Good news every one, Djokavic won!!!!

[Gocka]

This is a very fundamental statement Gocka. "Rallying" behind the ventilator is really "rallying" behind treason, betrayal, oppression and a slave mentality. Macedonians already "rally" around the ventilator and look at the result. Its devastating. The ventilator is not just a flag, it represents a mindset - capitulation and oppression. It represents moral and intellectual slavery.

Macedonian politicians have tried to create 'national pride' through the use of the ventilator for nearly 2 decades. It doesn't work and it can't work because to 'rally' behind something means that you have to accept and believe in it. How can you obtain 'national pride' through the acceptance of slavery and oppression? Its an oxymoron. Its a complete contradiction and I don't think you've really thought it through - and least I hope you haven't.

Tom,

You are right maybe I have not thought this through completely. It is not that I don't agree it is that I have gotten to the point where I have become so desperate to see something anything out of Macedonians that it may cloud my judgment. I still think that national pride can grow with he ventilator temporarily present but at the same time as you say the ventilator its self is the exact opposite of national pride, so then maybe it is absolutely mandatory to change the name and flag back first before people can feel national pride. I'd say it's almost a case of the chicken and the egg. Do you need to change the flag back so that people become prideful or do they need to become prideful first in order to call for the flag to change. This was the point of view that I was commenting from. It was never a question of do you change the flag, rather what needs to happen first. I am still undecided about what needs to happen first and I don't think its a 100% clear either because our country is in a pretty unique situation, I don't think you can look through the history books and find an exact case like ours, at least I don't know of one.

[Risto the Great]

I don't think you can look through the history books and find an exact case like ours, at least I don't know of one.

Large masses of people constituting a nation capitulating? Yes. Many cases. They are only confined to history usually though.

[Gocka]

Large masses of people constituting a nation capitulating? Yes. Many cases. They are only confined to history usually though.

Yes you could find such cases but can you find one where the capitulates identity was also in question compiled with a terrorist minded minority and 4 neighbors who want its destruction since its creation? I doubt it. We will go down in history as the most battered ethnicity to have walked the earth. That's if they don't manage to wipe us from the history books first.

[Vangelovski]

Tom,

You are right maybe I have not thought this through completely. It is not that I don't agree it is that I have gotten to the point where I have become so desperate to see something anything out of Macedonians that it may cloud my judgment. I still think that national pride can grow with he ventilator temporarily present but at the same time as you say the ventilator its self is the exact opposite of national pride, so then maybe it is absolutely mandatory to change the name and flag back first before people can feel national pride. I'd say it's almost a case of the chicken and the egg. Do you need to change the flag back so that people become prideful or do they need to become prideful first in order to call for the flag to change. This was the point of view that I was commenting from. It was never a question of do you change the flag, rather what needs to happen first. I am still undecided about what needs to happen first and I don't think its a 100% clear either because our country is in a pretty unique situation, I don't think you can look through the history books and find an exact case like ours, at least I don't know of one.

Gocka, I don't think you are looking at the substantive issues. The ventilator and FYROM are merely symptoms of the problem. The real problem is that the vast majority of Macedonians suffer from a slave mentality - essentially that's the inability to understand that they hold inalienable rights and responsibilities (both individually and collectively) and the inability to understand why this is important. As such, they not only allow their own rights to be trampled, but attempt to convince others to do the same - many times for percieved petty benefits.

Macedonians will never assert and exercise their rights (for example, choose their own flag) until they overcome their own individual slave mentalities. This is not something that happens on mass, its something that each individual needs to realise for themselves. Until this happens, Macedonians will continue to capitulate until they have nothing left to capitulate over.

In essence, national pride (a feeling) does not develop because one flag or another is being waved around and is not as important as the moral and intellectual awakening that is required. Once people's hearts and minds are in the right place the rest is relatively easy.

[Vangelovski]

Yes you could find such cases but can you find one where the capitulates identity was also in question compiled with a terrorist minded minority and 4 neighbors who want its destruction since its creation? I doubt it. We will go down in history as the most battered ethnicity to have walked the earth. That's if they don't manage to wipe us from the history books first.

Macedonians are nowhere near as battered as some other peoples who have never even considered capitulation in any form, let alone their most fundamental rights. I can think of many contemporary examples. The point is that we should not excuse what is going on with our people.

[Gocka]

Gocka, I don't think you are looking at the substantive issues. The ventilator and FYROM are merely symptoms of the problem. The real problem is that the vast majority of Macedonians suffer from a slave mentality - essentially that's the inability to understand that they hold inalienable rights and responsibilities (both individually and collectively) and the inability to understand why this is important. As such, they not only allow their own rights to be trampled, but attempt to convince others to do the same - many times for percieved petty benefits.

Macedonians will never assert and exercise their rights (for example, choose their own flag) until they overcome their own individual slave mentalities. This is not something that happens on mass, its something that each individual needs to realise for themselves. Until this happens, Macedonians will continue to capitulate until they have nothing left to capitulate over.

In essence, national pride (a feeling) does not develop because one flag or another is being waved around and is not as important as the moral and intellectual awakening that is required. Once people's hearts and minds are in the right place the rest is relatively easy.

I have said many times already on this forum that the slave mentality drives everything but unlike you I am somewhat skeptical that you can change that or that people in mass will ever get over that mentality. You see it in every country not just our tiny spec. Just today a girl at work commented about the freedom tower in NYC, (it replaced the twin towers that went down on 9/11) she said and I quote exactly "they go and knock down the towers and what do we do we go and build them again even bigger. We are just asking for them to come and knock them down again" This is a fully fledged American that made that comment and another co worker agreed.

If Americans can feel like slaves while enslaving the world then I think there is little hope for Macedonia. If you sit around and wait for the majority or even a large portion of Macedonians to shed their slave mentality then Macedonia will be long gone by the time that happens if ever.

National pride is a way of getting people to do the right things for the wrong reasons. Take Greece for an example, you have a bunch of vlachs, albanians, turks, and Macedonians who are all in love with Greece and would do anything for the state. The average greek is 10x more patriotic than the average Macedonian that is a fact. How did they accomplish this? It was not by enlightening the whole bunch because it's obvious that they are the most unenlightened bunch in the world and it was all by force either. Greeks live, love ,and feel greek even though the greek ethnicity is as plastic as my keyboard, and in the end that's what matters.

Macedonians need to live love and feel Macedonian before they can even remotely give a crap about any internal or external issue. Slave mentality is the disease I'll admit that but you can't cure it so you need to find another way to achieve the ultimate goal which is people doing the right things, rejecting the ventilator, standing up to the albanians, standing up to greece. Do you think greeks would allow albanians to do what they do in ROM? It's not because that they are over their slave mentality, its because they love their nation so much and would not let others harm it (WHICH IS WHY WE HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THEM). They see us as a threat to their nation, they don't know all the facts and they don't care. Just to prove that greeks also suffer from a slave mentality but don't have the same problems we do. Look at their financial crisis, they are getting sucked dry by the Germans and the ECB and they are still not doing anything, most of them still accept the EU and the EURO, I will stand by my thoughts that national pride and slave mentality don't have to be linked and that the latter is a more realistic target.

I've seen and lived with enough stupid people to know you can't change them and the best you can hope for is getting them to do what is needed no matter the method.


I think we have slightly different views on how the ultimate goal can be achieve. I believe we have the same goal but different paths.

