Genetics and DNA of Balkan Populations

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  • Philosopher
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 1003

    #76
    A genetic study was conducted at the Department of Forensic Medicine, Medical University of Gdansk, Poland in 2007 and the researchers concluded that the homeland of the Slavs was in present day Ukraine.

    The observed northern Slavic Y-STR genetic homogeneity extends from Slovakia and Ukraine to parts of Russia and Belarus, but also involves Southern-Slavic populations of Slovenia and western Croatia, and is the most probably due to a homogeneous genetic substrate inherited from the ancestral Slavic population. However, due to the Y-STR proximity of linguistically and geographically Southern-Slavic Slovenes and western Croats to the northern Slavic branch, the observed genetic differentiation cannot simply be explained by the separation of both Slavic-speaking groups by the non-Slavic Romanians, Hungarians, and German-speaking Austrians. A similar difference has been previously reported between Bulgarians and a few other Slavic populations (Roewer et al. 2005), and our results demonstrate that other Southern-Slavic populations, namely Macedonians, Serbs, Bosnians, and northern Croats are genetically distinct from their northern linguistic relatives as well
    The differences exist due to the pre-Slavic peoples of the Balkans.

    Thus, the contribution of the Y chromosomes of peoples who settled in the region before the Slavic expansion to the genetic heritage of Southern Slavs is the most likely explanation for this phenomenon. On the other hand, our results indicate no significant genetic traces of pre-sixth-century inhabitants of present-day Slovenia in the Slovene Y chromosome genetic pool.
    There are apparently significant differences between Slavs and Baltic peoples.

    Although the existence of the Balto-Slavic linguistic community, or at least territorial contiguity of Proto-Baltic and Proto-Slavic in the past, is generally accepted (Schenker 1995), AMOVA revealed significant differences in Y-STR distribution between Slavic and Baltic populations (P < 0.005 for all pairwise comparisons), which is likely to result from the previously observed different Y-chromosomal haplogroup distribution (Rosser et al. 2000). The Baltic populations are characterised by the high incidence of the Y-chromosomal haplogroup N3 (47% among Lithuanians, 32% among Latvians) (Rosser et al. 2000; Zerjal et al. 2001). Its distribution pattern in Slavic populations indicates that Proto-Slavs did not carry this lineage at a substantial frequency, since it is relatively rare among Slavs and at high frequency was observed only in some Russian subpopulations (Malyarchuk et al. 2004).
    The authors conclude with:

    In conclusion, we have demonstrated that Y-STR haplotype distribution divides Slavs into two genetically distant groups: one encompassing all Western Slavs, Eastern Slavs, Slovenes and Western Croats, and the other involving all remaining Southern Slavs. Many northern Slavic populations are genetically indistinguishable in regard to the nine-locus Y-STR haplotype variation, and this homogeneity extends from the Alps to the upper Volga, and even as far as the Pacific Ocean (eastern Russia), regardless of linguistic, cultural and historical affiliations of the Slavic ethnicities. The example of Slovaks and Belarusians shows that this homogeneity is likely to be extended to other Y-chromosomal microsatellites as well. Results of the interpopulation Y-STR haplotype analysis exclude a significant contribution of ancient tribes inhabiting present-day Poland to the gene pool of Eastern and Southern Slavs, and suggest that the Slavic expansion started from present-day Ukraine, thus supporting the hypothesis that places the earliest known homeland of Slavs in the basin of the middle Dnieper. To our knowledge, this is the first report on the use of genetic markers in solving the question of the localisation of the Slavic homeland.
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    Last edited by Philosopher; 10-21-2014, 01:50 PM.

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    • spitfire
      Banned
      • Aug 2014
      • 868

      #77
      Originally posted by Philosopher View Post
      I think two points can be added to this thread:
      Greeks use "Slav" are racial epithet, a pejorative word, designed to enervate and shame us. The Greeks, who are good friends with the Serbs and the Russians, do not use the word Slav to describe them.
      Nope. Especially when it comes to the Serbs, the word Slav is used to describe them. No distiction. It is also used for Russians but I would agree that it is not used as often.
      In order to use it as a pejorative word you'll need to mock the word and speak of a sKlav(os) which means literally a slave.

