The Theory of Evolution

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  • Philosopher
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 1003

    #91
    More evolutionary trickery.





    At the beginning of the nineteenth century, most moths in the UK were an off-white color, highly adapted to hiding from predators, such as birds, by resting on pale, mottled grey tree trunks. But the Industrial Revolution polluted the environment, raining soot down on the countryside. As a result, white moths became highly visible on the now blackened tree trunks. Black moths, on the other hand, such as the peppered moth (which had previously been quite rare), suddenly had a competitive advantage. They were well camouflaged on black tree trunks, and their numbers grew exponentially. By the early twentieth century, they were the dominant moth form in polluted areas of the UK.

    The above story is considered the classic example of "evolution in action." It shows how an environmental change can give one form of a species a selective advantage, leading to its dominance. Its validity rests upon experiments conducted by researcher H.B.D. Kettlewell during the 1950s, which demonstrated that white moths do have an advantage over dark moths on pale trees, and a disadvantage on dark trees, and vice versa.

    But what made the story of the peppered moth particularly popular was the visual evidence. In 1955 Kettlewell published a pair of photos showing the relative camouflage of the black and white moth forms in the two settings. In the top photo it is easy to see the black moth on the pale, lichen-covered bark and to imagine how a bird could pick it off, but the white moth is almost invisible. In the bottom photo, by contrast, the black moth is almost invisible while resting on a soot-blackened tree.

    Since the mid-1960s most Biology textbooks have included the story of the peppered moth, accompanied by Kettlewell's two photos (or ones very similar to them). The ubiquity of the images made it that much more shocking when the public learned the photos were staged. Finding black and white moths posed beside each other in a natural setting would have been almost impossible, so to create the photos Kettlewell pinned dead moths to tree trunks. Moth experts knew the photos were staged because live moths would not have had extended wings. But no textbook ever disclosed this detail to readers.

    The staging of the photos was first raised as an issue by intelligent-design advocate Jonathan Wells in his 2000 work Icons of Evolution. But the controversy reached a more mainstream audience in 2002 when science writer Judith Hopper discussed it in her popular account of the science of the peppered moth, Of Moths and Men.

    The staging was an issue, critics argued, because it over-simplified the peppered moth story and made it seem that the camouflage of the moths was a self-evident advantage. However, it wasn't clear that moths rested on tree trunks during the day, as the pictures implied. Some evidence suggested they preferred to remain higher in the tree canopy and beneath branches where their coloration would have been less of an advantage. Also, it wasn't clear that birds were the main predator of moths. Bats also ate moths, and since bats use echolocation to navigate, the coloration of the moths would not have made a difference. Critics also questioned the methodology of Kettlewell's experiments.

    Scientists still vigorously defend the peppered moth story as an example of evolution in action. They also defend the use of the staged photos in textbooks, arguing that, although they're not entirely accurate, they offer an invaluable way of presenting the concept of natural selection to students in an easy-to-comprehend form.

    Nevertheless, the pair of images has become one of the most famous and controversial examples of staged photographs in all of science.
    At the beginning of the nineteenth century, most moths in the UK were an off-white color, highly adapted to hiding from predators, such as birds, by resting on pale, mottled grey tree trunks. But the Industrial Revolution polluted the environment, raining soot down on the countryside. As a result, white moths became highly visible on the now blackened tree trunks. Black moths, on the other hand, such as the peppered moth (which had previously been quite rare), suddenly had a competitive advantage. They were well camouflaged on black tree trunks, and their numbers grew exponentially. By the early twentieth century, they were the dominant moth form in polluted areas of the UK.The above story is considered the classic example of evolution in action. It shows how an environmental change can give one form of a species a selective advantage, leading to its dominance. Its validity rests upon experiments conducted by researcher H.B.D. Kettlewell during the 1950s, which demonstrated that white moths do have an advantage over dark moths on pale trees, and a disadvantage on dark trees, and vice versa.But what made the story of the peppered moth particularly popular was the visual evidence. In 1955 Kettlewell published a pair of photos showing the relative camouflage of the black and white moth forms in the two settings. In the top photo it is easy to see the black moth on the pale, lichen-covered bark and to imagine how a bird could pick it off, but the white moth is almost invisible. In the bottom photo, by contrast, the black moth is almost invisible while resting on a soot-blackened tree. Since the mid-1960s most Biology textbooks have included the story of the peppered moth, accompanied by Kettlewell's two photos (or ones very similar to them). The ubiquity of the images made it that much more shocking when the public learned the photos were staged. Finding black and white moths posed beside each other in a natural setting would have been almost impossible, so to create the photos Kettlewell pinned dead moths to tree trunks. Moth experts knew the photos were staged because live moths would not have had extended wings. But no textbook ever disclosed this detail to readers.The staging of the photos was first raised as an issue by intelligent-design advocate Jonathan Wells in his 2000 work Icons of Evolution. But the controversy reached a more mainstream audience in 2002 when science writer Judith Hopper discussed it in her popular account of the science of the peppered moth, Of Moths and Men. The staging was an issue, critics argued, because it over-simplified the peppered moth story and made it seem that the camouflage of the moths was a self-evident advantage. However, it wasn't clear that moths rested on tree trunks during the day, as the pictures implied. Some evidence suggested they preferred to remain higher in the tree canopy and beneath branches where their coloration would have been less of an advantage. Also, it wasn't clear that birds were the main predator of moths. Bats also ate moths, and since bats use echolocation to navigate, the coloration of the moths would not have made a difference. Critics also questioned the methodology of Kettlewell's experiments.Scientists still vigorously defend the peppered moth story as an example of evolution in action. They also defend the use of the staged photos in textbooks, arguing that, although they're not entirely accurate, they offer an invaluable way of presenting the concept of natural selection to students in an easy-to-comprehend form.Nevertheless, the pair of images has become one of the most famous and controversial examples of staged photographs in all of science.

