Ivan Trickovski

[EgejskaMakedonia]

EM, I don't think anyone suggested that 'selling his identity' was a motive, but it certainly was an outcome. As for those of us that live in Australia and care about Macedonian freedom and their natural rights, you should inform yourself about the personal sacrifices that have been made before you compare us with Trickovski.

How can you possibly speak on behalf of someone you've never met? Has he stated anywhere that he isn't Macedonian? What happened to 'we don't care what the Greeks think?'

I don't doubt the personal sacrifices made by Australian Macedonians, some of the most passionate Macedonians live within our communities. Here's my point though. Most of our families came to Australia for a better life? Am I wrong? Yet their official stance in relation to the name of Macedonia is 'Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia.' Obviously the Australians have far more respect for Macedonians than most Greeks, but isn't this being a bit hypocritical? We may disagree with the derogatory term and fight against it, but in the mean time we are further developing our education, jobs, careers in Australia. Can't you see how bizarre it sounds when put into that context? The political environment may differ, however the concept is the same.

Who said selling out his identity was the motive? Nobody. The motive is money. Selling out his identity is a by-product which he finds acceptable. Would you find it acceptable? What exactly do you 'tend' to agree with?

I agree with maintaining self-respect and protecting ones' identity, and I find it quite uncomfortable to see a Macedonian playing in a Greek Cypriot team, yet how does that warrant individuals to immediately label him and other Macedonians as sell-outs, with no evidence whatsoever. He is playing for a club, not a country.

What does Australia recognise your identity and language as, being a citizen of this country? Is it something other than Macedonian?

Macedonian, but as far as I'm aware, the name of our country is formally recognised as the 'Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia.'

Would it overpower your loyalty? If not, what is the problem with asking for other Macedonians to be held to the same standard of dignity? And are you suggesting that only clubs from Cyprus are scouting in Macedonia, if so, how can you possibly assume that?

I'd rather maintain my dignity than chase the dollar signs, but that's easy for anyone to say until the opportunity is presented to them. My 'counter-assumption' is based on the fact that you 'assume' he was provided with viable alternatives, that would ensure a development process which is on par or even surpasses that of his current club. APOEL are in the group stage of the champions league, something most clubs will be lucky to experience once in a lifetime.

[Vangelovski]

How can you possibly speak on behalf of someone you've never met? Has he stated anywhere that he isn't Macedonian? What happened to 'we don't care what the Greeks think?'

I don't doubt the personal sacrifices made by Australian Macedonians, some of the most passionate Macedonians live within our communities. Here's my point though. Most of our families came to Australia for a better life? Am I wrong? Yet their official stance in relation to the name of Macedonia is 'Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia.' Obviously the Australians have far more respect for Macedonians than most Greeks, but isn't this being a bit hypocritical? We may disagree with the derogatory term and fight against it, but in the mean time we are further developing our education, jobs, careers in Australia. Can't you see how bizarre it sounds when put into that context? The political environment may differ, however the concept is the same.

Trickovski's actions speak for themselves.

To compare the circumstances in which Macedonians find themselves in Australia to those of Trickovski is ludicrous. The vast majority of Australian Macedonians have been in Australia long before Greece even had a problem with our identity. Further, the vast majority of Australian Macedonians were either born in Australia or are nationalised Australians. To imply that their life in Australia is somehow comparable to Trickovski's business dealings with Cypriot football clubs is an outright insult. Macedonian Australians are an integral part of the Australian nation - their lives here are not opportunistic business transactions like those of Trickovski.

Further, sweeping aside their decades of personal sacrifices that you could not even begin to imagine is rubbing salt into their wounds.

[EgejskaMakedonia]

To compare the circumstances in which Macedonians find themselves in Australia to those of Trickovski is ludicrous.

Which is why, if you had read my post properly, I stated that this argument against Trickovski is bizarre. But if you're prepared to base your opinions on an individual purely on 'assumptions' rather than first-hand evidence, so be it.

The vast majority of Australian Macedonians have been in Australia long before Greece even had a problem with our identity. Further, the vast majority of Australian Macedonians were either born in Australia or are nationalised Australians. To imply that their life in Australia is somehow comparable to Trickovski's business dealings with Cypriot football clubs is an outright insult. Macedonian Australians are an integral part of the Australian nation - their lives here are not opportunistic business transactions like those of Trickovski.