Macedonians are nowhere near as battered as some other peoples who have never even considered capitulation in any form, let alone their most fundamental rights. I can think of many contemporary examples. The point is that we should not excuse what is going on with our people.

It's not over yet, I think even worse times are ahead. Wait until the neo ottoman albanian empire of Macedonia. Can you give me a contemporary example? You got my curiosity going.

[Vangelovski]

Gocka,

Greece is probably one of the worst examples you could have given and does not lend any credibility to your proposal. If Greece is an example of the type of society you are willing to settle for, then I'm afraid we differ in both strategy and end goal. There is more to a nation than just patriotism. If that was not the case, then Greece would have been a great place - but its the complete opposite. There are many other factors such as law and order, responsibility, work ethic etc. Ultimately these are all determined by the sum mentality of each and every individual.

Macedonians simply feeling patriotic does nothing without any substance (moral and intellectual). The vast majority of Macedonians "feel" patriotic, but they don't have the moral or intellectual foundation to make it meaningful. Many Macedonians feel they are true patriots when they wave the ventilator and chant "Grujo" while he walks around with a "FYR Macedonia" badge, but this is completely worthless because they just accept whatever compromise he proposes.

At the end of the day, not everyone needs to 'get it' (even though they are capable of getting it), but a critical mass does. You're cowokers may be stupid (I'm sure they voted for Obama too ), but there are many stereotypically "stupid" people in the deep south that many East/West coast "intellectuals" mock as "red necks" and while they may even be semi-illiterate, they are in fact much more enlightened and have a much deeper moral and intellectual foundation about their individual worth and their inalienable rights and responsibilities than those pseudo "intellectuals" ever will or hope to be or have. One doesn't need to be a genuis to work out that they have rights (and responsibilities) and that they can and should exercise them.

I don't propose we do nothing by sitting around and waiting. I propose that we attempt to 'awaken' as many as possible, but am realistic about how difficult and time consuming it can be. Delcev tried to do it over 100 years ago. We're still at it today. In fact, we may even have gone backwards because of people like Gligorov and Trajkovski who convinced the majority that they 'had' to accept the IA and FA and ventilator and FYROM and....

As for other peoples who have been battered much more than the Macedonians, I'll give the example of the Jews. Six million of them were murdered in the holocaust alone, four times their neighbours actually invaded them so that they could 'drive them into the sea' (on three occasions the Israeli's had no assistance from the outside world and once fought in opposition to the US), they've been blockaded and unrecognised (their right to even exist is not recognised by most neighbouring countries, not just their name) and not even once have they considered capitulation on anything.

[Gocka]

Tom,
Let me start off by saying that I enjoy the debate it’s nice to discuss these issues openly and honestly with someone who actually cares, there are not too many people in the New Jersey, USA area that care about Macedonia or its problems.
Let me address Greece first. I was not using Greece as an example of a country that we should strive to be, I was merely giving a good example of how nationalism can accomplish certain goals without having an enlightened core. The Albanians are another good example of the same thing. They use blind nationalism to accomplish their goals, now their goals work in opposite of ours but you cannot deny that both Greeks and Albanians were and are able to accomplish their goals through nationalism while being as dense as rocks.
Greece is not the type of society I strive to emulate and I did not say that nor infer it. I will still say our goal is the same that would be a free safe and conscious Macedonia who will be prosperous and unified under our flag and our name. That is what I strive for and I believe you as well. Of course there is more to a nation then nationalism, I think you are taking my words and using them universally in every aspect when I meant them in very specific terms. I agree that morality, work ethic, and unity are all just as important as nationalism with morality coming even before it. I have also always said that the sum of the mentality and will of every citizen make up a nation but I was really trying to explain something a little different.
I would argue with your assertion that “most” Macedonians feel patriotic, I think that is not true and is not the reality in ROM or in the USA Diaspora. I think most Macedonians don’t care about Macedonia or even the ventilator. That is why I said I’d rather them rally behind the ventilator then nothing. From what I have seen and witnessed the majority in ROM couldn’t care less if we were called north Zimbabwe if it meant they could get an easy job with good pay or run away to some western country to get the same thing. I think the Diaspora in Australia is somewhat more patriotic in pockets very patriotic and that may cloud your judgment about what most Macedonians think. I have lived in Macedonia for long periods and am quite confident in my assertions.
I would also say you have misjudged the American south as well. I have lived in the USA almost my whole life and have lived and worked in the south they are not enlightened my friend. I think anyone on this forum who lives in the USA will back that up. The south for a large part runs on blind patriotism and racism much like Greece. The average southerner is almost illiterate and on top of that can’t even tell you what it is he is for or against and if he does racist undertones will show through. They are blind racists and want nothing more than to rid the USA of what they see as threats and everything they perceive as a threat is anything foreign, communism is foreign, immigrant, socialism, universal healthcare, blacks, Asians, Arabs. Trust me they are not enlightened in fact they are some of the most backwards people in the industrialized world. The liberals now they are a whole other mess, quasi educated but know nothing, let’s all just be friends, well that’s not that bad if you just look at it like this, entitled brats who don’t want to work. Most Americans don’t know their rights and do not exercise them. When is the last time you have seen national discontent in the USA, mass protests? The USA is almost as bad as any other country if you take away the money.
My life experiences have led me to believe that it is much easier to mislead someone than to open their eyes. Enlightening someone involves opening their eyes to the truth, this is almost impossible, it is much easier to mislead them hence the situation we are in now. People in power have learned that telling the truth is useless because people never accept it, but the lies for whatever reason they accept.
I know you are active and you don’t just sit and wait but I don’t think your strategy of one person at a time will work because for every 1 you convert 10 have just been lost. The rate of people giving up or becoming unfixable is much higher than the rate at which you can enlighten them.
Finally your example of the Jews/Israelis. I had a feeling that might be your example as it is one of the most talked about and most known but I was hoping you could give me something more like us and I would ever argue that the example you gave is not so cut and dry. First Jew and Israeli are not the same, Israelis are Jews but not all Jews are Israeli. Most of the Jews killed were ethnic Russians, poles, Ukrainians, etc. You cannot use them as an example because it’s a religion not an ethnicity. Yes during WW2 they were targeted as a collective group but they were not a collective group. Jews in Poland had nothing to do with Jews in Macedonia or France. I don’t think Jews are comparable nor is the holocaust a good comparison and per capita the Serbs had the most casualties in Europe I believe. Six million Jews (an inflated number anyway) is still how much out of how many? Then there is Israel. Another bad example because they strength of their lobby and moneyed interests around the world is so incomparable to Macedonia it’s like comparing a stone on the ground to mars. Israelis don’t suffer, yes all their neighbors hate them and want their destruction but unlike Macedonia Israel has the US army at its beckon call, and has enough artillery and army to wage a war against almost anyone, and let’s not forget that they have nuclear weapons to boot. Also Israel is a huge perpetrator of rights not only of Muslims but of its own people. Media censorship in Israel is almost as bad as in Stalinist Russia. If you chastised my example of Greece then your Example of Israel is just as bad. But I do understand what you were trying to say with your example.
Let me try to explain my thinking and why I said what I said.
I see Macedonia today right now as teetering on the brink of existence. It’s all calm now but we all know an ethnic war can break out overnight if it is wanted. You references Delcev, well I think Delcev was a realist and knew he could not convince most Macedonians, when he spoke officially he said one thing but behind closed doors and between comrades he knew Macedonians for the large part were incapable of change. That didn’t mean you shouldn’t try but he also knew that if you were to way for a large enough group to become enlightened you wait another 500 years. He just wanted to get enough people on the right side so that he could cause enough of a rumble to embolden the majority to act on patriotism not enlightenment, and also to get enough international attention to get intervention.
Back to what I think is most relevant today. I see the biggest threat today as the Albanians. They are a small tribe but a blood thirsty one who has no morals or respect for human life. Right away we are at a disadvantage to them because they are super nationalist and savagely which we are not. I think we will become Kosovo one day if Macedonians don’t take a stance sooner rather than later. Put the flag and the name and the identity and Greece and the EU and the UN and all that aside for just one second and just look at Macedonia. Tom we have Osama bin laden as the commander of our army. Do you know what would happen in the USA if something even remotely similar were to happen? What if a Turkish general who killed Greeks was head of Greece’s army, or an UCK commander head of Serbia’s army? They would burn the country to the ground just to hang those responsible. Open your eyes and see that there is something very wrong that our parliament is not in ashes and that the whole government is not hanging in the center of Skopje along with the terrorists. In 99% of countries such an act as treacherous as the one to appoint a former murderer of your people as head of your people’s army would result in shear anarchy. Blind patriotism alone would be more than enough to end that saga quickly.
So Tom, my proposal to you is simple. The current state of affairs is not one size fits all. Your ideology is not wrong, I agree 10000% with your ideology as it is also mine but it will be too little too late if something HUGE doesn’t change very fast. We need blind patriotism right now today or else the future will be lost very soon. I know and admit it’s like playing with fire or signing a contract with the devil but sometimes it has to be done. Blind patriotism may have lasting effects but the current situation is not any better, I’d say even worse. Every animal has its place under the sun, ultra nationalist are an animal that is needed from time to time to accomplish certain goals.
I will play out a short scenario for you of what I would like to happen right now.
I would like a small sect of ultra nationalists in ROM to absolutely run amok, and even assassinate the “minister” if possible. I want people in ROM to see that if you see something so treacherous that even the ultimate punishment is acceptable thus assenting that treachery is unacceptable. I think that such a dramatic and brute showing will open people’s eyes that you can do something and if your government is selling you out then grab your pitchfork and your noose and head to the capital. Macedonians need to see that if the desire is there something can change very quickly. That is where ultra nationalist are useful, quick shock and awe. Macedonians think politicians are like gods and that they are untouchable and invincible, that is what needs to be debunked very swiftly. One enlightened soul at a time will not accomplish that and pretty soon a terrorist will be president too.
Macedonians need blind patriotism to rid it of some very corrupt and some very nasty people. After the slate is clean, then can they begin to appreciate freedom.
If something were to “happen” to the terrorist I think people would become emboldened and not want nor allow another one to take his place. If more terrorists are allowed to run our country people will only become more disheartened and will want to give up even more. It’s been proven that Macedonians have no breaking point and they will go as low as you push them.
These are my views and I hope you will consider at least some of them like I have considered all of yours.