    Comment

    • spitfire
      Banned
      • Aug 2014
      • 868

      #92
      Excellent examples of how evolution works through selection of the environment Philosopher. Couldn't have given better examples myself.

      Comment

      • Philosopher
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 1003

        #93
        Originally posted by Spirtfire
        Do you think that maybe the creation of man was not something that was done from scratch, but rather a soul given to him (by God presumably) at some point of his evolution?
        Man was created from the dust of the ground in one day by God and he breathed the breath of life in man. Man is not the result of evolution.

        From a Christian perspective, the theory of evolution is incompatible with the Bible.

        Let me explain.

        Genesis tells us death came by Adam and Eve's transgression. Evolution, however, teaches death is a natural process of the universe. It would have to be in order for new species to evolve.

        If death did not come by sin, as evolution teaches, than the life and death of Jesus Christ means nothing.

        Jesus Christ is the second Adam. He came to restore what was lost in the Garden of Eve. If death is caused by sin, as the Bible teaches, and Christ lived a sinless life, he can resurrect from the grave because Satan and death had no power over him.

        Moreover, if death is a natural process, and it is not the result of sin, then why would God become man to save man from his sins?

        So my question to anyone claims to be a Christian evolutionist:

        Is death a natural process or is it the result of sin? If it is a natural process, then Jesus is not the second Adam; Jesus did not come to restore what was lost by Adam; and Jesus Christ could not die for anyone's sins; and Jesus Christ could not rise from the dead.

        If these things are true, than Christianity cannot be true.

        It is one or the other.

        Period.
        Last edited by Philosopher; 10-30-2014, 02:02 PM.

        Comment

        • Philosopher
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 1003

          #94
          Originally posted by spitfire View Post
          Excellent examples of how evolution works through selection of the environment Philosopher. Couldn't have given better examples myself.
          I understand English is your second language, but the examples provided earlier are examples of forgery. They are fake. The story of the moths proves microevolution, which has already been documented, is an observable fact and does not prove the theory of evolution.

          The Piltdown man is 100% fake.

          Comment

          • spitfire
            Banned
            • Aug 2014
            • 868

            #95
            Originally posted by Philosopher View Post
            I understand English is your second language, but the examples provided earlier are examples of forgery. They are fake. The story of the moths proves microevolution, which has already been documented, is an observable fact and does not prove the theory of evolution.

            The Piltdown man is 100% fake.
            They are excellent examples of natural selection, regardless everything else.
            It's what creationists don't seem to grasp when they talk about evolution. They tend to think only in a DNA level, which is a part of the evolution process, not the whole thing.

            Comment

            • spitfire
              Banned
              • Aug 2014
              • 868

              #96
              Originally posted by Philosopher View Post
              Man was created from the dust of the ground in one day by God and he breathed the breath of life in man. Man is not the result of evolution.

              From a Christian perspective, the theory of evolution is incompatible with the Bible.

              Let me explain.

              Genesis tells us death came by Adam and Eve's transgression. Evolution, however, teaches death is a natural process of the universe. It would have to be in order for new species to evolve.

              If death did not come by sin, as evolution teaches, than the life and death of Jesus Christ means nothing.

              Jesus Christ is the second Adam. He came to restore what was lost in the Garden of Eve. If death is caused by sin, as the Bible teaches, and Christ lived a sinless life, he can resurrect from the grave because Satan and death had no power over him.

              Moreover, if death is a natural process, and it is not the result of sin, then why would God become man to save man from his sins?

