Your favourite non-Slavic European ethno-Cultural group?

[Thorvald]

Hmmm, didn't know about that, but it doesn't proof that Slavs brought the pipe to Spain, and its more clear that its originated from the ancient Celtic tribes though.

[Soldier of Macedon]

it doesn't proof that Slavs brought the pipe to Spain

Depends what sort of pipe, I am sure the Arabs brought many (smoking) pipes in Spain that they probably today enjoy in Amsterdam

Thorvald, if we are to assume that the Celts lived among the Slavs along the Danube during antiquity, then how can it be determined where it originates from? While the bag-pipe is used in many parts of the Balkans, it is only significant as a national instrument in Macedonia, Bulgaria and I think maybe Albania (but not sure about that).

Where is its use among the others? Why the intense use in Macedonia and Bulgaria but less farther north, where the Celts had lived?

[Soldier of Macedon]

Oh, by the way, if I could vote an equal for the poll above I would put the Baltic peoples also, because outside of the other Slavic-speaking people their language is closest to ours and derives from a common ancestor.


Thorvald, I read once that early opinions indicated that the Slavic, Baltic and Germanic branches of languages were of a common ancestor, do you agree with this? And if so, can you point me to some common words we all use that are not loanwords from one another? I must admit that Germanic history is something I have not delved into much unless it concerns the Slavic people north of the Danube, it is a very large and extensive culture which would take a long time to read through comprehensively. Nevertheless, it interests me very much. One of my Scottish friends did a search on his clan name and found it to be derived from Viking settlers in Scotland! It seems that at some point Vikings must have became overlords of certain regions in Scotland and passed on their names to the local Celtic inhabitants of their domains. You heard anything about this?

[Thorvald]

Depends what sort of pipe, I am sure the Arabs brought many (smoking) pipes in Spain that they probably today enjoy in Amsterdam

Oh, no, not these stereotyping about my country please.

Thorvald, if we are to assume that the Celts lived among the Slavs along the Danube during antiquity, then how can it be determined where it originates from?

That is a very good point. We maybe can only do assume about it. For me personly, it doesn't really matter if its Celtic or Slavic by origin.

While the bag-pipe is used in many parts of the Balkans, it is only significant as a national instrument in Macedonia, Bulgaria and I think maybe Albania (but not sure about that).

Then this is saying much about the origin then, doesn't it?

Where is its use among the others? Why the intense use in Macedonia and Bulgaria but less farther north, where the Celts had lived?

Good question. Maybe more attractive, more influenced?

[Soldier of Macedon]

Oh, no, not these stereotyping about my country please.

Relax mijn vriend, het was maar een grapje.

Good question. Maybe more attractive, more influenced?

Not sure, the next time I go for drinks with my Scottish friends I will have to pose this question and see if I can get an answer from them.

[Thorvald]

Oh, by the way, if I could vote an equal for the poll above I would put the Baltic peoples also, because outside of the other Slavic-speaking people their language is closest to ours and derives from a common ancestor.

Baltics are cool.

Thorvald, I read once that early opinions indicated that the Slavic, Baltic and Germanic branches of languages were of a common ancestor, do you agree with this?

Half agreed. There might be some truth about it, but I need more studying on this subject to make my opinion clear.

And if so, can you point me to some common words we all use that are not loanwords from one another?

I know that russian language has many borrowed Dutch and German words, but Iam not an expert on Slavic linquistics....

I must admit that Germanic history is something I have not delved into much

That is pitty; Our history is quite rich and diverse, and not all Germanic preservationists are imperialists or Slav haters, although there are some issues with Poles and Russians

unless it concerns the Slavic people north of the Danube,

How come?

it is a very large and extensive culture which would take a long time to read through comprehensively.

That is very true, and that is the exact reason why I joined Macedonian Truth forum, to learn more about Macedonia, and its a great pleasure being here and that main language is English

Nevertheless, it interests me very much.

Glad to hear that. We can only learn from one another

One of my Scottish friends did a search on his clan name and found it to be derived from Viking settlers in Scotland! It seems that at some point Vikings must have became overlords of certain regions in Scotland and passed on their names to the local Celtic inhabitants of their domains. You heard anything about this?

That is true. Scots aren't today not entirely Celtic. They are a mix of the Celts with Germanic blood from Vikings, Normans, and various others.

On our Germanic forum http://gpa.informe.com/forum/ we have various subjects about it. There are Scottish shauvenists who actually believe that modern-day Scots are as pure as their Celtic forefathers back in the Roman days, that is just crap.

