Razer and Stefan - Bulgar morons

[Razer]

And another one...

[Razer]

Cyril and Methodius were Macedonian educators who developed the Glagolica alphabet and translated the Bible in a Macedonian dialect. They did this with the aim of providing other peoples in Europe with a means to hear liturgy and learn literature in a related language to their own. Their mission began as an initiative of East Rome and afterward took on a life of its own. It had absolutely nothing to do with Bulgaria.

Clement, Naum and other disciples of the Macedonian educators were responsible for the creation of the Cyrillic alphabet. It was developed as a simplified form of Glagolica with additions from the Greek alphabet, to make it easier for the local Balkan populations to understand, many of whom were already accustomed to seeing Greek letters. Nevertheless, Glagolica (together with Cyrillic) continued to be used in Macedonia (but not Bulgaria) until the 13th century.

The Macedonian students were returning to their homeland when they were greeted by Boris, who was looking for a way to reduce the influence of East Rome and the Pagan Bulgars. Did Boris adopt the Cyrillic alphabet and the language it was based on (which was a Macedonian dialect) for his kingdom, in place of the Greek alphabet and language? Yes, he did. Was much of Macedonia under Bulgar rule/occupation at the time? Yes, it was. Instead of accepting it as an evolution of literary activity that began in Macedonia, you're trying to insinuate that Cyrillic was specifically created for Boris. Show me a contemporary source that specifically supports such an assertion.

Thanks for the detailed answer. I now know much, much better what your view is!

[Soldier of Macedon]

Let me know where you disagree, why you disagree, and what you base your disagreement on.

[Razer]

Exactly. So don't come here and tell us that most Bulgars are "good" with Macedonians. The above is not "good". It is condescending, racist and delusional. Just because most Bulgars are 'nice' to their faces doesn't mean shit, if all they're waiting for is for a Macedonian to turn their back before they start insulting them.

Naaah, here you got it completely wrong. For one - Bulgarians are the kind of people who tell you anything - good or bad - in your face. This is one of the differences between people in South Africa (Western world in general) and people here. Other foreigners living in Bulgaria have also noticed it and found it hard to adjust (I have two South African friends who moved to live here). In short, Bulgarians don't smile in your face and talk behind your back, like they do in South Africa and I have noticed that in England too (there was the worse). They'll be honest and tell you what they think, even if it's rude.

They may say bad things, but they don't mean harm, I guess that's what I'm saying...

[Razer]

Let me know where you disagree, why you disagree, and what you base your disagreement on.

Cool bananas I'm going to prepare my counter-argument and post it hour-two...But first, it's dinner time.

[Soldier of Macedon]

They may say bad things, but they don't mean harm, I guess that's what I'm saying...

Can't you see the hypocrisy in what you're suggesting? Bulgars are "good" with Macedonians, but most of them don't respect the Macedonian identity and consider them 'Bulgars'. Bulgars say bad things about Macedonians, but they don't mean no harm. You can try to polish this shit Bulgar attitude as much as you like, in the end, it is still shit. It's like me calling you a Tatarised/Bulgarised Macedonian and an invented nation, but I don't mean no harm

[Razer]

Can't you see the hypocrisy in what you're suggesting? Bulgars are "good" with Macedonians, but most of them don't respect the Macedonian identity and consider them 'Bulgars'. Bulgars say bad things about Macedonians, but they don't mean no harm. You can try to polish this shit Bulgar attitude as much as you like, in the end, it is still shit. It's like me calling you a Tatarised/Bulgarised Macedonian and an invented nation, but I don't mean no harm

I agree it sounds crazy and I can see why you don't like it...What I'm trying to say is that you need to draw a line between two things in your view of Bulgarians - it's one thing to talk crazy shit, and another to actually do crazy shit. Think of Bulgarians as a mad dog that just barks, but doesn't bite. I'm afraid the real bites will come from the other side of Macedonia.

I hope it makes at least a little sense...

[Razer]

@ Soldier of Macedon

Ok, let's get back to Cyril and Methodius:

First, I want to share that everything that I'm going to post comes from non-Bulgarian sources and it is well established as official historical facts.

Lets look at a map of the Balkans during that time.


Source: Euratlas

We can clearly see that parts (not all) of Macedonia were under Bulgarian rule, including Ohrid. At that time, the main powers on the Balkans were the Bulgarian and Byzantine Empires. Of course, the populous of those two states was multi-ethical and in my opinion, included the relatives of ancient Macedonians.

It had absolutely nothing to do with Bulgaria.

Wrong. Bulgaria did play a role in the creation and then distribution of the Cyrillic alphabet. Here is an insert from the Catholic Online website:

It was not, until after Methodius' death, which is placed, though not with certainty, on 8 April 885, that the animosity erupted into an open conflict. Gorazd, whom Methodius had designated as his successor, was not recognised by Pope Stephen V. The same Pope forbade the use of the Slavic liturgy and placed the infamous Wiching as Methodius' successor. The latter exiled the disciples of the two brothers from Great Moravia in 885. They fled to the First Bulgarian Empire, where they were welcomed and commissioned to establish theological schools. There they devised the Cyrillic script on the basis of the Glagolitic. Cyrillic gradually replaced Glagolitic as the alphabet of the Old Church Slavonic language, which became the official language of the Bulgarian Empire and later spread to the Eastern Slav lands of Kievan Rus'. Cyrillic eventually spread throughout most of the Slavic world to become the standard alphabet in the Orthodox Slavic countries. Hence, Cyril and Methodius' efforts also paved the way for the spread of Christianity throughout Eastern Europe.