This has got nothing to do with anything discussed in this thread. You're trying to imply that I don't have any respect for Macedonians living in Australia, which again, if you had bothered to read my previous post correctly, is an absurd thing to say. One of the core reasons why Macedonians emigrated to Australia, America and Canada generations ago was due to the opportunity for a better life. Our values have changed since then and we are now proud members of the Australian community, but that does not change the fact that the Australian government does not recognise Macedonia under its constitutional name.

Further, sweeping aside their decades of personal sacrifices that you could not even begin to imagine is rubbing salt into their wounds.

I don't doubt their sacrifices and these people are most certainly the true heroes, but where is the relevance in this remark?

You're getting sidetracked and trying to deter from the core argument. Like I said it's a shame to see Macedonian players in a league or team that does not recognise their identity, yet that by no means substantiates someone as a 'sell-out.' On the official APOEL website his nationality is listed as 'FYROM,' which is the same place of birth title unwillingly labelled on Macedonian born Australians. The difference is we actively work to remove such an imposed title, but who are you to say that Macedonians in other nations have not done the same? I'll point it out again. Many of you have stated plenty of times 'who cares what the Greeks think.' Why should this case be any different? He has been presented with an opportunity to develop his career and you're more concerned over what they label him on a Greek website? I would much rather see Macedonian players avoid the Greek leagues, but how about you get some proper evidence before you start throwing accusations around.

It seems too often that people here are willing to jump the gun on any issue, despite the purpose of this thread being to appreciate the achievements and development of a Macedonian national player.

[Vangelovski]

No EM,

You made the absurd comparison to Australian Macedonians and are continuing to do so by implying that their situation is the same as Trickovski's, no matter how you try to weasel around that and backtrack (only to make the comparison again!). You are also blatantly disregarding the immense personal sacrifices made by Australian Macedonians and attempting to imply that Trickovski is somehow not doing what he is actually doing by asking for evidence when YOU yourself have cited that evidence!

I think I may have been mistaken about you EM. This is a whole new low.

[dimi28495]

Ivan Trickovski Goals - YouTube

[EgejskaMakedonia]

No EM,

You made the absurd comparison to Australian Macedonians and are continuing to do so by implying that their situation is the same as Trickovski's, no matter how you try to weasel around that and backtrack (only to make the comparison again!). You are also blatantly disregarding the immense personal sacrifices made by Australian Macedonians and attempting to imply that Trickovski is somehow not doing what he is actually doing by asking for evidence when YOU yourself have cited that evidence!

I think I may have been mistaken about you EM. This is a whole new low.

I'm not sure where you are getting these assumptions from Vangelovski. Can you please quote where I have disregarded the efforts of Australian Macedonians. I have actually praised them, so you may want to refrain from making false statements to try and position me as ungrateful. I said I AGREE that anyone should not put materialistic factors before their own identity and self-dignity, however I DISAGREE that we can sit here and label people as complete 'sell-outs,' with little to no knowledge of their personal life, career options and motives. It's simply not fair.

My comparison with Australia is based on the governments perception of us, not our own. This draws comparisons with the Greek and Cypriot government perceptions on our identity.
Tom, that is not first-hand evidence. Show me an interview or personal memoir where he has evidently shown complete disregard for his nationality (despite playing for Macedonia) and then I'll be convinced.

If you think that an APOEL website listing a player as 'FYROM' is first-hand evidence, then does this pose the same implications?

http://www.dfat.gov.au/geo/fyrom/index.html

I hope not, for your sake. I'm drawing the comparisons to highlight how absurd your accusations are, yet your stubborn approach is what is supporting such comparisons. I don't agree with drawing these parallels, but they show that you indeed are the one who is disrespecting Macedonians, while I'm essentially protecting them against external, unwanted perceptions.

Your comments could be considered extremely defamatory.

[Risto the Great]

Wow, a passionate thread.
I find it amusing because I barely care about most sports which includes soccer. I have a cousin in Macedonia (Gjorgji Hristov) who went and played for a Cypriot team for one season after playing in various leagues.

I have no doubt it was for money. I also have no doubt his options were shrinking rapidly as he approached the end of his career.

I wouldn't begrudge the guy for trying to make a buck and expect it would have been very tough being a Macedonian in such an environment. An opposing argument here is that he is in the thick of it and doing his best for Macedonia.

