church construction draws a protest

[Risto the Great]

http://www.setimes.com/cocoon/setimes/xhtml/en_GB/features/setimes/features/2013/09/04/feature-01

Representatives of the Macedonian Orthodox Church, the Islamic Community and Struga municipality met Saturday (August 31st) to resolve a tense dispute over the controversial construction of a church in the village of Oktisi.

A group of Oktisi Muslims -- witness estimates ranged from 50 people to several hundred -- blocked a procession of Christians who were to bless and begin work at the St. Nikola Orthodox Church last week. One woman was injured, but police prevented a larger confrontation.

Oktisi is a village of approximately 4,500 people -- half of them are temporarily employed abroad -- and more than 80 percent are Muslim.

"We have not reached a specific agreement, but expect to meet again next week," Bishop Metropolitan Timotej said.

Struga Mayor Zijadin Sela proposed temporarily halting construction as an interim measure.

"The interim measure will extend the September 30th deadline for building the church. It will provide room to calm passions, and the religious communities to sit down and reach an agreement. The interim measure is the best solution from a security standpoint," Sela said.

But Father Zoran Popovski of the Vevchani eparchy said that civil law must be respected or thousands of Christians will defend their rights in the next procession to lay the church's foundation.

"This is our property and we want to renew the small church there that has long been left to stand in ruins. We had secured all the required licenses and collected donations," Popovski told SETimes.

Popovski said the eparchy has documents showing it owns a parcel of 1,040 square metres in Oktisi, and officials decided to use 400 square metres of the land for the church.

"When we arrived, they told us they do not want to have a church near them. Until the imam called the faithful to protest, there was no indication anybody would dispute or prevent the church's construction," Popovski said.

Demonstrators were urged to protest during a prayer at the Oktisi mosque, with the call from the minaret for "all citizens of the village Oktisi our Muslim brothers to come to a peaceful protest against the construction of the church."

Kanye Canoski, 50, of Muslim from Oktisi, said the protest was driven by a property dispute.

"[The Macedonian Orthodox Church] wants to build a church in the middle of the village, which we used as a place for socialising, games and shared celebrations. The property was social. And in 1974 on that place was built a church that wasn't preserved. Fifty locals gathered in the name of justice so could be built a square and park for children and pensioners at this place. After all, it seems that building the church has a political background."

But Timotej said he believed the protesters are being influenced by Islamic extremists.

"I personally believe some third party is involved in this. The people here are manipulated by certain radical structures that are not characteristic of Islam in Macedonia," Timotej said.

Timotej said church authorities have taken on the responsibility to meet again and solve the problem through political dialogue in a democratic and dignified way.

Sasho Klekovski, former director of the Macedonian Centre for International Co-operation, said the situation is unique, based on what he called local rivalries.

"St. Gjorgjija monastery in Mala Recica was renewed by the local Muslims after being burned down in 2001. I hope Oktisi will find strength to overcome the old [local] rivalries, he said.

Not sure if we had an English version of this.

But it is disgraceful that Macedonians can't get this over the line and the ethnic Albanians are building numerous unauthorised mosques in stark contrast.

[makedonche]

http://www.setimes.com/cocoon/setime.../04/feature-01



Not sure if we had an English version of this.

But it is disgraceful that Macedonians can't get this over the line and the ethnic Albanians are building numerous unauthorised mosques in stark contrast.

RTG
Welcome to FYROMANIA ...have a nice day!
The other side of the sign reads.."You are Now Leaving Albania"

[George S.]

this wouldn't happen to anyonebut macedonians..its been coming for years.

[Big Bad Sven]

From the looks of things a lot of these muslims are torbeshi (by the sounds of their names). Also i have friends from Struga who think the torbeshi are lower then the shiptars.

Pretty sad if it is true - but i guess they have picked their 'side', so fuck them.

It is quite funny how the shiptars like to run crying to america about how macedonians abuse their 'human rights', yet when it comes to letting macedonians build one measly church they get out raged and try to stop it. Double standards.

