Razer and Stefan - Bulgar morons

[Dejan]

избришетего оваа ѓубре

[Razer]

If you think this is propaganda, then I'll not be posting any more material like that...I myself, look at news from Macedonia every single day and try to stay up-to-date with the situation on both sides.

[George S.]

it is insulting to listen when they don't have a high regard.Same goes for respect.If you don't give any don't expect any back.

[Razer]

I don't think it has anything to do with respect, but I can understand how you can see it that way...I wish Bulgarians and Macedonians can seat and start communicating face-to-face...And we can get Chuck Norris to be the moderator.

[George S.]

so what's the future of bulgaria?is it going to stay in the eu.?

[Risto the Great]

Tsar Samuil and the Cyrillic alphabet are considered the middle ages and Macedonians don't acknowledge any relationship of both to Bulgaria. Both Bulgarian and Serbian medieval history is very well documented so there's very little room for speculations. The Serbs arrived over 600 years after the Romans conquered Macedonia so you can't compare the two.

But Serbs even described themselves as Bulgars on occasions. At least you don't seek to deny them their notable achievements. Well done.

I note you still can't bring yourself to admit the direction of language influence I keep referring to:

MACEDONIAN (native speakers) ----> BULGAR (adopted language)

Feel free to embrace it so we can move forward together holding hands.

[Risto the Great]

@ Risto the Great

Actually, Bulgaria has managed to reduce it's foreign debt about 10 times since the fall of Communism and today it's the second lowest in EU. I think the biggest benefit of joining the EU is in the tourism sector, which grows every year. More and more people from the West are visiting the country, plus the EU helps with the founding of different infrastructure and reconstruction projects. So there are positive factors. Are salaries still low in Bulgaria? Yes. Are pensions low? Yes. Is living in Bulgaria all perfect? Of course not. But I think the country is moving forward, and this is why I choose to stay here and be part of it.

Second lowest in the EU? Please don't compare anything in the EU to the real world. That house of cards is yet to reveal itself truly.

But anyway, tell me more about the foreign debt, here is a graph from what seems to be your personal website:



My very quick research suggests the external debt did not really change at all from 1990 (approx 10 billion US) through to 2003 (approx 10 billion EUR). I question why you feel you need to lie about this or are you simply ignorant of the foreign debt?

Do you notice when the debt ramped up? You will be paying for those infrastructure and reconstruction projects for many years to come. You have lost your sovereignty and if Germany ever decides to pull the pin, it will be even worse than it was before when Breshnev was doing it "Russian Style" to Bulgaria.

Macedonia has tourists.

[DraganOfStip]

I'd really like to see a "questions for Voltron the Greek" thread as well,now that we've seen Razer's point of view I think it'll be interesting for all of us to see Greek version of events,don't you agree?

[EgejskaMakedonia]

I'd really like to see a "questions for Voltron the Greek" thread as well,now that we've seen Razer's point of view I think it'll be interesting for all of us to see Greek version of events,don't you agree?

I disagree. I don't think the forum should develop a thread specifically aimed at any non-Macedonian member. It's almost like an interrogation in here, despite both sides seemingly consenting to this discussion.

I think a member's stance on certain issues should be sought through the general course of their posting on various topics. That would also see that issues discussed here are in their relevant threads (e.g the language, tsar Samoil, etc).

Someone looking for debate or information on certain topics isn't going to readily assume that the 'Questions for X the Y' thread will contain it.

[DraganOfStip]

I disagree. I don't think the forum should develop a thread specifically aimed at any non-Macedonian member. It's almost like an interrogation in here, despite both sides seemingly consenting to this discussion.

I think a member's stance on certain issues should be sought through the general course of their posting on various topics. That would also see that issues discussed here are in their relevant threads (e.g the language, tsar Samoil, etc).

Someone looking for debate or information on certain topics isn't going to readily assume that the 'Questions for X the Y' thread will contain it.

Well in between lines that was exactly my point.Why would Razer have his own thread in the first place?If he has one than logically there should be one for Voltron,Onur etc. and that would really look like an interrogation to these people.