But what do I care, its only a game.

[United MKD]

Wow, a passionate thread.
I find it amusing because I barely care about most sports which includes soccer. I have a cousin in Macedonia (Gjorgji Hristov) who went and played for a Cypriot team for one season after playing in various leagues.
.

He was a great player one of our best and is only second to Pandev in goals for Macedonia, too bad injuries cut his career short and he never really made much out of it. I'll never forget his goal against England in Skopje but, great moment.

[Risto the Great]

Here it is:

Hristov Goal - against England - YouTube

[Vangelovski]

I'm not sure where you are getting these assumptions from Vangelovski. Can you please quote where I have disregarded the efforts of Australian Macedonians. I have actually praised them, so you may want to refrain from making false statements to try and position me as ungrateful.

You have done so by trying to compare the actions of Trickovski and others like him with Australian Macedonians. The circumstances under which Trickovski went to play for a Greek team as someone from FYROM are not in any universe comparable to the circumstances of over 86,000 Australian Macedonians.

I said I AGREE that anyone should not put materialistic factors before their own identity and self-dignity,

You say that, but then you put forward contradictory views.

Tom, that is not first-hand evidence. Show me an interview or personal memoir where he has evidently shown complete disregard for his nationality (despite playing for Macedonia) and then I'll be convinced.

Don’t be silly EM and have a good think about what it is people are actually saying here. Trickovski has a contract with APOEL which is listing him as a player from FYROM. Are you claiming that Trickovski is unaware of this? Are you going to put up the same stupid defence you did for Todor Petrov? Grow up mate.

I know of Macedonians in Australia whose children hate them because they neglected their families for decades in pursuit of the cause. I know others who have literally spent their life savings for the same. I know of some who have given up highly paid careers to pursue the cause. I know of others who have been on the receiving end of abuse and threats of death and violence for years. And now you come along and pretend that people like Trickovski might be secretly doing something they’re not in an attempt to apologise for the death by a thousand cuts of the Macedonian people that they are participating in. You need to seriously review some of your ideological positions. There are no more excuses for people like Trickovski who put personal gain above the freedom and human rights of the rest of us.

Your comments could be considered extremely defamatory.

Maybe in your fantasy world.

[Voltron]

I know im out of my league here. But just want to mention that in soccer your age definitly limits you like United mentioned. My brother was here in Greece for two years trying to get on a professional league, he was 22 yrs old at the time. Basically you pretty much have to be on a good team by 24 or else the dream is pretty much over. So I think most of the people here should consider this. Its not like any other profession where you have time to pick and choose. Your age definitly limits your options. So politics aside, they made a decision and at the end of the day Im sure they put all the pros and cons on the table. Common sense prevailed.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I agree with maintaining self-respect and protecting ones' identity, and I find it quite uncomfortable to see a Macedonian playing in a Greek Cypriot team, yet how does that warrant individuals to immediately label him and other Macedonians as sell-outs, with no evidence whatsoever. He is playing for a club, not a country.

When it comes to money over his identity, he is selling out. Period. If you agree with maintaining self-respect and the protection of our identity like you claim, then stop contradicting yourself, start showing some solid consistency, and don't try to carry the torch for people who have chosen not to do it themselves.

Macedonian, but as far as I'm aware, the name of our country is formally recognised as the 'Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia.'

Like Vangelovski already pointed out, the comparison is ludicrous.

I'd rather maintain my dignity than chase the dollar signs, but that's easy for anyone to say until the opportunity is presented to them.

Are you suggesting that you could become opportunistic and lose your integrity should the price be right? Or are you making excuses for his lack of integrity?

My 'counter-assumption' is based on the fact that you 'assume' he was provided with viable alternatives...........

It is reasonable to assume there would be other options if he really is that good, because it's not only clubs from Cyprus that are scouting in Macedonia.

........that would ensure a development process which is on par or even surpasses that of his current club.

I never said that. Do me a favour and stop making things up as you go along. His development as a player doesn't only rely on which club he plays for.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Common sense prevailed.

Would you play for a club in a country where your identity was openly and officially disrespected? Even a peanut like you would probably have more self-respect. Or perhaps not.