[Macedonian_Nationalist]

Not sure why you'd even support Tennis. Completely irrelevant sport anyway

[Risto the Great]

Not sure why you'd even support Tennis. Completely irrelevant sport anyway

Irrelevant to what?

[makedonche]

Not sure why you'd even support Tennis. Completely irrelevant sport anyway

Good point.....Aussie rules is the way to go!

[Vangelovski]

Gocka, I enjoy discussing these issues because I see them as key to what is happening with the Macedonian people. Please don’t misread my comments as aggressive or disparaging. I absolutely do not intend them as such. I just have a direct style of writing and usually dispense with pleasantries J

Let me address Greece first. I was not using Greece as an example of a country that we should strive to be, I was merely giving a good example of how nationalism can accomplish certain goals without having an enlightened core.

If there is no ‘enlightened core’, then who is driving their agendas? Of course there is an ‘enlightened core’ (at the very least), otherwise they would be bouncing around aimlessly like Macedonians.

The Albanians are another good example of the same thing. They use blind nationalism to accomplish their goals, now their goals work in opposite of ours but you cannot deny that both Greeks and Albanians were and are able to accomplish their goals through nationalism while being as dense as rocks.

I think you underestimate the ‘enlightenment’ of the Albanians and the Greeks. They know exactly what inalienable rights are (though they tend to make up extra’s) and have had these debates (and settled them) over a century ago. Macedonians are yet to be convinced that inalienable rights exist, let alone be convinced to exercise them. I have only ever come across a handful of Macedonians that can name the most fundamental inalienable rights. They usually come up with periphery rights or corollary rights which are debatable at best.

Greece is not the type of society I strive to emulate and I did not say that nor infer it.

That’s good.

I would argue with your assertion that “most” Macedonians feel patriotic, I think that is not true and is not the reality in ROM or in the USA Diaspora. I think most Macedonians don’t care about Macedonia or even the ventilator. That is why I said I’d rather them rally behind the ventilator then nothing. From what I have seen and witnessed the majority in ROM couldn’t care less if we were called north Zimbabwe if it meant they could get an easy job with good pay or run away to some western country to get the same thing. I think the Diaspora in Australia is somewhat more patriotic in pockets very patriotic and that may cloud your judgment about what most Macedonians think. I have lived in Macedonia for long periods and am quite confident in my assertions.

There is a difference between “feeling” patriotic and actually being a patriot. I still contend that most (not all) Macedonians “feel” patriotic in the sense that they get a nice warm and fuzzy feeling when they hear Biser Balkanski, wave the ventilator at a football match or meet Gruevski at some event. Most (not all) Macedonians still “feel” a sense of betrayal at Albanian extremism being rewarded and Macedonians being oppressed within their own country. But “feeling” patriotism does not necessarily translate into genuine principled patriotism and is thus useless and false for the most part.

I would also say you have misjudged the American south as well. I have lived in the USA almost my whole life and have lived and worked in the south they are not enlightened my friend. I think anyone on this forum who lives in the USA will back that up. The south for a large part runs on blind patriotism and racism much like Greece. The average southerner is almost illiterate and on top of that can’t even tell you what it is he is for or against and if he does racist undertones will show through. They are blind racists and want nothing more than to rid the USA of what they see as threats and everything they perceive as a threat is anything foreign, communism is foreign, immigrant, socialism, universal healthcare, blacks, Asians, Arabs. Trust me they are not enlightened in fact they are some of the most backwards people in the industrialized world.

Gocka, I should not have to lecture you on the South, but I feel that you have not really thought that deeply about it. Whether many Southerners are racist or not is irrelevant to the issue at hand. So is their patriotism in this context. I was commenting on their understanding of their inalienable rights and responsibilities in comparison to the progressives who mock them AND that just because someone may not have as much intellectual capacity as others, this does not prevent them from understanding fundamental truths. Some of the things you mention that they oppose are a question for another topic, but nevertheless, opposition to them is built on a solid foundation of their rights and responsibilities – such as opposition to communism, socialism and universal healthcare. These things are not opposed because they are “foreign”, they are opposed because they are totalitarian, undermining individual freedom, inalienable rights, personal responsibility and democratic governance.

The liberals now they are a whole other mess, quasi educated but know nothing, let’s all just be friends, well that’s not that bad if you just look at it like this, entitled brats who don’t want to work. Most Americans don’t know their rights and do not exercise them. When is the last time you have seen national discontent in the USA, mass protests? The USA is almost as bad as any other country if you take away the money.