To start with, the Orkney and Shetlands were dominated by Germanics far more then by Celtics:

The Northern Isles of Scotland - Orkney and Shetland - have a long-established Nordic identity. The islands were Norwegian colonies for more than 500 years, but ownership defaulted to the crown of Scotland in 1472 following non-payment of the marriage dowry of Margaret of Denmark and Norway, queen of James III of Scotland.

During World War II Shetland and Orkney were important bases for the Norwegian armed forces in exile. The Shetland Bus was based in Shetland and smuggled refugees, agents and supplies to and from Norway.

In later years financial relations, particularly in the maritime industries, have been important. Cultural and sporting exchanges are frequent. A genetic survey showed that 60% of the male population of Shetland and Orkney had Norwegian genes.

The traditional links to Scandinavia are reflected in the islands' flags, both of which are based around a Nordic cross.

http://gpa.informe.com/forum/germanic-origins-f38/shetland-and-orkney-s-nordic-roots-t1884.html

For 24 hours, on the last Tuesday of January, the town of Lerwick goes more than a little mad.

"There will be no postponement for weather". That's a defiant boast by Shetland's biggest fire festival, considering it's held in mid-winter on the same latitude as southern Greenland. But it's true: gales, sleet and snow have never yet stopped the Up Helly Aa guizers of Lerwick from burning their Viking galley - and then dancing the dawn away.

Amazing Blaze
Up Helly Aa is a lot more than a sub-arctic bonfire and booze-up. It's a superb spectacle, a celebration of Shetland history, and a triumphant demonstration of the islanders' skills and spirit. This northern Mardi Gras lasts just one day (and night). But it takes several thousand people 364 days to organise. Much of the preparation is in strictest secrecy. The biggest secret of all is what the head of the festival, the 'Guizer Jarl', will wear and which character from the Norse Sagas he'll represent.

The Guy's a Jarl!

Burning Galley
The Jarl will have been planning (and saving up for) the longest day of his life for 12 years or more, before he dons his raven-winged helmet, grabs axe and shield, and embarks on a 24-hour sleepless marathon.

On the evening of Up Helly Aa Day, over 800 heavily-disguised men (no women, thank you, we're vikings!) form ranks in the darkened streets. They shoulder stout fencing posts, topped with paraffin-soaked sacking.

On the stroke of 7.30pm, a signal rocket bursts over the Town Hall. The torches are lit, the band strikes up and the amazing, blazing procession begins, snaking half a mile astern of the Guizer Jarl, standing proudly at the helm of his doomed replica longship, or 'galley'.

It takes half an hour for the Jarl's squad of burly Vikings to drag him to the burning site, through a crowd of four or five thousand spectators.

Amazing blazing
The guizers circle the dragon ship in a slow-motion Catherine Wheel of fire. Another rocket explodes overhead. The Jarl leaves his ship, to a crescendo of cheers. A bugle call sounds, and then the torches are hurled into the galley.

As the inferno destroys four months' of painstaking work by the galley builders, the crowd sings 'The Norseman's Home' - a stirring requiem that can brings tear to the eyes of the hardiest Viking.

The Procession
Tears of mirth are more likely as the night rolls on and more than 40 squads of guizers visit a dozen halls in rotation. They're all invited guests at what are still private parties - apart from a couple of halls where tickets are on sale to the general public.

At every hall each squad performs its 'act', perhaps a skit on local events, a dance display in spectacular costume, or a topical send-up of a popular TV show or pop group.

Every guizer has a duty (as the 'Up Helly Aa Song' says) to dance with at least one of the ladies in the hall, before taking yet another dram, soaked up with vast quantities of mutton soup and bannocks.

The all-nighter to end all-nighters
It's a fast and furious night - and a lucky guizer who arrives home with a completely clear head before 8.30am the next morning which, not surprisingly, is a public holiday. Lerwick's a ghost town but by evening the hardier merrymakers are out dancing again, this time at the 'Guizer's Hop'.

The burning galley
That's not the end of it, for throughout the rest of the winter each gang of guizers will hold their own 'squad dances' for family and friends. By early autumn, there'll be the first meetings to arrange the next year's performance, while at the Galley Shed in St Sunniva Street the shipwrights, carpenters and their helpers will be starting work on the new galley, not forgetting 'the boys who made the torches'.