      To understand this better, you need to look at the two words in ancient greek that mean "slave". Doulos (Δούλος) and Andrapodon (Ανδράποδον). They both mean slave but the latter has a negative sense. Sklavos is a medieval greek word that comes from Slav but it was not used to describe the latter only. This was closer to the concept of Doulos, which meant somebody working for his boss, there was no working class back then, you had to be a "slave".
      Today the word Slav(os) means slav and the word Sklav(os) means slave.
      Last edited by spitfire; 10-21-2014, 02:31 PM.

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      • Philosopher
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 1003

        #78
        Originally posted by spitfire View Post
        Nope. Especially when it comes to the Serbs, the word Slav is used to describe them. No distiction. It is also used for Russians but I would agree that it is not used as often.
        In order to use it as a pejorative word you'll need to mock the word and speak of a sKlav(os) which means literally a slave.
        Thank you for the correction Spitfire. Let me clarify and perhaps you can clarify. In English, we call Russians "Russian" and "Poles" "Poles". However, we also identify them as Slavs, speaking Slavic.

        Do you call Russians Slavs? Or do you refer to them in a similar way we use it in English?

        You see the problem is that Greeks (generally) do not call us "Macedonians", but any one of a number of names, including Vardar Slavs, Slav Macedonians, et al.

        So I was trying to distinguish how your countrymen treats Serbs from Macedonians.

        I feel my original comments were correct.

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        • spitfire
          Banned
          • Aug 2014
          • 868

          #79
          Originally posted by Philosopher View Post
          Thank you for the correction Spitfire. Let me clarify and perhaps you can clarify. In English, we call Russians "Russian" and "Poles" "Poles". However, we also identify them as Slavs, speaking Slavic.

          Do you call Russians Slavs? Or do you refer to them in a similar way we use it in English?

          You see the problem is that Greeks (generally) do not call us "Macedonians", but any one of a number of names, including Vardar Slavs, Slav Macedonians, et al.

          So I was trying to distinguish how your countrymen treats Serbs from Macedonians.

          I feel my original comments were correct.
          We use slav for all those people mentioned. But as I said for the Russians and the Poles the use is as in English. Now that you mentioned the Poles, this is even a better example than that of the Russians.
          In everyday speaking it's unlikely to hear of a Pole be described as a slav. But in everyday speaking there are lots of things that aren't mentioned. Or generilized. For instance, we speak about the Turks meaning the whole ottoman empire. And as we know the turks were a minority.
          Simple things like that.

          To speak of a Slav is not offending. I even brought this up with a serb one day during coffee time. I did mention that he is slav, and he didn't oppose it. Neither did I use it for offending him. And I don't see how he could be offended. Doesn't Slav mean something of glory in Slavic languages?
          Last edited by spitfire; 10-21-2014, 02:55 PM.

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          • Philosopher
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 1003

            #80
            To speak of a Slav is not offending. I even brought this up with a serb one day during coffee time. I did mention that he is slav, and he didn't oppose it. Neither did I use it for offending him. And I don't see how he could be offended. Doesn't Slav mean something of glory in Slavic languages?
            Slav is a collectivist title. It states nothing about an individual person or his individual ethnicity. The use of the word Slav implies a collective group. There is no collective group. Serbs are very different than Russians. However, if you call both of them Slavs, there ceases to be a difference. Moreover, it implies that these two ethnicities are the same people, which they are not.

            Unfortunately, there are many Slavic speaking people in the world who identify as a Slav. Macedonians, however, find the word “Slav” offensive.

            You may ask why?

            The answer consists of the following:

            Macedonians see themselves as an Eastern Mediterranean people, not Slavs, and who speak a Slavic language. This does not make us Slavs.

            There is no such thing as a Slav. So-called Slavic people are a very large collection of different ethnicities who speak a Slavic language. Southern Slavs, as the genetic study referenced earlier, are genetically very distant from northern Slavs.

            The word “Slav” denies Macedonians their unique Macedonian ethnicity. We are not Slavic speaking Macedonians. We are not Slav Macedonians.

            We are Macedonians.

            We resent when we are called Slavs.
            Last edited by Philosopher; 01-09-2015, 09:53 PM.

            Comment

            • Dejan
              Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 589

              #81
              No such thing as 'slavs' in an ethnic sense. If we are 'slavs', then so are the greeks.
              You want Macedonia? Come and take it from my blood!