Mass protests are not the only way to voice concern and are probably the least effective, especially with all the other available options in the US. Do you really believe that the US is ‘almost as bad as any other country’? If you do, you have obviously not travelled much and I doubt you have lived in Macedonia or done anything in Macedonia of any substance. The key difference between the US (and other western countries) is that while not perfect, they maintain the rule of law, democratic governance and a free market. If you are going to compare this to Africa, Asia and South America and the massive failures they have in their domestic systems, and conclude that the US (and the west) are as bad, then I have to question your sincerity and/or ability to critically analyse their political/economic/social systems.

My life experiences have led me to believe that it is much easier to mislead someone than to open their eyes. Enlightening someone involves opening their eyes to the truth, this is almost impossible, it is much easier to mislead them hence the situation we are in now.

That’s right, but if people aren’t taught to use their brains, then they’ll blow with the wind and fall for anything. While you might be able to mislead them for a while, someone else will inevitably turn them again. This is not the answer. Only an enlightened people can credibly protect their interests and their rights.

I know you are active and you don’t just sit and wait but I don’t think your strategy of one person at a time will work because for every 1 you convert 10 have just been lost. The rate of people giving up or becoming unfixable is much higher than the rate at which you can enlighten them.

Most Macedonians suffer from a desire not to think, but once they start using their brains it’s hard to go back without a lobotomy. But I’m interested in where you got these figures from?

Finally your example of the Jews/Israelis. I had a feeling that might be your example as it is one of the most talked about and most known but I was hoping you could give me something more like us and I would ever argue that the example you gave is not so cut and dry. First Jew and Israeli are not the same, Israelis are Jews but not all Jews are Israeli. Most of the Jews killed were ethnic Russians, poles, Ukrainians, etc. You cannot use them as an example because it’s a religion not an ethnicity. Yes during WW2 they were targeted as a collective group but they were not a collective group. Jews in Poland had nothing to do with Jews in Macedonia or France. I don’t think Jews are comparable nor is the holocaust a good comparison and per capita the Serbs had the most casualties in Europe I believe. Six million Jews (an inflated number anyway) is still how much out of how many? Then there is Israel. Another bad example because they strength of their lobby and moneyed interests around the world is so incomparable to Macedonia it’s like comparing a stone on the ground to mars. Israelis don’t suffer, yes all their neighbors hate them and want their destruction but unlike Macedonia Israel has the US army at its beckon call, and has enough artillery and army to wage a war against almost anyone, and let’s not forget that they have nuclear weapons to boot. Also Israel is a huge perpetrator of rights not only of Muslims but of its own people. Media censorship in Israel is almost as bad as in Stalinist Russia. If you chastised my example of Greece then your Example of Israel is just as bad. But I do understand what you were trying to say with your example.

Gocka, your understanding of the Jews and their history is substandard, based on myth (racist ones at that) and common misconception. Further, your comments are irrelevant to the issue at hand. The issue at hand is that you stated that the Macedonians are among the most battered people in the world. My point is that they are not. The Jews have been far more battered. Macedonians have not experienced anything close to what the Jews (and others) have experienced. It’s a fact of life, just deal with it – no need to be the biggest victim.

I see Macedonia today right now as teetering on the brink of existence. It’s all calm now but we all know an ethnic war can break out overnight if it is wanted. You references Delcev, well I think Delcev was a realist and knew he could not convince most Macedonians, when he spoke officially he said one thing but behind closed doors and between comrades he knew Macedonians for the large part were incapable of change. That didn’t mean you shouldn’t try but he also knew that if you were to way for a large enough group to become enlightened you wait another 500 years. He just wanted to get enough people on the right side so that he could cause enough of a rumble to embolden the majority to act on patriotism not enlightenment, and also to get enough international attention to get intervention.

I think you’ve misread Delcev and his activities, by a long shot, but that’s another discussion.

Back to what I think is most relevant today. I see the biggest threat today as the Albanians. They are a small tribe but a blood thirsty one who has no morals or respect for human life. Right away we are at a disadvantage to them because they are super nationalist and savagely which we are not. I think we will become Kosovo one day if Macedonians don’t take a stance sooner rather than later. Put the flag and the name and the identity and Greece and the EU and the UN and all that aside for just one second and just look at Macedonia. Tom we have Osama bin laden as the commander of our army. Do you know what would happen in the USA if something even remotely similar were to happen?

I agree that Albanian extremism is Macedonia’s biggest threat, but weren’t you just saying above that Americans are unaware of their rights and there has been no showing of ‘national discontent’? I understand your sentiment and agree – rewarding extremism is just not on.

Open your eyes and see that there is something very wrong that our parliament is not in ashes and that the whole government is not hanging in the center of Skopje along with the terrorists. In 99% of countries such an act as treacherous as the one to appoint a former murderer of your people as head of your people’s army would result in shear anarchy. Blind patriotism alone would be more than enough to end that saga quickly.

My eyes are wide open, but how do you expect anyone to do anything without a degree of enlightenment? Who do you expect to drive and direct your idea of ‘blind patriotism’? Why would anyone even follow it? As mentioned above, I think that you have misread the Greeks etc. For the most part, they do not follow a ‘blind patriotism’. They’ve had their debates, their awakening and even a civil war to ‘clean out the trash’ among their own. I think you need to reassess your assumptions.

So Tom, my proposal to you is simple. The current state of affairs is not one size fits all. Your ideology is not wrong, I agree 10000% with your ideology as it is also mine but it will be too little too late if something HUGE doesn’t change very fast. We need blind patriotism right now today or else the future will be lost very soon. I know and admit it’s like playing with fire or signing a contract with the devil but sometimes it has to be done. Blind patriotism may have lasting effects but the current situation is not any better, I’d say even worse. Every animal has its place under the sun, ultra nationalist are an animal that is needed from time to time to accomplish certain goals.

I will play out a short scenario for you of what I would like to happen right now.
I would like a small sect of ultra nationalists in ROM to absolutely run amok, and even assassinate the “minister” if possible. I want people in ROM to see that if you see something so treacherous that even the ultimate punishment is acceptable thus assenting that treachery is unacceptable. I think that such a dramatic and brute showing will open people’s eyes that you can do something and if your government is selling you out then grab your pitchfork and your noose and head to the capital. Macedonians need to see that if the desire is there something can change very quickly. That is where ultra nationalist are useful, quick shock and awe. Macedonians think politicians are like gods and that they are untouchable and invincible, that is what needs to be debunked very swiftly. One enlightened soul at a time will not accomplish that and pretty soon a terrorist will be president too.
Macedonians need blind patriotism to rid it of some very corrupt and some very nasty people. After the slate is clean, then can they begin to appreciate freedom.
If something were to “happen” to the terrorist I think people would become emboldened and not want nor allow another one to take his place. If more terrorists are allowed to run our country people will only become more disheartened and will want to give up even more. It’s been proven that Macedonians have no breaking point and they will go as low as you push them.
These are my views and I hope you will consider at least some of them like I have considered all of yours.

Gocka, forgive me, but I think your proposal is naïve and devoid of any analysis of what has already happened. Macedonia has already had an assassination attempt – remember Gligorov in 1995? Some claimed it was in relation to the Interim Accord. It did nothing. Earlier, Macedonia had a group known as the Solunski Atentati. It did nothing. Many others have been assassinated between them and the attempt on Gligorov. It did nothing. Further, I think your proposal is dangerous. Who will determine who is to be ‘eliminated’ and for what reason? On what principles will this be done? Who has given them that authority? How far will they take that authority? I have never seen extremists step aside for freedom. Finally, I think your proposal is immoral, the anti-thesis of what Macedonians should strive for and of course, criminal.