'From grand old Viking centuries, Up Helly Aa has come...' That's what the guizers sing but in fact the festival is only just over 100 years old in its present, highly organised form. In the 19th century Up Helly Aa was often riotous. Special constables were called in to curb trigger-happy drunks firing guns in the air - and dragging a blazing tar barrel through the streets, sometimes leaving it on the doorstep of the year's least popular worthy burgher. Today's festival is much better behaved.

Fire, feasting and fancy dress
The ingredients in the Up Helly Aa recipe go back 12 centuries and more - fire, feasting, fancy dress and, above all, fun. The torchlit procession and galley burning echo pagan Norse rituals at the cremation of great chieftains, and religious ceremonies to mark the Sun's return after the winter solstice.

Elaborate disguise was part of prehistoric fertility rites. Mediaeval Shetland guizers were called 'skeklers' and wore costumes of straw. The feasting and dancing continue saga traditions from the winter drinking halls of Viking warriors, while the satirical 'Bill' or proclamation, lampooning local worthies and fixed to the Lerwick Market Cross on Up Helly Aa morning, has precedents in the sharp wit of the Norse skalds.

If you should miss the Lerwick Up Helly Aa (or if it gives you the taste for more of the same), don't despair - there are another eight fire festivals in various districts of Shetland during the late winter.

And the country Up Hellies A' do NOT ban women from being torch-bearers and guizers. Don't mention that in Lerwick, though - where the men-only rule is a ticklish topic in these politically correct days.

The Up Helly Aa Exhibition in the Galley Shed, St Sunniva Street, Lerwick, welcomes visitors. Shetland Museum also has extensive photographic archives of the festival.

http://www.visitshetland.com/major-events/up-helly-aa

Hebrides, Known as Suđreyar or southern islands in Old Norse. Norse control of the Hebrides was formalised in 1098 when Edgar of Scotland recognised the claim of Magnus III of Norway. The Scottish acceptance of Magnus III as King of the Isles came after the Norwegian king had conquered the Orkney Islands, the Hebrides and the Isle of Man in a swift campaign earlier the same year, directed against the local Norwegian leaders of the various islands. By capturing the islands Magnus III subdued the Norsemen who had seized the islands centuries earlier and imposed a more direct royal control.

The Norwegian control of both the Inner and Outer Hebrides would see almost constant warfare until being ultimately resolved by the partitioning of the Western Isles in 1156. The Outer Hebrides would remain under the Kingdom of Mann and the Isles while the Inner Hebrides broke out under Somerled, the Norse-Celtic kinsman of both Lulach and the Manx royal house. Although the Inner Hebrides, from 1156 known as the Kingdom of the Hebrides, still nominally was under the sovereignty of Norway, the leaders were Scottish in language and culture rather than Norse.

After his victory of 1156 Somerled went on to two years later seize control over the Isle of Man itself and become the last King of the Isle of Man and the Isles to rule over all the islands the kingdom had once included. After Somerled's death in 1164 the rulers of Mann would no longer be in control of the Inner Hebrides.

The origin of many Clans were rather Germanic then Celtic.

A few examples:

Barclay

It is claimed that the Barclays in Scotland are descended from the Berkeleys who came over to England with William the Conquerer.

Bruce

The name originally written Brus or, Brusi, was found among the Vikings who settled in the Orkneys and Western Isles of Scotland.

Fraser

This clan, said to be of Norman origin, is first found in the South of Scotland in the 11th century.

Gunn

The territory of the Gunn clan was in Caithness and Sutherland, and the clan claim to be descended from Olave the Black, Norse King of Man and the Isles who died in 1237.

Leslie

In the 12th century Bartholomew, a Flemish noble obtained the Barony of Lesly and from him are descended the Earls of Rothes.

Menzies

The name is found in various forms; Menzies, Mengues, Mingies and Meyners. The name appears in the charters in the 12th and 13th century, and in 1249 Robert de Menyers was Lord High Chamberlain. His son, Alexander, possessed the lands of Durisdeer - an indication of Anglo-Norman origin of the family.

Montgomery

The Montgomerys are a lowland clan of Anglo-Norman origin. Roger de Montgomery, a Regent of Normandy, followed William the Conquerer to England where he was created an Earl. His grandson, Robert de Montgomery, came to Scotland in the Reign of David I.

Morrison

According to tradition the clan Morrison is said to be of Norse origin and descended from a family who were shipwrecked on the shores of the island of Lewis and saved by clinging to driftwood.