@ Razer

Dude,the guy from Stip (which happens to be my hometown) is full of shit.Let me tell you why.First of all he's the ONLY Bulgarian from Stip that I've ever heard of (and I live in Stip since my birth).Secondly,he says that getting new licence plates for a car in Macedonia costs up to 2500 Euros.Well my registration expenses are some 200 Euros MAX.So he's lying.Third,like most Bulgarians,he again stresses out the theory that when Tito came to power he created Macedonian language,identity etc etc.Well,my grandfather is born in 1930.So that's some 15 years BEFORE the alleged 'invention' of our nation.He's one of maybe 100 000 - 200 000 (exact number unknown) people that were born pre-1945 and are still alive today.If they really were Bulgarians previously,why didn't anyone back in 1991 (and back then there were even more of those people alive) when we won our independence and communism died, stand up and say to the world 'alright men,enough was enough,the commies are down,let's go back being Bulgarians again'?Because they WEREN'T.And honestly,how can one person with a simple stroke of a pen create a nation overnight and all those people in question were perfectly fine with that?It's like today Barrack Obama signs a decree that all Americans become a new nation.Would the Americans just embrace that?Would any normal person do?And don't say 'well the commies held them at gunpoint so they had to keep their mouths shut'.No one can hold more than 2 million people hostage.Those are facts that most Bulgarians overlook today.My grandparents and people their generation always felt Macedonian.If indeed even after 1991 it was forbidden to express your national feelings publicly,there would still be family chit-chats on that subject and people would be talking about it secretly.So why aren't they?It's pure logic and common sense - they were always Macedonians.
Most Macedonians go to Bulgarian college and obtain Bulgarian college degree and passport because of the opportunities it offers them - Bulgarian universities are internationally well recognized and their diploma is well appreciated,unlike Macedonian ones.With Bulgarian passport you can go everywhere in the world without visa or stay restrictions.Macedonian passport doesn't offer that.Macedonians do it for better life opportunities,not because they revived their Bulgarian national feelings like it's presented in Bulgaria.And let me point you to another propaganda from your government.One of my friends has a dual Macedonian and Bulgarian citizenship.On his Bulgarian ID card,in English a paragraphs says 'citizenship'.Your buddies have that translated to the Bulgarian word of 'nationality'.Instead of 'гражданство (државјанство)' they wrote 'националност',as in ethnic affiliation.Manipulation of the highest degree.Shame on them.

[Razer]

so what's the future of bulgaria?is it going to stay in the eu.?

Of course nobody can say for sure what the future of Bulgaria and the EU will be. The economy of the country seems to be ok, but yes - there are many obstacles ahead (corruption being the top one), but I'm positive for the future of Bulgaria, just as I want to be positive for the future of Macedonia.

[Razer]

But Serbs even described themselves as Bulgars on occasions. At least you don't seek to deny them their notable achievements. Well done.

I note you still can't bring yourself to admit the direction of language influence I keep referring to:

MACEDONIAN (native speakers) ----> BULGAR (adopted language)

Feel free to embrace it so we can move forward together holding hands.

Well, Bulgarians and Serbians have always been on each other's throats, but at the end we can seat on the table, have a drink and laugh about it. I had several Serb friends in South Africa and we never had any conflicts.

Regrading the language - can you tell me what exactly you mean by Macedonian language? Give me some more detailed information about it, so that I can study it before making an opinion. I mean, I'd like to read first, from as many sources as possible, and go from there.

[George S.]

getting into debt seems to be the innthing.So why just get into debt that they can't possibly pay back even with euro dollars.

[DraganOfStip]

Originally posted by Risto The Great
MACEDONIAN (native speakers)

RtG,I would disagree with this because Macedonian language was also introduced to the Macedonian people after being slavicized,it wasn't their native language.I think the chronology would be Ancient Macedonian language--->Latin (after Macedonia fell to the Romans)--->Greek (after Byzantine Empire separated from Rome and introduced Orthodox Christianity as the official religion and Greek as the lingua franca of the empire)--->Old Slavonic and Macedonian after the arrival of the Slavs till this day.Historically speaking I think this would be more accurate.Still,it's undeniable that it wasn't the Bulgars' native tongue and they adopted it from the Slavs,since Old Slavonic is the forefather of every South Slavic language.

[Razer]

@ Risto the Great (Re: Gross Debt)

I have no motives to lie regarding anything. I don't look at it as Bulgaria VS Macedonia - I'm happy tourism have also improved in Macedonia and I hope to visit it myself one day.

Gross debt is a complex topic and we can talk for it for hours and days. Yes, the gross debt have risen to $36.15 billion, but the public dept has fallen to 16.2% of GDP (from around 80%) 10 years ago. Those are normal figures for a country like Bulgaria, which is developing.

You seem to have a very negative opinion about the EU...Why is that? I also have some negative views about it, but at the end of the day I think it's better to be in it, than out.