I think your prososal is the absolute opposite of what Macedonia needs. Again you are trying to create freedom through the use of tyranny – very Orwellian, extremist and tyrannical. I don’t understand that kind of thinking and it has never worked, ever.

[Gocka]

Gocka, I enjoy discussing these issues because I see them as key to what is happening with the Macedonian people. Please don’t misread my comments as aggressive or disparaging. I absolutely do not intend them as such. I just have a direct style of writing and usually dispense with pleasantries J

Agreed, as long as you attack my ideas not me then pleasantries are not needed. I must admit in your last array of answers I felt you flirted with insult on a few occasions. Like I said attack the ideas do not insult me personally. Otherwise healthy debate is needed, when an issue is debated both parties involved can learn something and that is the whole point of the debate, not to insult especially since we both love Macedonia and only want what’s best.

If there is no ‘enlightened core’, then who is driving their agendas? Of course there is an ‘enlightened core’ (at the very least), otherwise they would be bouncing around aimlessly like Macedonians.

They do bounce around aimlessly hence their current predicament. Their mindset drives a lot of their agendas; there are official agendas and unofficial agendas. Ultra nationalism is a good at being a reactionary force, not an intellectual one. You don’t want ultra nationalists driving your politics but to be used as a crisis force to react quickly based solely on nationalism. For example you elect a killer of your own people to head your army, ultra nationalist “kill the bastard” end of ultra nationalist mission. An ultra nationalist is someone who at his core only likes and only wants to help his own nation and his own people, Macedonia, Macedonians. I think we have different opinion about what is actually going on in Greece and who the major players are and what their agendas are, that’s a long somewhat unrelated topic that we can get into if you wish.

I think you underestimate the ‘enlightenment’ of the Albanians and the Greeks. They know exactly what inalienable rights are (though they tend to make up extra’s) and have had these debates (and settled them) over a century ago. Macedonians are yet to be convinced that inalienable rights exist, let alone be convinced to exercise them. I have only ever come across a handful of Macedonians that can name the most fundamental inalienable rights. They usually come up with periphery rights or corollary rights which are debatable at best.

Possibly, it is kind of hard to see through the hate and racism and see enlightenment but it is possible that I have underestimated them. Possibly the Greeks but I find it very hard to believe that the Albanians are enlightened, they are more like easily impressionable zombies than enlightened folk. I think in the case of the Albanians they have some enlightened people who merely tell the rest what to do and think and they listen Agreed about the Macedonians. They do not like to think its too hard I guess.

There is a difference between “feeling” patriotic and actually being a patriot. I still contend that most (not all) Macedonians “feel” patriotic in the sense that they get a nice warm and fuzzy feeling when they hear Biser Balkanski, wave the ventilator at a football match or meet Gruevski at some event. Most (not all) Macedonians still “feel” a sense of betrayal at Albanian extremism being rewarded and Macedonians being oppressed within their own country. But “feeling” patriotism does not necessarily translate into genuine principled patriotism and is thus useless and false for the most part.

I first disagree that feeling fuzzy about biser balkanski or waving the ventilator constitutes feeling patriotic let alone being patriotic. In my opinion to feel patriotic is to want change at a minimum. For the Albanian example, simply feeling betrayed is not enough to constitute feeling patriotic, wanting to change it does. I think most Macedonians don’t want to fix their own country but would rather leave it behind. That is why I speak of blind nationalism over and over. At a bare minimum I would like to at least see Macedonians care more about changing their own country then trying to run away from it. Forget the details for a second; someone can’t say I feel patriotic if all he wants to do is run away. This is one point I think we are apart on and I think it may be a driving force behind how we look at the current situation and why we start to diverge at a point. You are an optimist about our people I am not. I think we are in a much worse state then you do thus I tend to lend myself to more extreme measure (out of desperation of course).

Gocka, I should not have to lecture you on the South, but I feel that you have not really thought that deeply about it. Whether many Southerners are racist or not is irrelevant to the issue at hand. So is their patriotism in this context. I was commenting on their understanding of their inalienable rights and responsibilities in comparison to the progressives who mock them AND that just because someone may not have as much intellectual capacity as others, this does not prevent them from understanding fundamental truths. Some of the things you mention that they oppose are a question for another topic, but nevertheless, opposition to them is built on a solid foundation of their rights and responsibilities – such as opposition to communism, socialism and universal healthcare. These things are not opposed because they are “foreign”, they are opposed because they are totalitarian, undermining individual freedom, inalienable rights, personal responsibility and democratic governance.

You cannot lecture me on the American south as I cannot lecture you on your local population. These are people I live and work with on a daily basis where your only experience with them is a TV or a book. It is not the same my friend and this is maybe a topic I can educate you on. Whether they are racist or not is very relevant because most of the time racism is what drives them not enlightenment. Most of the do not understand their rights. You cannot understand inalienable rights if you are opposed to others having the same rights. They are driven be racism and patriotism. In the USA you have to remember there is no ethnicity only nationality. True Americans are only those who are patriotic there is no race or ethnicity that can be defined as American. Most of the south believes that only white people are real Americans, because of their racist tendencies. The things that I mentioned that they opposed were mere examples of things they oppose because of prejudice not enlightenment. They oppose communism because its Russian, socialism because its French, etc. The only thing they have a firm grasp on is responsibility. They feel that they must do something but I think a large part of that is because they have nowhere else to go and know nothing else except where they are from, which a stark contrast to Macedonia. I would say they are at best half enlightened, they have no bearing when it comes to rights. Just like the Albanians the American south has a few smarter people who lead the mass and the mass listens. If you are still confident I will personally pay for a ticket and stay for you to spend some time in Alabama, Louisiana, or Tennessee. Then you can tell me what you think, keep in mind they don’t like white foreigners either.

Mass protests are not the only way to voice concern and are probably the least effective, especially with all the other available options in the US. Do you really believe that the US is ‘almost as bad as any other country’? If you do, you have obviously not travelled much and I doubt you have lived in Macedonia or done anything in Macedonia of any substance. The key difference between the US (and other western countries) is that while not perfect, they maintain the rule of law, democratic governance and a free market. If you are going to compare this to Africa, Asia and South America and the massive failures they have in their domestic systems, and conclude that the US (and the west) are as bad, then I have to question your sincerity and/or ability to critically analyse their political/economic/social systems.

You tend to take words out of context to prove something that I didn’t mean in the first place. The USA is just as bad in regards to people knowing their rights. People in the USA are so intellectually lacking that sometimes it is shocking. You really have to live here to understand where all the ignorant and dumb American jokes come from. Talk to 100 Americans and 90 will tell you well I don’t like what my government is doing but what can I do about it, it is what it is I’m powerless to change it. You can’t lecture me about the people I see every single day. The approval rating of our Congress is like 20% yet the same people get reelected for almost their entire lives. That does not showcase people acting on their rights. Do you follow American politics or are you commenting in contra to me simply to be in constant disagreement? You either know nothing about the current situation in the USA or you have been severely mislead as I can assure you the situation on the ground is nothing like you describe it. Nobody was comparing rule of law or free market, we were talking about rights and peoples slave mentality. The USA maintains those things you mentioned not through he will of the people but through moneyed interests that it benefits. I won’t even bother commenting on the Africa, Middle East comment as it was completely irrelevant and not what so ever related to what I was talking about.