Ramsay

The Ramsays are an ancient family of Anglo-Norman origin. The first of the name recorded in Scotland was Simon de Ramsay, from England, who was granted lands in Lothian by David I.

Sinclair

The Sinclairs are of Norman origin, the first of the name being William de Sancto Claro, who received a grant of the Barony of Roslin, Midlothian, in the 12th century.

Stewart

The Stewarts are descended from Walter, the son of an Anglo-Norman baron who came to Scotland in the 12th century and who was appointed by David I steward of the Royal Household.

Source: The Clans and Tartans of Scotland, by Robert Bain.

[Delodephius]

Thorvald, do you know anything about the Slavic speaking settlers in Britain that came there in the same period as Angles, Jutes and Saxons? I keep finding some short reference to that but nothing decent. Also, I read that the city of Utrecht was founded by Baltic Slavs who were quite a sea power in the late first millennium.
I have a book called Slovenska Germanija (Slavic Germania) which is quite long. The author wrote about perhaps every Slavic tribe that existed and still exists in territory of modern day Germany. Aside from that book I believe that the Germanic tribes of Suebi and Vandals (Wends) were Slavic speaking.

[Thorvald]

Thorvald, do you know anything about the Slavic speaking settlers in Britain that came there in the same period as Angles, Jutes and Saxons? I keep finding some short reference to that but nothing decent. Also, I read that the city of Utrecht was founded by Baltic Slavs who were quite a sea power in the late first millennium.
I have a book called Slovenska Germanija (Slavic Germania) which is quite long. The author wrote about perhaps every Slavic tribe that existed and still exists in territory of modern day Germany. Aside from that book I believe that the Germanic tribes of Suebi and Vandals (Wends) were Slavic speaking.

I heard about that theory, and even further claiming that the Anglo-Saxons were Slavic, but that theory is unfounded without references, thus I can't take it seriously. Utrecht was founded by the Romans, that Slavs sopossedly founded it, is something I never heard about it before.

Do you have a link online about that book?

Iam a bit sceptical if you dont mind?

I know Germany has a lot of Slavic influences, but I think being realistic is requirred too. What matters is, who is the writer, what are his sources, and does he has a political goal by writing such a book?

[Delodephius]

Well the author of the book makes his opinion only in the beginning. The rest of the book (90%) is only listing every village, toponym and name of Slavic origin ever written down by Medieval authors.
That Angels and Jutes were Slavs I don't think either. Slavs lived just next to them on the western Baltic shore and I do think some of them did settle in Britain. I read that from James Bonwick's "Our nationalities" where writes that Slavs did settle in Britain and came there with the Saxon fleets, but that they unlike the other settlers were primarily agriculturalist and not conquerors. Somewhere else I read otherwise but I don't want to make any claims.
As for Utrecht, maybe it was it just served as a port for the raiding fleets of the Baltic Slavs.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Thanks for the information Thorvald, very interesting. In answer to your earlier question, the reason why I mostly looked into the Germanic peoples when it was in relation to the Slavs beyond the Danube is that they are the group that had contact with you guys most, so when I read up on Slavic history of course I would inevitably come to this point. With your visits here now though, perhaps we can share some more knowledge and information about these matters and come to more solid conclusions.

Barclay

It is claimed that the Barclays in Scotland are descended from the Berkeleys who came over to England with William the Conquerer.

Bruce

The name originally written Brus or, Brusi, was found among the Vikings who settled in the Orkneys and Western Isles of Scotland.

Fraser

This clan, said to be of Norman origin, is first found in the South of Scotland in the 11th century.

Gunn

The territory of the Gunn clan was in Caithness and Sutherland, and the clan claim to be descended from Olave the Black, Norse King of Man and the Isles who died in 1237.

Leslie

In the 12th century Bartholomew, a Flemish noble obtained the Barony of Lesly and from him are descended the Earls of Rothes.

Menzies

The name is found in various forms; Menzies, Mengues, Mingies and Meyners. The name appears in the charters in the 12th and 13th century, and in 1249 Robert de Menyers was Lord High Chamberlain. His son, Alexander, possessed the lands of Durisdeer - an indication of Anglo-Norman origin of the family.

Montgomery

The Montgomerys are a lowland clan of Anglo-Norman origin. Roger de Montgomery, a Regent of Normandy, followed William the Conquerer to England where he was created an Earl. His grandson, Robert de Montgomery, came to Scotland in the Reign of David I.

