himself vacates in Israel at this very moment...
                              They do buy them but not in countries with 2 million people. Plus they buy them and charge what ever electricity rate makes a profit. If your goal is for the population to end up with cheaper electricity, then this option is not for you. It would probably cost less for the government to just give you money every month to pay your electricity.

                              I'm not an economy expert but if power plants weren't lucrative then by logic people wouldn't build them.
                              On short terms it might be expensive but the long term effects of cheaper electricity are worth the investment.
                              And Macedonia has many artificial lakes that can incorporate hydro plants,and also many windy open ranges for windmill/solar power exploitation.
                              The potential is here,it just needs to be used.

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