That’s right, but if people aren’t taught to use their brains, then they’ll blow with the wind and fall for anything. While you might be able to mislead them for a while, someone else will inevitably turn them again. This is not the answer. Only an enlightened people can credibly protect their interests and their rights.

Macedonians do need to be enlightened, that is the ultimate goal, and you missed my whole point. You take my words to extremes which they were not meant. Macedonia is in such a poor state that the only quick reactionary force that can cause any change is blind nationalism. We are talking instant change something needs to happen instantly before it becomes a total loss. In the long run yes people need to wake up or else they will never be able to maintain any sort of freedom and may very well be back at square one again.

Most Macedonians suffer from a desire not to think, but once they start using their brains it’s hard to go back without a lobotomy. But I’m interested in where you got these figures from?

These are not figures and do not act like you provided some figures with your assertions, these are based on experience as were yours. This was one of the poorest comments you made. As for their desire to not think I agree, they find it very hard to think. I didn’t say that the ones you convert will go back, what I said was if you have 10 people and you manage to convert 1, by the time you converted that 1 the other 9 have become total lost causes and cannot be converted. This is why I keep saying we need something to happen instantly to at least slow down the amount of people who are going to totally give up. In the mean time I am not against what you are saying. I don’t know if that’s coming across, that I agree with you that the ultimate goal is what you say, but I am focusing on the today and tomorrow where you are thinking 10 years from now.

Gocka, your understanding of the Jews and their history is substandard, based on myth (racist ones at that) and common misconception. Further, your comments are irrelevant to the issue at hand. The issue at hand is that you stated that the Macedonians are among the most battered people in the world. My point is that they are not. The Jews have been far more battered. Macedonians have not experienced anything close to what the Jews (and others) have experienced. It’s a fact of life, just deal with it – no need to be the biggest victim.

My understanding is not substandard, again out of context. You used them to compare to Macedonia, they cannot be compared because they are not an ethnic group, they are a religion. I feel no racism toward them what so ever, in fact I envy them. They have been able to transcend and blur the lines between religion, nationality, and ethnicity to where even someone as educated as you seems to forget that the Jews are only 1 of those 3. They are a perfect example of unity, breaking down barriers to come together as one people even though they are many different people. 4-5.8 died 5.8 being the absolute maximum that is fact not racism. They are a historically battered but not in the 21st century, or the late 20th. No one questioned whether Jews exist; Israel exists because there are many wealthy and powerful Jews around the world who hold enough influence to keep it afloat in shark infested waters. I think my people have been battered period; I will not put that point up for debate. You are the one who started comparing who has been more or less, I originally stated they are among the most and that was my personal opinion. Calling the kettle black I see.

I think you’ve misread Delcev and his activities, by a long shot, but that’s another discussion.

I disagree and I will stand by my comment. He was not the optimist you portray him to be by over romanticizing. That us another discussion.

I agree that Albanian extremism is Macedonia’s biggest threat, but weren’t you just saying above that Americans are unaware of their rights and there has been no showing of ‘national discontent’? I understand your sentiment and agree – rewarding extremism is just not on.

Glad be agree on something. Yes but the case is so extreme that I believe that they would react in the way mentioned. Again this is why I have the view that I have. Do you realize that a murderer of our own people a FOREIGN murderer of our own people is head of our people’s army? That is so devoid of logic so treacherous, that it warrants the comparison of Osama Bin Laden being head of the US military. My point was that even in countries where people are pretty tolerant and are not particularly easily agitated or compelled to act, such an act would be so over the top that even the most enslaved people would stand up and say what the fuck is going on here and just react out of shear anger let alone principal. That fact that Macedonians have no reacted in anger shows that the problem is far worse then it seems. Thus a far more extreme answer may be needed.

My eyes are wide open, but how do you expect anyone to do anything without a degree of enlightenment? Who do you expect to drive and direct your idea of ‘blind patriotism’? Why would anyone even follow it? As mentioned above, I think that you have misread the Greeks etc. For the most part, they do not follow a ‘blind patriotism’. They’ve had their debates, their awakening and even a civil war to ‘clean out the trash’ among their own. I think you need to reassess your assumptions.

Hate, anger, emotion, these are not enlightened reactions but they can be useful. Blind patriotism isn’t directed, it’s reactionary. Right now a reactionary force is needed. It is not a movement Tom; get your head out of that little square, think broader. I don’t want people to lead or follow blind patriotism I want them to feel it and react on it. It’s like an unchained beast but sometimes in desperate circumstances it is needed. The Greeks did not “clean” out the trash in fact the trash is what was left over. I think you need to reassess the severity of our predicament. Our national awakening is still not complete, even though it started a 150 years ago. That is the only place that he Greeks are more enlightened. I think you over estimate them.

Gocka, forgive me, but I think your proposal is naïve and devoid of any analysis of what has already happened. Macedonia has already had an assassination attempt – remember Gligorov in 1995? Some claimed it was in relation to the Interim Accord. It did nothing. Earlier, Macedonia had a group known as the Solunski Atentati. It did nothing. Many others have been assassinated between them and the attempt on Gligorov. It did nothing. Further, I think your proposal is dangerous. Who will determine who is to be ‘eliminated’ and for what reason? On what principles will this be done? Who has given them that authority? How far will they take that authority? I have never seen extremists step aside for freedom. Finally, I think your proposal is immoral, the anti-thesis of what Macedonians should strive for and of course, criminal.

First I do not have a policy of tyranny in mind please, you make it seem like I want to be a dictator and just want to clean out whatever I perceive as trash.
First of all the liquidation of the new “minister” would not be criminal, nor an assassination, it would be justice. Tom you of all people got too involved in arguing that you unconsciously supported the legitimacy of DUI and the framework agreement.
These people killed my people, if I went and killed but 1 man I would be brought to justice and sentenced to life in prison or in some countries death.
What I said was that an extreme reaction needs to happen to this extreme treachery. DUI is not a political party they are not politicians and practitioners of democracy, they are murderers and criminals. If I put on a uniform and wave a foreign flag and kill someone that gives me a free pass if I then put on a suit. Macedonians need to see with their own eyes that justice must prevail and that these people are not invincible, do you understand that most Macedonians are so down trodden and so embarrassed that they feel that these pieces of shit are untouchable? Someone needs to take matters in their own hands and bring those to justice that killed our people and embolden Macedonians and maybe next time they will not let them come to power in the first place and extreme measures will not be needed.

I think your prososal is the absolute opposite of what Macedonia needs. Again you are trying to create freedom through the use of tyranny – very Orwellian, extremist and tyrannical. I don’t understand that kind of thinking and it has never worked, ever.