It also goes to show how back wards islam is, especially fundamental islam. In places where muslims only make 20% of the population they can build mosques freely, however when the numbers are switched around like know they show their true faces.

Macedonians have failed at containing shiptar nationalism and racism, now a new monster has reared its ugly head - fanatical islam - and its slowly killing macedonia

[United MKD]

Oktisi is 90% torbeshi.

[Momce Makedonce]

From the looks of things a lot of these muslims are torbeshi (by the sounds of their names). Also i have friends from Struga who think the torbeshi are lower then the shiptars.

Pretty sad if it is true - but i guess they have picked their 'side', so fuck them.

It is quite funny how the shiptars like to run crying to america about how macedonians abuse their 'human rights', yet when it comes to letting macedonians build one measly church they get out raged and try to stop it. Double standards.

It also goes to show how back wards islam is, especially fundamental islam. In places where muslims only make 20% of the population they can build mosques freely, however when the numbers are switched around like know they show their true faces.

Macedonians have failed at containing shiptar nationalism and racism, now a new monster has reared its ugly head - fanatical islam - and its slowly killing macedonia

I am guessing "torbeshi" are Macedonian Muslims? What do their last names sound like?

[United MKD]

Ramadanoski, Selimoski etc bit different from a Stojanovski or Trajkovski etc.

[Gocka]

Torbeshi are Macedonians who converted to Islam during ottoman rule. They usually have last names ending in ski, but as United MKD said they have strange names, almost like Bosnian names but instead of ic they have ski, islamovic, islamovski etc

[Gocka]

Id like to share an interesting take and a story on the Albanians and torbeshi.

My wife's family is all from Struga, here mother is from the city and her father from a village next to the city. Her grandmother on her mothers side also lived in Struga, as did her great grandmother. We are talking almost a 100 years ago, and recently I spoke with my wife's grandmother and got an interesting glimpse into what the past looked like in Struga.

My wife's great grandmother who was actually a vlach was married to a Macedonian pope but unfortunately he died fairly young and left his wife alone with 3 kids. I dont even dare imagine what it would have been like almost 100 years ago to a single mother of 3 but what she told me was that they were VERY poor, so poor that her mother could barely feed them. Many of the neighbors were Albanians. She told me that Struga was pretty much always almost half Albanian and half Macedonian, back then it was more Macedonian but not by a lot. It ended up that it was their Albanian neighbors who helped feed and support them. One would bring them milk, the other bread they other vegetables, and that is how they made it by. One time the great grandmother got very sick and had to go to Skopje, she was penny-less when she got there, and it was an Albanian who took her to the hospital and watched her kids in the meantime.

So I asked, so what your saying is that the relations between Macedonians and Albanians was good back then? She said yes, there was never fighting never extremism like you see now, people just got along and even helped each other. She said that even when it came to religion both sides were respectful of each other. She remembers them as peaceful and quite people.

She then went on to say that she is shocked it what it has come to today, she cant believe that in such a short time that the relations could become so poor, for no apparent reason.

I asked her what she thinks could be the reason and she said that during communist times especially in the seventies and eighties, that Macedonians in power had become slightly aggressive toward the Albanians and that the Albanians in Serbia really began to have problems there and somehow that spread to us too. But she maintained that at that time what happened was a more distinct splitting of the cultures and everyday contact, she said from that time on, you saw both sides only associating with there own kind, still the relations were not heated or violent but increasingly more segregated, by choice of course not by force. She said the religious tensions are a much more resent development, more like the early 90's and on.

She actually came to tears, she said I dont understand how the same people who supported me and my brothers as children can today spit at me as I walk down the street. She said she has never seen anything like it, where people seem to have such short term memories and can only remember as far as yesterday.

People her age remember a completely different time, where people didn't hate each other for no reason and despite religious differences respect still prevailed.

Even she had to admit that today she also has trouble seeing them as the people who fed her and her family but more and more she sees them as a wild group of people who want only conflict if they dont get exactly what they want all the time.


My opinion is that ever since the conflicts in Serbia we have had a huge influx of Kosovo Albanians who were always a bit more antagonistic and extremist and once the line in the sand is drawn its hard to not pick a side. That is where we are at today. Its come to a point where you have to choose either them or us, and all that does is perpetuate the hatred and make conflict all the more likely.