The early Cyrillic alphabet was developed in the First Bulgarian Empire as a simplification of the Glagolitic alphabet which more closely resembled the Greek alphabet. It has been attributed to Saint Clement of Ohrid, a disciple of Saints Cyril and Methodius. The alphabet was most likely developed at the Preslav Literary School at the beginning of the 10th century (for more information, see Cyrillic script).

After the death of Cyril, Clement accompanied Methodius from Rome to Pannonia and Great Moravia. After the death of Methodius himself in 885, Clement headed the struggle against the German clergy in Great Moravia along with Gorazd. After spending some time in jail, he was expelled from Great Moravia and in 885 or 886 reached the borders of the Bulgarian Empire together with Naum of Preslav, Angelarius, and possibly Gorazd (according to other sources, Gorazd was already dead by that time). The four of them were afterwards sent to the Bulgarian capital of Pliska, where they were commissioned by Tsar Boris I of Bulgaria to instruct the future clergy of the state in the Slavonic language.

After the adoption of Christianity in 865, religious ceremonies in Bulgaria were conducted in Greek by clergy sent from the Byzantine Empire. Fearing growing Byzantine influence and weakening of the state, Boris viewed the adoption of the Old Slavonic language as a way to preserve the political independence and stability of Bulgaria. With a view thereto, Boris made arrangements for the establishment of two literary schools (academies) where theology was to be taught in the Slavonic language. The first of the schools was to be founded in Pliska, and the second in the Kutmichevitsa region of the Bulgarian empire.

While Naum of Preslav stayed in Pliska working on the foundation of the Pliska Literary School, Clement was commissioned by Boris I to organise the teaching of theology to future clergymen in Old Church Slavonic in Kutmichevitsa. For a period of seven years — between 886 and 893 — Clement taught some 3,500 disciples in the Slavonic language and the Glagolitic alphabet. In 893 he was ordained archbishop of Drembica (Velika), also in Kutmichevitsa. Upon his death in 916 he was buried in his monastery, Saint Panteleimon, in Ohrid.

Saint Clement of Ohrid was one of the most prolific and important writers in Old Bulgarian (the Bulgarian redaction of Old Church Slavonic). He is credited with the Panonic Hagiography of Saint Cyril and Saint Methodius. Clement translated the Flower Triode containing church songs sung from Easter to Pentecost, and is believed to be the author of the Holy Service and the Life of St Clement, the Roman Pope, as well as of the oldest service dedicated to St. Cyril and St. Methodius.

Source: Catholic Online

This is far from nothing mate! Also, remember that soon after that, during the rule of Simeon the Great (Boris' grand son), Bulgaria will achieve it's so called "Golden Age". Simeon's grandson was Roman of Bulgaria and Samuil (Tsar Samuil) was serving as a general in his army.

Also, the majority of population in the Balkans at that time was Christian. This included the Bulgarians, the Slavs and the Macedonians.

[Razer]

And here's what Encyclopedia Britannica (not Encyclopaedia Bulgarica), has to say:

Boris was quite active in inculcating the Christian faith among the Bulgarian people, in organizing the Bulgarian church as an independent institution, and in building churches throughout the country. In 886 he gave asylum to Clement, Nahum, and Angelarius, the disciples of Cyril and Methodius, missionaries to the Slavs, who had been driven out of Moravia. With Boris’s active assistance and material support, these disciples founded centres of Slavic learning at Pliska, Preslav, and Ohrid. As a result of the intensive work of the Slav scholars, the Slavic language replaced Greek in church services and in literary life and became the country’s official language.

In 889 Boris I abdicated and became a monk, but he retained the right to take an active part in the government of the state. Boris’s eldest son and heir, Vladimir (889–893), abandoned his father’s policy and became the instrument of a pagan reaction and a leader of the opponents of Slavic letters and literature. Boris then returned to active politics. With the aid of loyal boyars and the army, Boris drove his son from the throne. Vladimir was blinded, rendering him unfit for rule, and was replaced by Boris’s third son, who ruled as Simeon the Great (893–927). Boris afterward retired to his monastery, making generous grants to the Bulgarian church and patronizing Slav scholarship. He was canonized by the Orthodox church.

Source: Encyclopedia Britannica

[Razer]

And one day you can go to Ohrid, visit the St. Naum monastery and in it you'll see with your own eyes a beautiful fresco of Boris I dating back to around 900 AD I think. I was there in '92, when we visited Ohrid with my school.

[Risto the Great]

Hi Razer, what is the Bulgarian stance on what their original language was?

[George S.]

I bet they tried to convert the macedonians to bulgarism telling them they are bulgars.Trying to change their cosciousness.Thanks Razor.

[Razer]

Where, in OZ do you set up camp? Is there ANY Bulgarian Orthodox Church's? Who, is George Mladenoff? DON'T SAY NOT SURE ..

In SA there are no Bulgarian Orthodox churches, so we were going to a Greek one, together with other slav people.

And I haven't heard of George Mladenoff, sorry.

[Razer]

Hi Razer, what is the Bulgarian stance on what their original language was?

There are two views - the old one that it was Turkic and the new one (since the fall of communism) that it was Iranian. It's hard to say because Bulgarians moved a lot. My opinion is that is started as Iranian, then got mixed with Turkic and Slavic.

[Razer]

So what do you think about the following quotes I found? If you guys can't read it let me know and I'll translate it.