Ventilator

[Vangelovski]

Point where(quote me) I used that photo or used the 'war theory' and later I will only repeat myself because you seems to be making your own fictious conclussions in order to be able to put your assumptions which in this case are 99% wrong.

If you remain dumbdeaf and donkey stubborn just for the sake of it there is no further purpose in discussion with you.

Bratot,

You have me eating humble pie - I confused you for Chento and his baby re the 'war' theory. My most sincere apologies.

However, that in no way changes my views that the Interim Accord imposed the ventilator on us. We were forced to change our flag through an Accord designed to destroy our freedom and identity. That is what the ventilator symbolises.

Free choice is using the flag that we freely choose on our own initiative. Not some flag that was hastily adopted without debate in order to appease our oppressors, disconnect us from our ancient heritage and eliminate our sovereignty.


Bill77,

No, there is absolutely NOTHING in the Interim Accord that is good for Macedonia. Perhaps you should read it? If you have, and you feel that it benefits Macedonia, perhaps you can tell us why?

[Vangelovski]

The circumstances which instigated and led to the adoption of the new flag were disgraceful. We all agree.

The old flag should be reinstated at the very first opportunity. We all agree.

We don't have to respect, accept or like the new flag, but logic and common sense requires us to acknowledge the reality of our current situation, because at this point in time, it is the official flag of the Macedonian state. Rather than discussing strategies about how we can bring about a change so the old flag is reinstated, people are only complaining about the new flag and almost accusing others of being against the Macedonian Cause for not 'hating' it as much as they do.

Does anybody here have a realistic suggestion on how to go about having the old flag reinstated, and what needs to be done to make this happen?

SoM,

I have a realistic suggestion - in order to make change, we need to believe in that change. If we "respect" the ventilator, why change it? Who has ever changed or revolted against something they "respect"?

[julie]

Vangelovski, am sorry, but an acceptance of the current flag does not constitute an acceptance of the Interim Accord.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Vangelovski,

I specifically made the point that we don't need to 'respect' it, but we do need to acknowledge reality. I am asking the question, not anybody else. Please go forth and make your realistic suggestion as per my previous post. I would like to see some genuine attempts.

[Vangelovski]

Vangelovski, am sorry, but an acceptance of the current flag does not constitute an acceptance of the Interim Accord.

Julie, the ventilator came out of the Interim Accord - its an effective tool in achieving what Greece wants. How can you accept a key element of the Interim Accord, and then claim that you don't accept the Interim Accord? The Accord has 5-6 key components designed to destroy our freedom and identity - the ventilator is one of them.

[Bill77]

Bratot,

Besides all your posts justifying the ventilator because Macedonia happened to go to war after it had the ventilator imposed on it, you used photo's of dead soldiers from 2001 to make your point - that's your war theory - that somehow the treasonous acceptance of flag changes (designed specifically to deny us any connection with the ancient Macedonians and our lineage) is now acceptable because the brave men that fought to defend fellow Macedonians were forced to wear the ventilator by our own government. Those SAME soldiers formed DOSTOINSTVO and REJECTED the ventilator and FREELY adopted the SONCE as their symbol.

It was i that posted it not Bratot. But hey.... ive made plenty of these wronfuly acusing someone mistakes aswell and i am sure i will do it again, But i will try hard to avoid it. lol

Why i posted it? i took offence to people being labeled as some sort of unpatriotic, simply because they have no issues or think there are more important issues than the design of the National flag (which was a Macedonian Creation and not givan to us). I understand where you are coming from regarding we were forced into a Interim Accord. It sucks that we were preasured and dictated to. But if we are to rip up the accord today, and create a new one under our terms, would there be anything in this curent accord you would keep or add to the new one? If you are honest enough to admit it, i am sure there is. In this case, are you accepting the Accord ?

I also am sick of it being called a "ventilator" when clearly its the "SUN" and thats what it was officialy designed to be. If you want people to take you serious, if you want people to clearly understand where you are coming from, stop being so negetive towards the design. Call it what it realy is, a "sun". I personaly don't know what your issue is and get confused on how to answer you. Is it the design or is it becuase its part of the accord. They are two seperate arguments. Idealy, the Greeks should know that we kept the sun symbol on our flag and that they are to stupid to realise this. But calling it a ventilator, is not only a incorect description, but its making them (Greece) satisfied.

WHY IS IT THAT THE VERY MEN WHO FOUGHT THAT WAR REJECT THE VENTILATOR, YET YOU USE THEM AS A JUSTIFICATION TO ACCEPT THE TREASON THEY STRUGGLE AGAINST??

I am sure there are also Men that don't have issues. But i am open to accept what you say to be true if you can proove that every veteran rejects it. Also i am not trying to justify anything. Again you are bordering calling the family of the fallen soldiers as treasonous. Don't tell me the government forced the flag to be draped on there coffins. I am sure they had no issue with it and possibly had some sort of pride. If that was one of my family members lying in the casket and i felt the way you fell, i would rip it off and no government can impose it on me especialy during this time of grief.