              So my question to anyone claims to be a Christian evolutionist:

              Is death a natural process or is it the result of sin? If it is a natural process, then Jesus is not the second Adam; Jesus did not come to restore what was lost by Adam; and Jesus Christ could not die for anyone's sins; and Jesus Christ could not rise from the dead.

              If these things are true, than Christianity cannot be true.

              It is one or the other.

              Period.
              The concept of someone coming in a little spec of dust in the universe, to choose to die in a horrific way, in order to save other specs of dust from their sins is what you'd call illogical.

              But then again, religion is not explained on the basis of logic. Nor does faith. From this point on, there is a fundamental disagreement between creationists and evolutionists, which I think it is never going to settle. The reason for this is that both sides have a different approach of explaining things.

              Comment

              • Philosopher
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 1003

                #97
                Originally posted by Spitfire
                They are excellent examples of natural selection, regardless everything else.
                It's what creationists don't seem to grasp when they talk about evolution. They tend to think only in a DNA level, which is a part of the evolution process, not the whole thing.
                At this point in time I would have to conclude that you are really, really, dumb – far dumber than I could I have previously imagined – or you are just playing silly games.

                Frankly, I'm not sure which it is, but I have no interest in ascertaining this.

                The Piltdown man is fake. It is fake. It is fake. It is fake. It cannot be an “excellent example” of anything other than a fake.

                No creationist denies natural selection within the realm of microevolution. Plants and species adapt to survive. This is not evidence of macroevoltuion.

                We are not debating microevolution because no one denies it. It is an observable fact.

                The concept of someone coming in a little spec of dust in the universe, to choose to die in a horrific way, in order to save other specs of dust from their sins is what you'd call illogical.
                No. It is called the love of God. “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son”.

                But then again, religion is not explained on the basis of logic. Nor does faith. From this point on, there is a fundamental disagreement between creationists and evolutionists, which I think it is never going to settle. The reason for this is that both sides have a different approach of explaining things.
                And it is comments such as these that makes me wonder why I would waste a second of my time discoursing with you.
                Last edited by Philosopher; 10-30-2014, 04:58 PM.

                Comment

                • spitfire
                  Banned
                  • Aug 2014
                  • 868

                  #98
                  Philosopher, I couldn't care less what you think of me, I can assure you that the feeling is mutual.

                  However, you fail to give a logical understanding of the matter. This is the case with all creationists and that's what makes them less credible than evolutionists.
                  Science stands on disbelief of those claims, involving logic and that's how it is.
                  You explain it different but not logically. It is for each one to choose what he thinks is the best way for him.

                  I'll be waiting your claims about the flat earth.
                  Last edited by spitfire; 10-30-2014, 03:01 PM.

                  Comment

                  • George S.
                    Senior Member
                    • Aug 2009
                    • 10116

                    #99
                    In the book if isaiah it says the earth is the circle of a round earth.God should know his creation.Man is the one who doesn't.
                    Guys all who claim that we evolved i'm not inspired.
                    "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                    GOTSE DELCEV

                    Comment

                    • spitfire
                      Banned
                      • Aug 2014
                      • 868

                      Behold the truth! The earth is not rectangular then!

                      Watch out for those edges, you might fall off. From my balcony I can see the moon but not Australia. Therefore the moon is a discus and Australia does not exist.
                      Last edited by spitfire; 10-30-2014, 03:21 PM.

                      Comment

                      • Vangelovski
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 8532

                        Originally posted by Philosopher View Post
                        An honest evolutionist would have to admit that the theory of evolution is based on the belief that a mindless, unguided, and undirected natural processes produced out of nothing very sophisticated and highly cogent information that in any under setting can only be consistent with a rational intelligent mind.
                        This is the problem with evolutionary theory. They want to make whopping assumptions and take life and "original" information as a given (claiming they are not required to explain them) and then build a theory about how a molecule could have evolved into a fully functioning creature. Outside of vicsinad, I've never seen an evolutionist claim that there is no need for new information. They've always tried to explain how new information is created but have failed to do so.

                        Even vicsinad is not sure about whether he thinks new information has been created or not, then he has the audacity to accuse others of changing definitions.

                        First he tried to answer my question on how new information is produced by fobbing of a few articles that talk about rearranging existing information and a loss of information. Then he claimed that new information is created from old information, but couldn't explain how, other than to rehash the story of rearranging existing information:

                        Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
                        You won't accept that new information is created from old information.

                        Think of it as a musical scale. Given any 12 notes, you can make nearly an infinite number of patterns and combinations of varying lengths.