Morrison

According to tradition the clan Morrison is said to be of Norse origin and descended from a family who were shipwrecked on the shores of the island of Lewis and saved by clinging to driftwood.

Ramsay

The Ramsays are an ancient family of Anglo-Norman origin. The first of the name recorded in Scotland was Simon de Ramsay, from England, who was granted lands in Lothian by David I.

Sinclair

The Sinclairs are of Norman origin, the first of the name being William de Sancto Claro, who received a grant of the Barony of Roslin, Midlothian, in the 12th century.

Stewart

The Stewarts are descended from Walter, the son of an Anglo-Norman baron who came to Scotland in the 12th century and who was appointed by David I steward of the Royal Household.

Source: The Clans and Tartans of Scotland, by Robert Bain.

Very interesting. Let me ask you, if we find people carrying such surnames today, is it safe to assume that they Scots rather than Norweigans? Or do some Nordic people still carry such names in the same form as the Scots?

How close is modern German to the 6th (?) century Anglo-Saxon and beowulf language?

Also, what is your opinion on the people of pre-Celtic Britain, inhabitants, stone henge, etc?

[Soldier of Macedon]

I know Germany has a lot of Slavic influences, but I think being realistic is requirred too.

What is your opinion on why there are so many Slavic influences in Germany? Is it because of intermixing as neighbours or Germanic settlements in formerly Slavic lands?

What matters is, who is the writer, what are his sources, and does he has a political goal by writing such a book?

The first doesn't count, I couldn't care less if it was written by a 8 or 80 year old, if it is comprehensive, logical and based on facts, it is good enough, the person need not have a piece of paper from a university as long as the above critera is met. The second counts, but the third only counts if the writer allows their political goals to form bias and unrealistic conclusions.

[Thorvald]

What is your opinion on why there are so many Slavic influences in Germany? Is it because of intermixing as neighbours or Germanic settlements in formerly Slavic lands?

Mostly yes, but it isn't formerly Slavic lands, as Germanic tribes populated these lands first

[Thorvald]

Thanks for the information Thorvald, very interesting.

Your welcome

With your visits here now though, perhaps we can share some more knowledge and information about these matters and come to more solid conclusions.

Iam all for that

Very interesting. Let me ask you, if we find people carrying such surnames today, is it safe to assume that they Scots rather than Norweigans?

I dont think its correct to consider Scots with Germanic originated names as Norse, because what matters foremost is to which culture and ethnic group these people consider themselves. Many Germans have surnames with a Slavic origin, yet they are German in every possible meaning of the word. In Netherlands you find many native Dutch with French surnames - descendents of expelled Huguenots in the 17th century, but they aren't French anymore. They intermarried and assimilated.

How close is modern German to the 6th (?) century Anglo-Saxon and beowulf language?

I doubt that modern-day Germans can easily understand 6th century Anglo-Saxon. However, Frisians, an ethnic Germanic minority in Netherlands and Northern Germany, are linquistically more related to old-English. I can proof it, but need to find the links first. I shall add them as soon as possible.

Also, what is your opinion on the people of pre-Celtic Britain, inhabitants, stone henge, etc?

I have great respect for them, and although I consider myself as a Germanic preservationist, I support a revival of ancient Celtic traditions and heritage, not just in Ireland and Scotland, but aswell in regions of England were Celtic is on decline, like in Wales, Isle of Man and Cornwall.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Mostly yes, but it isn't formerly Slavic lands, as Germanic tribes populated these lands first

Ok, but how do you explain the lack of Germanic placenames in Slavic areas when compared to the opposite? Also, where do you believe the Germanic living expanse was situation during the 1st century ad? Where do you think the Germanic tribes originated from?

I have great respect for them, and although I consider myself as a Germanic preservationist, I support a revival of ancient Celtic traditions and heritage, not just in Ireland and Scotland, but aswell in regions of England were Celtic is on decline, like in Wales, Isle of Man and Cornwall.

As would I. What I was leading to was whether or not you think that Britain was Celtic to begin with or had some other people living there prior to that time?

[Delodephius]

Here is an interesting quote from Matti Klinge's "The Baltic World" (I translated this from Serbian since I don't have this quote in English):
"Contrary to previous belief, the magnificent painted stones that were preserved in Gotland apparently do not depict the mytho-historical world made eternal in the Norwegian and Icelandic sagas and runes. It may sound strange, but they actually represent scenes from the Homeric epos."