[Vangelovski]

Vangelovski,

I specifically made the point that we don't need to 'respect' it, but we do need to acknowledge reality. I am asking the question, not anybody else. Please go forth and make your realistic suggestion as per my previous post. I would like to see some genuine attempts.

If we want to reverse what was implemented as a result of the Interim Accord (including the ventilator), then we need to win our own people over to the idea that the Interim Accord and everything that came out of it is treason and needs to be reversed. That is a first step.

But if people "respect" the ventilator, they are only priming themselves for further capitulations.

[Soldier of Macedon]

If we want to reverse what was implemented as a result of the Interim Accord (including the ventilator), then we need to win our own people over to the idea that the Interim Accord and everything that came out of it is treason and needs to be reversed. That is a first step.

Ok. How can we make the first step? What's required to get this campaign in motion? Who needs to be engaged and work as key players?

[Vangelovski]

Bill77,

You obviously have no idea what the Interim Accord is. What you just wrote about it shows me that you have neither read it, nor understand its implications, nor understand how international agreements are generally made or according to which principles.

Keep wrapping yourself in the ventilator - at least we know where people stand that way.

[Bill77]

Does anybody here have a realistic suggestion on how to go about having the old flag reinstated, and what needs to be done to make this happen?

We cant rock the boat any more SOM. Its all got to do with timing. Most important issue is, our Name (Macedonia). Once this is sorted out and officialy accepted, then we can go ahead with going back to the original flag. We can't open to many fronts in this war.

Bill77,

No, there is absolutely NOTHING in the Interim Accord that is good for Macedonia. Perhaps you should read it? If you have, and you feel that it benefits Macedonia, perhaps you can tell us why?

Vangelovski, I have read it and it was only yesturday. In fact you posted it on another thread. But for some strange reason, i have searched for it 10 minutes ago and can no longer find it in any thread. i had plans to use it in my previous post. I have no problems giving my opinion on a few acceptable articals but i would need your help or anyone else in locating it again.

[Vangelovski]

Ok. How can we make the first step? What's required to get this campaign in motion? Who needs to be engaged and work as key players?

SoM,

It all starts as an idea and each and every individual being convinced of the merits of that idea. You have the perfect mechanism right here - a website and forum visited by literaly hundreds of well-meaning Macedonians every day.

Speak out against the Interim Accord (and all its destructive time bombs such as the ventilator) and spread the message from here, from today.

[Vangelovski]

Bill77,

Just for you.

Key Articles in the Interim Accord which Undermine Macedonian Sovereignty

a) Macedonia agrees to negotiate over its name (Article 5);

b) Macedonia agrees to renounce all claims to its ethnic/historic territory and agrees NOT to pursue the rights of Macedonians not only in Greece but in ANY OTHER STATE (Article 6);

c) Macedonia agrees to renounce the Sonce as its national symbol AND any other symbols that Greece considers to be part of its historic or cultural heritage (Article 7);

d) Macedonia agrees to only enter international organisations under FYROM (Article 11); and

e) Macedonia agrees that the two parties will not “resolve” the name dispute through the International Court of Justice – i.e., Igor Janev’s proposal (Article 21).

[Bill77]

OK, theres no way of comunicating with you. Its fine with me. Peace

[julie]

Chill pills, peace out dudes.

Lets concentrate on the things that we can do to make a difference. Lets agree to disagree. We are debating something that is emotive to us all.
I prefer our old flag. However, i am not going to spit on the new one. It is about respect.

And no Vangelovski. I was not happy about the flag, that upset me. However, the soldiers that serve us have the new flag emblazed on their uniforms. And if this is what it takes for us to keep our Macedonian name, then fine.
I am not open to negotiating my name. I would negotiate by being armed to the hilt. my way.
I am offended that because I have acceptance with the new flag (as much as I prefer the old one) that you state I accept all the points within the Interim Accord.

you are a fierce Macedonian warrior, and I love that in my people, but sometimes it can be a bit much.

Guys, we are all here for one thing, and that is I can see the passion and the love of my people, that we need to accept some things, that can be changed down the track. For now, am praying that Macedonia wakes up and smells the roses, to stop negotiating and stamp her foot in anger and say NO fark off to the EU, the only country in the world that is being forced to change something for a bunch of bankrupt history stealing DNA tested bunch of baboons that have nothing without our beautiful Macedonian heritage and land, that have nothing without Aegean - they would starve to death without Macedonian soil with their rocky shitty nothing land.

And this "ventilator" business - well, Macedonia conceded to gain independence, anyway that was my understanding of it,
Zastaneto se smeat Grtsite i dushmanite so nas, nie sami se jadime zhivi, so raboti shto nishto nemozhime vaka da uspeyeme so karayne. Se sitaat tie, nashite dushmani da chituvat vaka.

Treba da doydime do edno razbiranie.
Site tuka sme poveketo Makedontsi
Gorlivi Makedonsti, ayde, treba chovek nekako da sme sobireme zaednichki, da se poshtovame, site isto nemame da mislime, zatoa Gospod ne napravi tseli inakvi, treba da imame barem edno poshtavynye.

Napred Makedonia - that is what we all have in common, my beloved brothers and sisters

[Bill77]

well said Sis

Lets move on to more important issues.