                        Genes work the same way. The same bases are always used. Endless combinations are made.
                        Then he claimed that all the necessary information was already in existence (something naturalists just can't explain but want us to accept on faith) from which evolution could build on but didn't explain how it builds on it:

                        Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
                        The original soup, as you called it, contained the information necessary to eventually get to genetic information, even if you don't consider it genetic in nature.
                        Then he claimed that no new information was needed:

                        Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
                        Further, you want me to show how we have gone from molecule to man. The question is the problem, not the answer. For man is just molecules. No new information was added.
                        Worse yet, he's implying that asking how molecule's turned into man is the problem and that we should not ask that question - we should just accept it on faith I guess. Very scientific.

                        Finally he admits that no new information is created:

                        Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
                        Genetic information is just chemicals. The stuff that leads to genetic information is just chemicals. Thus, no new information is created.
                        Maybe vicsinad is just a bad representation of what evolutionists believe, but if he didn't worm around so much, it would become blindingly obvious that evolution has massive gaping holes and is built on assumptions (origin of life, "original" information) that we are told not to question, just accept. Evolutionists teach that one-celled organisms (e.g. protozoa) have given rise to pelicans, pomegranates, people and ponies. In each case, the DNA ‘recipe’ has had to undergo a massive net increase of information during the alleged millions of years. A one-celled organism does not have the instructions for how to manufacture eyes, ears, blood, skin, hooves, brains, etc. which ponies need. So for protozoa to have given rise to ponies, there would have to be some mechanism that gives rise to new information, but all we observe is sorting and, overwhelmingly, loss of information. If anything, the journey of information is going in the opposite direction to what is required for evolution to be true.
                        Last edited by Vangelovski; 10-30-2014, 06:42 PM.
                        If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                        The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                        Comment

                        • vicsinad
                          Senior Member
                          • May 2011
                          • 2337

                          Your inability to understand science, to understand what you yourself mean by information, to not address any of my posts with honestly or any integrity -- all that demonstrates who's doing the worming around.

                          Not only does Tom not believe that life changes, he doesn't beleive that hydrogen and oxygen form water. He doesn't acknowledge that something new was created with the same old information. He thinks morality is absolute and that observations of the physical world are relative.

                          Comment

                          • DraganOfStip
                            Senior Member
                            • Aug 2011
                            • 1253

                            Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
                            H and O are two elements on the periodic table. They have their own properties. H2O is water....that stuff you drink and swim in and bathe with. It can also appear as ice and water vapor. This is "new" ...meaning, H2O can do things that neither H, 2 H's, or O can do alone. However, H2O did not require the creation of anything other than H and O, which already exist, in order to create something with "new" properties that aren't seen in H or O. Huh, something "new" has arisen from the same old information.

                            I think that's as "dumbed-down" as it can get.

                            Call me an infidel,but I just can't see how entire humanity could come from a single male and a single female individual that magically came into existence at some point in history.
                            ”A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims... but accomplices”
                            ― George Orwell

                            Comment

                            • George S.
                              Senior Member
                              • Aug 2009
                              • 10116

                              How can something evolve from nothing.
                              Thre must be a creator or designer who planned and desined it.
                              The first rule of biogenesys is life comes from life.
                              God is the life giver.life does not come from the dead but the living.
                              God created all things by jesus christ.
                              Jesus spoke and the father god did it.
                              Isnt that amazing gosaid let us us us not let me
                              Let us make man in our image in gods image was made man.lower than the angels but later as sons of hod in the ressurection of the fead.from flesh to lmmortal spirit.
                              We eill be transformed into the god
                              Family .that is stupendous truth.aint it?? There is no other god or anything
                              Under heaven except god and jesus.One God composed of many persons in the future.trillions upon
                              Trillions of people??? God is doing a tfully
                              Amazing things with man.
                              Last edited by George S.; 11-06-2014, 05:51 PM.
                              "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                              GOTSE DELCEV

                              Comment

                              • Vangelovski
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 8532

                                This whole H2O example is irrelevant to the discussion of new genetic information and could, at best, be analogous to the rearranging of existing information. The fact that it is not new is admitted even by vicsinad who is forced to use inverted commas when referring to new.

                                The way vicsinad portrays it, its as if H2O can turn into living matter and "evolve" into a tiger. That is not going to happen because a) non-living matter cannot turn into living matter and b) for H20 (or anything else) to evolve, there would need to be a mechanism to generate new genetic information (which is clearly impossible), a mechanism to read that information, a mechanism to translate that information and a mechanism to reproduce that information. But that then introduces the problem of irreducible complexity, yet another gaping hole in the theory (or should I say hypothesis) of evolution.

                                Finally, the example is unable to explain where the H or O came from in the first place.
                                If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                                The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                                Comment

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