Its a shame that we cant just sit down together like people and work things out. It looks like now they only way anything will work out is if more blood is spilled.

[Big Bad Sven]

Id like to share an interesting take and a story on the Albanians and torbeshi.

My wife's family is all from Struga, here mother is from the city and her father from a village next to the city. Her grandmother on her mothers side also lived in Struga, as did her great grandmother. We are talking almost a 100 years ago, and recently I spoke with my wife's grandmother and got an interesting glimpse into what the past looked like in Struga.

My wife's great grandmother who was actually a vlach was married to a Macedonian pope but unfortunately he died fairly young and left his wife alone with 3 kids. I dont even dare imagine what it would have been like almost 100 years ago to a single mother of 3 but what she told me was that they were VERY poor, so poor that her mother could barely feed them. Many of the neighbors were Albanians. She told me that Struga was pretty much always almost half Albanian and half Macedonian, back then it was more Macedonian but not by a lot. It ended up that it was their Albanian neighbors who helped feed and support them. One would bring them milk, the other bread they other vegetables, and that is how they made it by. One time the great grandmother got very sick and had to go to Skopje, she was penny-less when she got there, and it was an Albanian who took her to the hospital and watched her kids in the meantime.

So I asked, so what your saying is that the relations between Macedonians and Albanians was good back then? She said yes, there was never fighting never extremism like you see now, people just got along and even helped each other. She said that even when it came to religion both sides were respectful of each other. She remembers them as peaceful and quite people.

She then went on to say that she is shocked it what it has come to today, she cant believe that in such a short time that the relations could become so poor, for no apparent reason.

I asked her what she thinks could be the reason and she said that during communist times especially in the seventies and eighties, that Macedonians in power had become slightly aggressive toward the Albanians and that the Albanians in Serbia really began to have problems there and somehow that spread to us too. But she maintained that at that time what happened was a more distinct splitting of the cultures and everyday contact, she said from that time on, you saw both sides only associating with there own kind, still the relations were not heated or violent but increasingly more segregated, by choice of course not by force. She said the religious tensions are a much more resent development, more like the early 90's and on.

She actually came to tears, she said I dont understand how the same people who supported me and my brothers as children can today spit at me as I walk down the street. She said she has never seen anything like it, where people seem to have such short term memories and can only remember as far as yesterday.

People her age remember a completely different time, where people didn't hate each other for no reason and despite religious differences respect still prevailed.

Even she had to admit that today she also has trouble seeing them as the people who fed her and her family but more and more she sees them as a wild group of people who want only conflict if they dont get exactly what they want all the time.


My opinion is that ever since the conflicts in Serbia we have had a huge influx of Kosovo Albanians who were always a bit more antagonistic and extremist and once the line in the sand is drawn its hard to not pick a side. That is where we are at today. Its come to a point where you have to choose either them or us, and all that does is perpetuate the hatred and make conflict all the more likely.

Its a shame that we cant just sit down together like people and work things out. It looks like now they only way anything will work out is if more blood is spilled.

In the 70's and 80' I read that shiptars in tetovo and Skopje had protests and tried to start some shit but where defeated by the Yugoslavs and sent to jail.

My opinion is that there has always been a extreme shiptar element in places like Tetovo and North-western Macedonia, and this element has increased with the recent developments in Kosovo and their connection with the Macedonian shiptars.

Places like Struga, gostivar etc the shiptar population were rather good and friendly with Macedonians - however this has been strained due to the rise of shiptar racism and nationalism, and the recent element of Saudi brainwashing

[Momce Makedonce]

Torbeshi are Macedonians who converted to Islam during ottoman rule. They usually have last names ending in ski, but as United MKD said they have strange names, almost like Bosnian names but instead of ic they have ski, islamovic, islamovski etc

I see. Is it also true that most Bosnians were actually Christians before they converted under the Ottoman empire?

[Solid]

Bosnians were christians before the Othman Empire, bogomils or orthodox.