You are telling me that brining to justice UCK terrorists that killed innocent Macedonians constitutes tyranny? You need to put down your pen and see the world for the shit hole it really is and not some text book on rights and idealized fairytales you read about. Liberty was never won with pens and thoughts it was always won with blood and it is still like that today unfortunately. I hope you realize that in your criticisms of me have caused you to forget who we are talking about. Murderers not people but monsters.
I am sorry but I feel it is you who is naïve and devoid of the reality of Macedonia. What will be next for the Albanian terrorists? War reparations? Presidency? When will it stop and how? Do you not see how much worse it gets year by year let alone 10 or 20 from now? The longer Macedonians tolerate these injustices and embarrassments the more likely that they will accept the next one. This needs to come to an abrupt end and fast.
Tom, I am not calling for war or even murder in all honesty, I would be perfectly happy if a mass of people marched to the parliament and dragged each and every UCK terrorist out and demanded that they be sent to court to face their crimes. This is the kind of blind patriotism I want in reality. Sometimes anger gets the best of me but that is only because it hurts so much to see what is going on. I don’t think there exists another country in the world where a foreign former murderer of the people can lead the people’s army. That is enough in my eyes for anarchy and to start from a completely clean slate. Forget enlightenment forget rights, I think the reset button needs to be hit and we need to start from scratch and then we should build upon rights and enlightenment.

[Vangelovski]

I first disagree that feeling fuzzy about biser balkanski or waving the ventilator constitutes feeling patriotic let alone being patriotic. In my opinion to feel patriotic is to want change at a minimum.

You’re confusing emotion with intellectual understanding/commitment.

For the Albanian example, simply feeling betrayed is not enough to constitute feeling patriotic, wanting to change it does.

Agreed, but that is a contradiction to what you wrote above.

I think most Macedonians don’t want to fix their own country but would rather leave it behind. That is why I speak of blind nationalism over and over. At a bare minimum I would like to at least see Macedonians care more about changing their own country then trying to run away from it. Forget the details for a second; someone can’t say I feel patriotic if all he wants to do is run away.

Of course people can feel an emotion (in this case patriotism) without actually understanding what it is and without actually being a patriot. You keep confusing your argument here.

You cannot lecture me on the American south as I cannot lecture you on your local population. These are people I live and work with on a daily basis where your only experience with them is a TV or a book. It is not the same my friend and this is maybe a topic I can educate you on.

I think I can, very easily. You make far too many assumptions on topics that you clearly are not well informed about, for example, my own background.

Whether they are racist or not is very relevant because most of the time racism is what drives them not enlightenment. Most of the do not understand their rights. You cannot understand inalienable rights if you are opposed to others having the same rights. They are driven be racism and patriotism. In the USA you have to remember there is no ethnicity only nationality. True Americans are only those who are patriotic there is no race or ethnicity that can be defined as American. Most of the south believes that only white people are real Americans, because of their racist tendencies. The things that I mentioned that they opposed were mere examples of things they oppose because of prejudice not enlightenment. They oppose communism because its Russian, socialism because its French, etc.

I agree that you cannot truly understand inalienable rights if you are opposed to others having the same rights. But you’re exaggeration of racism in the South is bewildering. Even your definition of the ‘South’ is bewildering. African Americans make up a large proportion of the South’s population – are they also opposed to their own rights? You’re falling for the very same myths and pseudo-intellectualism that many ‘liberals/progressives’ spew. Show me one Southerner, or any American for that matter, that opposes socialism because its supposedly “French”.

The only thing they have a firm grasp on is responsibility. They feel that they must do something but I think a large part of that is because they have nowhere else to go and know nothing else except where they are from, which a stark contrast to Macedonia. I would say they are at best half enlightened, they have no bearing when it comes to rights. Just like the Albanians the American south has a few smarter people who lead the mass and the mass listens. If you are still confident I will personally pay for a ticket and stay for you to spend some time in Alabama, Louisiana, or Tennessee. Then you can tell me what you think, keep in mind they don’t like white foreigners either.

Gocka, I’ve got a feeling I’ve spent more time in the Southern states than you have. I’ve got a feeling that I have more contacts in the Southern states than you have, that I’ve undertaken actual research on the issue at hand and that I have a much greater insight into the Southern “mentality” than you ever will. You’re starting to use the old Gligorovist argument that if you don’t live in a specific place, you don’t know anything about it and should not be allowed to comment.

You tend to take words out of context to prove something that I didn’t mean in the first place. The USA is just as bad in regards to people knowing their rights.

I think you have taken your own words out of context because my response didn’t suit you. You were the one that gave the example of Bin Laden becoming the Secretary of Defence and wrote about the outrage that would ensue. Now you’re trying to claim that Americans don’t know their rights and that I took your words out of context.

People in the USA are so intellectually lacking that sometimes it is shocking. You really have to live here to understand where all the ignorant and dumb American jokes come from. Talk to 100 Americans and 90 will tell you well I don’t like what my government is doing but what can I do about it, it is what it is I’m powerless to change it.

Where did you get these statistics from? Are you just making them up to embellish your argument?

The approval rating of our Congress is like 20% yet the same people get reelected for almost their entire lives. That does not showcase people acting on their rights

Where did you get these statistics from?

Do you follow American politics or are you commenting in contra to me simply to be in constant disagreement? You either know nothing about the current situation in the USA or you have been severely mislead as I can assure you the situation on the ground is nothing like you describe it.

I do follow American politics quite closely, but again, you’re just using the old Gligorovist argument that no one knows about anything outside of their immediate neighbourhood and therefore should not be allowed to comment.

Nobody was comparing rule of law or free market, we were talking about rights and peoples slave mentality. The USA maintains those things you mentioned not through he will of the people but through moneyed interests that it benefits. I won’t even bother commenting on the Africa, Middle East comment as it was completely irrelevant and not what so ever related to what I was talking about.

If you cannot understand the link between inalienable rights and issues such as the rule of law, the free market or democratic governance, then your own understanding of inalienable rights is quite off. Further, appealing to conspiracy theories such as “moneyed interests” shows that you do not have a substantive understanding of politics, economics or society in general and that again, you have a substandard understanding of inalienable rights and how they are linked to the issues of a free market and the rule of law.

Macedonians do need to be enlightened, that is the ultimate goal, and you missed my whole point.

That has not been your point. Up until now you have been arguing that most Macedonians cannot be enlightened and even if they could they would be lost quicker than we could enlighten them and that they need to blindly follow your version patriotism and/or nationalism.

You take my words to extremes which they were not meant.

You need to better express your ideas.

These are not figures and do not act like you provided some figures with your assertions

They are figures and you provided them to back up your statements. I never said I provided figures and when I do, I provide links/sources.

I didn’t say that the ones you convert will go back, what I said was if you have 10 people and you manage to convert 1, by the time you converted that 1 the other 9 have become total lost causes and cannot be converted.

How did you determine this? How do you determine exactly at what point in time someone is “completely lost”? This is ridiculous and is verging on the point of charshiski muabeti. We like to keep it above that here.

but I am focusing on the today and tomorrow where you are thinking 10 years from now.

If today and tomorrow are so critical, what are you doing wasting your time with me?

My understanding is not substandard, again out of context. You used them to compare to Macedonia, they cannot be compared because they are not an ethnic group, they are a religion.

Your understanding is now beyond substandard. Do you even know what an ethnic group is? Ethnicity is determined by various factors, including religion. Group identity does not need to be based on ethnicity at all. You were talking about peoples, now you want to redefine commonly accepted concepts so that you can prove your silly comment right. What is more concerning is why you are arguing for the title of ‘biggest victim’?

I feel no racism toward them what so ever, in fact I envy them. They have been able to transcend and blur the lines between religion, nationality, and ethnicity to where even someone as educated as you seems to forget that the Jews are only 1 of those 3.

I know what those three concepts are. Do you? I doubt it seeing as you are using them in the wrong context, linking them incorrectly and making ridiculous claims about them.