              A prosperous, independent and free Macedonia for Macedonians will be the ultimate revenge to our enemies.

              Comment

              • Nikolaj
                Member
                • Aug 2014
                • 389

                #82
                Originally posted by Dejan View Post
                No such thing as 'slavs' in an ethnic sense. If we are 'slavs', then so are the greeks.
                Exactly. The way they apply the word is historically ignorant.

                Comment

                • Risto the Great
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 15658

                  #83
                  Has anyone ever met a Slav?
                  Risto the Great
                  MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                  "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                  Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

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                  • George S.
                    Senior Member
                    • Aug 2009
                    • 10116

                    #84
                    If you want to know that a slav is a slave
                    Which inturn is a macedonian.YEs I have met
                    Many a slav.
                    "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                    GOTSE DELCEV

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                    • Dejan
                      Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 589

                      #85
                      We Macedonians are basically arguing with people who wish to remain uneducated, no matter how much they think they can recite ancient history.
                      You want Macedonia? Come and take it from my blood!

                      A prosperous, independent and free Macedonia for Macedonians will be the ultimate revenge to our enemies.

                      Comment

                      • spitfire
                        Banned
                        • Aug 2014
                        • 868

                        #86
                        Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
                        Has anyone ever met a Slav?
                        I was about to ask what is a slav anyway?

                        Comment

                        • Philosopher
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 1003

                          #87
                          Originally posted by spitfire View Post
                          I was about to ask what is a slav anyway?
                          If you want to know what a Slav is, look to your fellow countrymen. Like it or not, the Slavic element in Greece is about the same as in Macedonia. In fact, the Slavic element in northern Greece is greater than in the Republic of Macedonia.

                          In the eyes of the world, we may be "Eastern Europeans", "Slavs", and other gibberish, but the science states we are Eastern Mediterraneans and the differences between us is very little.

                          For once, just once, I would like the world to acknowledge us as a Eastern Mediterranean people, and not as Slavs.

                          Frankly, I am tired of this absurd word "Slav" and its misuse and misapplication to Macedonians.

                          Comment

                          • Philosopher
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 1003

                            #88
                            Our results indicate that using the population-of-origin approach based on the AMOVA, as many as nine (P> 0.05) or ten (P> 0.01) populations can be traced back to the lands of present-day Ukraine, including Eastern-Slavic Russians and Belarusians, Western-Slavic Poles and Slovaks, and Southern-Slavic Slovenes and Croats.
                            Pg 7

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                            It should be noted that Macedonians are excluded from the populations that can be traced back to present-day Ukraine.

                            So if Macedonians are to be excluded from this distinguished group, how should the world see these people in relation to Macedonians?

                            A similar difference has been previously reported between Bulgarians and a few other Slavic populations (Roewer et al.2005), and our results demonstrate that other Southern-Slavic populations, namely Macedonians, Serbs, Bosnians, and northern Croats are genetically distinct from their northern linguistic relatives as well.
                            Pg 6

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                            So Macedonians are genetically distinct from these people, but they are linguistically related.

                            This makes sense.

                            Maybe someone should contact the Greek government with this twenty-first century information, and maybe we can end this name dispute once and for all.
                            Last edited by Philosopher; 11-19-2014, 09:46 AM.

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                            • George S.
                              Senior Member
                              • Aug 2009
                              • 10116

                              #89
                              Tarring people with the same brush is nothing new.They just realised that the macedonians are not really slavs.All along they have made out that they were slav.They have changed tack as the real discoveries show that Macedonians were the first on european soil and are basically indigenous to the land.Its all shocking news to the oppressors of the macedonian people they knew all along about the slav issue and have kept quiet about it for years.The people know who they really are.
                              "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                              GOTSE DELCEV

                              Comment

                              • spitfire
                                Banned
                                • Aug 2014
                                • 868

                                #90
                                Originally posted by Philosopher View Post
                                Maybe someone should contact the Greek government with this twenty-first century information, and maybe we can end this name dispute once and for all.
                                You'll end up with the proposal of FYROGDFTNLRM. This stands for Former Yugoslavian Republic Of Genetically Distinct From Their Northern Linguistic Relatives Macedonia.
                                Boring... .

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