[Voltron]

Would you play for a club in a country where your identity was openly and officially disrespected? Even a peanut like you would probably have more self-respect. Or perhaps not.

Yes, I would. You put 6 figures or more on the table and the ability to transfer to bigger and better teams i wouldnt think twice about it. We all have to start somewhere. My parents were immigrants in the US, if you think none of the immigrants took cheap shots then I am at a loss of words. You got to suck it up, man it out and make the best for yourself. I think a lot of hard talk is being put up, but its a differnt story when you got money and security staring you in your face. Besides if this guy had other options, dont you think he would of taken it ?

On a side note, If my country was called Athens, instead of Greece I dont think I would turn down a lucrative career over it. Thats there problem.

[EgejskaMakedonia]

You have done so by trying to compare the actions of Trickovski and others like him with Australian Macedonians. The circumstances under which Trickovski went to play for a Greek team as someone from FYROM are not in any universe comparable to the circumstances of over 86,000 Australian Macedonians.

You say that, but then you put forward contradictory views.

Don’t be silly EM and have a good think about what it is people are actually saying here. Trickovski has a contract with APOEL which is listing him as a player from FYROM. Are you claiming that Trickovski is unaware of this? Are you going to put up the same stupid defence you did for Todor Petrov? Grow up mate.

Maybe you're right, they may be sell-outs, but what warrants you the right to label individuals you have never met on a personal level. You can assume all you want, but until you can actually provide some 'real' first-hand evidence, I don't see how it is possibly fair to accuse people of this, that and the other.

I know of Macedonians in Australia whose children hate them because they neglected their families for decades in pursuit of the cause. I know others who have literally spent their life savings for the same. I know of some who have given up highly paid careers to pursue the cause. I know of others who have been on the receiving end of abuse and threats of death and violence for years. And now you come along and pretend that people like Trickovski might be secretly doing something they’re not in an attempt to apologise for the death by a thousand cuts of the Macedonian people that they are participating in. You need to seriously review some of your ideological positions. There are no more excuses for people like Trickovski who put personal gain above the freedom and human rights of the rest of us.

I don't dispute your anecdotal evidence, but I never discredited people who work tirelessly for the Macedonian cause. Your first example is interesting. Pursuing an ongoing cause is admirable, but doing so at the expense of ones' family is definitely questionable. However, I don't doubt for a second the efforts of these people, you're simply putting words into my mouth and have taken the comparison out of its initial intention. Trickovski probably isn't actively heightening the Macedonian cause in Cyprus, but I cannot say that with full confidence, and neither should you.

When it comes to money over his identity, he is selling out. Period. If you agree with maintaining self-respect and the protection of our identity like you claim, then stop contradicting yourself, start showing some solid consistency, and don't try to carry the torch for people who have chosen not to do it themselves.

So your prepared to label all Macedonians in Greece and Cyprus who are pursuing a career as sellouts because the country does not recognise them as Macedonian? I'm not carrying any torch on behalf of these individuals, I'm simply pushing the notion of 'you can't judge a book by its cover.' Who are you to speak on behalf of all these people and label them as sellouts?

Like Vangelovski already pointed out, the comparison is ludicrous.

So let's say a Macedonian emigrated to Australia and became an Australian citizen. They were then chosen to play for the Socceroos (national soccer team) yet their country of birth is listed as being 'FYR Macedonia' which is the official stance of the Australian government. Are they a sellout? I don't see how this example is ludicrous.

Are you suggesting that you could become opportunistic and lose your integrity should the price be right? Or are you making excuses for his lack of integrity?

If he has indeed chosen money over self-respect and dignity then I agree with you. My position is more based on the fact that some people here find it acceptable to label Macedonians as sellouts and anti-Macedonian with the blink of an eye. If they are indeed sellouts, then so be it, but the evidence in this thread is not convincing at all. A few of you mentioned other possible leagues he could have entered, so wouldn't some research be more appropriate before accusations are thrown around?

It is reasonable to assume there would be other options if he really is that good, because it's not only clubs from Cyprus that are scouting in Macedonia.

You're probably right, but his skills and qualities are far more likely to develop under a strong team, as opposed to playing in the Macedonian league for peanuts. Does this mean when he transfers clubs again to somewhere other than Greece or Cyprus he automatically is accepted as a Macedonian again? Why did Macedonian players play for Yugoslavia?