4-5.8 died 5.8 being the absolute maximum that is fact not racism.

If this is your response, then your initial comment to the 6 million is superfluous.

They are a historically battered but not in the 21st century, or the late 20th.

You need to do some basic research. I do not usually spend this much time on people who can’t get the basics right and my patience is now wearing thin.

No one questioned whether Jews exist.

Many Muslim states deny their RIGHT to exist.

Israel exists because there are many wealthy and powerful Jews around the world who hold enough influence to keep it afloat in shark infested waters. .

You need to get off the conspiracy theories.

I think my people have been battered period; I will not put that point up for debate. You are the one who started comparing who has been more or less, I originally stated they are among the most and that was my personal opinion. Calling the kettle black I see.

No one said Macedonians weren’t battered. You claimed they were among the most battered. They clearly are not. I’d like to add more examples, but I doubt you are well enough informed about them to make substantive comments.

Do you realize that a murderer of our own people a FOREIGN murderer of our own people is head of our people’s army? That is so devoid of logic so treacherous, that it warrants the comparison of Osama Bin Laden being head of the US military. My point was that even in countries where people are pretty tolerant and are not particularly easily agitated or compelled to act, such an act would be so over the top that even the most enslaved people would stand up and say what the fuck is going on here and just react out of shear anger let alone principal. That fact that Macedonians have no reacted in anger shows that the problem is far worse then it seems. Thus a far more extreme answer may be needed.

No one is questioning the problem, so I’m not sure who you’re trying to convince. However, you should not offer “answers” that you yourself are not willing to implement.

First I do not have a policy of tyranny in mind please, you make it seem like I want to be a dictator and just want to clean out whatever I perceive as trash.

Then what do you call it when an angry mob blindly following someones idea of nationalism goes around killing whomever they decide needs to be "eliminated"?

First of all the liquidation of the new “minister” would not be criminal, nor an assassination, it would be justice.

No, justice is when he is given due process (remember inalienable rights and the Southerners supposedly not understanding them because they are racist and don’t want ‘others’ to have the same rights? – It seems like you don’t want to extend inalienable rights to Albanians).

These people killed my people, if I went and killed but 1 man I would be brought to justice and sentenced to life in prison or in some countries death.

There is no evidence available that Xhaferi even fired a shot during the war. He was commander of the 116 Brigade that was based in the mountains around Gostivar. Very little, if any, fighting actually took place in that region. Xhaferi, to my knowledge, was never accused of any war crimes. The problem with Xhaferi is that he holds an extremist ideology (not too far from yours from what I can see) and was a high ranking official of an extremist organisation. But to claim that he personally killed someone without any evidence is just silly.

What I said was that an extreme reaction needs to happen to this extreme treachery.

Again, you should not offer solutions that you yourself would not be willing to carry out.

Someone needs to take matters in their own hands and bring those to justice that killed our people and embolden Macedonians and maybe next time they will not let them come to power in the first place and extreme measures will not be needed.

Is that going to be you or some mysterious “someone”?

You are telling me that brining to justice UCK terrorists that killed innocent Macedonians constitutes tyranny? You need to put down your pen and see the world for the shit hole it really is and not some text book on rights and idealized fairytales you read about.

Like I already explained to you, you do not understand the concept of justice and you make far too many assumptions about my background.

Liberty was never won with pens and thoughts it was always won with blood and it is still like that today unfortunately. I hope you realize that in your criticisms of me have caused you to forget who we are talking about. Murderers not people but monsters.

There are many examples of liberty being won through non-violent means. Secondly, liberty is an idea and unless the idea has been conceived, it will never even see the field of battle. But I agree, people should always be prepared to take up arms to ensure their rights and freedom are protected. I’ve argued that ever since I started to think about these issues.

I am sorry but I feel it is you who is naïve and devoid of the reality of Macedonia. What will be next for the Albanian terrorists? War reparations? Presidency? When will it stop and how? Do you not see how much worse it gets year by year let alone 10 or 20 from now? The longer Macedonians tolerate these injustices and embarrassments the more likely that they will accept the next one. This needs to come to an abrupt end and fast.

They will accept the next capitulation, there is no question of that. But gain Gocka, are you willing to implement your own solutions or are you waiting for your blind followers to do it for you?

Tom, I am not calling for war or even murder in all honesty.

Lets call a spade a spade, you are calling for murder by an angry mob with no due process and then expect this angry mob to transition to democracy and the rule of law. Show me one example where this has ever happened?

I would be perfectly happy if a mass of people marched to the parliament and dragged each and every UCK terrorist out and demanded that they be sent to court to face their crimes.

This is a change.

Sometimes anger gets the best of me but that is only because it hurts so much to see what is going on. I don’t think there exists another country in the world where a foreign former murderer of the people can lead the people’s army. That is enough in my eyes for anarchy and to start from a completely clean slate. Forget enlightenment forget rights, I think the reset button needs to be hit and we need to start from scratch and then we should build upon rights and enlightenment.

That change didn’t last long.

[Gocka]

Tom,
Most of what I said last time we exchanged words was out of total anger, I was arguing with this British journalist and writing to you at the same time, I totally blew my top, your words as well didn't help as I felt they were also degrading at times. I trust you won't judge me solely on the outbursts but if you must then by all means. I spoke out of anger and with deep passion about what's going on. I am against violence as in the end it won't solve anything but I will still contend that more extreme measures need to be taken and at this point with how little is actually being done pretty much anything will constitute as being extreme. The only thing that I wish to drive home with you is the point that while we try and open more and more Macedonian hearts and minds we may not be hard done to explore and at least discuss what other measures can be taken in the mean time to ensure that all hope is not lost before the people are ready for their big stand. What I would like to see happen is people for people to at least show smalls whimpers of patriotism, without fully even understanding it, I want to see more of the emotional side. If 50,000 Macedonians got as angry and as passionate as I did t the other day maybe just maybe they may have banded together and said enough is enough, then if 500 of you were present to be the ideological driver of the ship then maybe just maybe something may happen. Let's put our differences aside because at the end of the day I respect you as a person who at a minimum has strong ideals and in his heart wants what's right. I am not as crazy as I may have come off nor as stupid .
As for the UCK, the minister, and DUI, I do not want them killed, rotting in prison possibly but not murdered in cold blood because that is what those animals stand for not Macedonians. They all took up arms against our country and acted together as a rebel force, that alone constitutes treason and I believe they should all face a trial and be convicted and punished accordingly (a pipe dream).
May I conclude by offering you some friendly advice. You are a smart guy, fairly witty, ideologically firm, but if you ever want to amount to a force for good you need to learn to be more of a leader. You are way to condescending and uncompromising on menial things. I think you are capable of very good things but only if you can learn to be more political and learn how to get people behind you. You do not need to come down like a ton of bricks to drive a point, also attacking your opponents credibility by being demeaning is also short sighted. I think you are smarter than me, but I am confident that if me and you stood outside in front of a group of people and we were to see who could get more people to follow him I think I would win. This is constructive criticism, take it only if you actually want to accomplish something for the Macedonian struggle. It would be a shame to waist your intelligence and strong mindedness because you simply do not know how to come down a few rungs and be more likeable.
You will probably find a reason to criticize this as well and insult me in some way but that's ok because like you I know who I am and what I stand for. Regardless I will carry on trying to help out my people anyway I can, and I know you will do the same.