Ventilator

[Vangelovski]

Aleksandrov & Vangelovski, if the new flag after the interim accord was chosen to be the lion or variant of, would you have opposed it with the same vigor as the new flag?

It wasn't freely chosen that is the point, and yes, I would have for the fact that it would not have been freely chosen either.

[TrueMacedonian]

You are doing their bidding by waving the flag they imposed on our state and legitimizing the act (Interim Accord) of abuse of our human rights and sovereignty, of which that flag is a central element.

But THEY did not impose this particular Macedonian symbol on us. And until some facts are crystal clear I wouldn't jump all over it and state that the flag was just "made up". We're doing them a favor by

a) not becoming pro-active in retaining the original flag of the Republic of Macedonia.
b) by despising our own national symbol today which shows them we're not at all in unison.

Whatever the circumstances this is the flag of the Republic of Macedonia. Until the Macedonians in Macedonia decide to change that themselves and get their asses together in unison to do it. Unfortunately they won't and I am sure we all know that to be the case.

[Vangelovski]

But THEY did not impose this particular Macedonian symbol on us. And until some facts are crystal clear I wouldn't jump all over it and state that the flag was just "made up". We're doing them a favor by

a) not becoming pro-active in retaining the original flag of the Republic of Macedonia.
b) by despising our own national symbol today which shows them we're not at all in unison.

Whatever the circumstances this is the flag of the Republic of Macedonia. Until the Macedonians in Macedonia decide to change that themselves and get their asses together in unison to do it. Unfortunately they won't and I am sure we all know that to be the case.

TM, why dont' you apply this same logic to FYROM? Why not accept it as is for international use? What you're saying is that essentially you support the Interim Accord. It exists, and until someone changes it for us, it is legitimate and we should just accept it.

[TrueMacedonian]

TM, the question is really "was the 16 ray symbol chosen by Macedonians without being under duress and did it form an unrestricted expression of their identity?". The new symbol was embraced under duress and can never be regarded as a symbol of self-expression. Irrespective of its historical significance.

I understand RTG. And everyone should rightfully be upset that the 16 ray symbol was taken away from us. Personally, as I stated before, it is a symbol that represents Macedonia and the Macedonians. But so is this flag irregardless of what the assumptions are. There are so many arguements for both sides, but what are Macedonians in Macedonia doing to regain the old flag back? Nishto. That's what. And now we spit on the new flag because some of us feel that it represents all that is wrong and evil. But to spit on it makes us no better.

[TrueMacedonian]

TM, why dont' you apply this same logic to FYROM? Why not accept it as is for international use? What you're saying is that essentially you support the Interim Accord. It exists, and until someone changes it for us, it is legitimate and we should just accept it.

The so-called "name issue" is an unfortunate precedent no other nation on earth has ever had to deal with. But as I stated before the people within the Republic of Macedonia call there nation as such and they recognize the new flag as the symbol of this nation irregardless of the circumstances involved(and yes there are many within the Republic who only refer to the 16 ray). But the Macedonians have done nothing to get the 16 ray symbol back. Now are we going to just play it off that they are innocent by-standers? Or that they too have a responsibility on how their country functions?

[osiris]

we were forced to abandon our first choice and we still managed to come up with a good looking symbol that incorporates the sun and also existed s a significant and meaningful symbol in ancient times.

why it is being denigrated is incomprehensible to me, our anger should be directed at the forces who made us change in the place and not in the nature of the current flag, i think calling it the ventilator is shameful.

the macedonian people who changed the old flag didnt betray it on a whim or through lack of patriotism they did it under duress and who felt the very existence of our emerging nation was at stake.

i dont know what would have happened if they held firm and didnt accept the changes forced upon them by greece and her western backers maybe the blockade would still be in force or a civil war would be raging.

that was what many of politicians feared and acted to prevent.

[Vangelovski]

The so-called "name issue" is an unfortunate precedent no other nation on earth has ever had to deal with. But as I stated before the people within the Republic of Macedonia call there nation as such and they recognize the new flag as the symbol of this nation irregardless of the circumstances involved(and yes there are many within the Republic who only refer to the 16 ray). But the Macedonians have done nothing to get the 16 ray symbol back. Now are we going to just play it off that they are innocent by-standers? Or that they too have a responsibility on how their country functions?

TM,

I'm not sure what your point is any longer. No matter how much you try to excuse it, you cannot seperate the Interim Accord - its a package deal. You cannot say that one capitulation is acceptable, yet another is not. You either accept or reject the entire Accord.

Further, I'm still waiting for someone to explain how one symbol, derived from a treasonous accord is acceptable, while another symbol, derived from the same treasonous accord is unacceptable?

There was some talk about "war" magically purifying one symbol, though not the other, however, noone was able to explain HOW or WHY?

[Vangelovski]

we were forced to abandon our first choice and we still managed to come up with a good looking symbol that incorporates the sun and also existed s a significant and meaningful symbol in ancient times.

why it is being denigrated is incomprehensible to me, our anger should be directed at the forces who made us change in the place and not in the nature of the current flag, i think calling it the ventilator is shameful.

the macedonian people who changed the old flag didnt betray it on a whim or through lack of patriotism they did it under duress and who felt the very existence of our emerging nation was at stake.

i dont know what would have happened if they held firm and didnt accept the changes forced upon them by greece and her western backers maybe the blockade would still be in force or a civil war would be raging.

that was what many of politicians feared and acted to prevent.

Osiris,

You're suprising me - you've just argued that the Interim Accord was a necessary evil. I would have expected that from Buktop, not from you. If you argue that for the flag, then you're arguing the same for the name, the constitution and the Accords stipulation to cease support for the Macedonians in Aegean (and all other countries).

[Volk]

i think calling it the ventilator is shameful.

Agreed.

I still however cannot bring myself to wave the new flag, never have and probably never will.

The way it was brought about is revolting and in my eyes equivalent to rape.

[aleksandrov]

You're being a little hasty. I asked you a question and you revert one back to me. That's not answering the question. Can you tell me when the 16 ray symbol was used as a Macedonian symbol after antiquity? I'll answer your question when you answer mine first. I hope I'm not detracting too much.

There is nothing hasty about pointing out the logical flaws in your reasoning and asking you to focus on the fundamental considerations.

The fundamental considerations, at least from my perspective (and it was my position that you were questioning), are:

1. The only Macedonian national flag that I can respect is one that symbolizes freedom and sovereignty for the Macedonian people.

2. The 16-ray flag was FREELY adopted by Macedonian organizations worldwide as a symbol of an autochthonous Macedonian nation, with ancient roots in Macedonia. It was later FREELY adopted by the legislature of a sovereign Macedonian state.

3. The 'ventilator' flag was COERCIVELY IMPOSED in an act of denial of the FREE self-determination and sovereignty of the Macedonian people, including denial of the right of the Macedonian people to FREELY preserve and promulgate their Macedonian identity and their historical and cultural heritage, and to make SOVEREIGN decisions about their modern national symbols. The 'ventilator' flag therefore represents OPPRESSION and SUBSERVIENCE, as opposed to FREEDOM and SOVEREIGNTY. As such, it is an antithesis to the flag it replaced. Given the motivations behind its imposition, its substantive symbolism would be the same regardless of its aesthetic form i.e. regardless of whether any archeological artifacts with a similar design have been dug up before or after its imposition, either in Macedonia, India, Egypt, Australia, America or on the moon.

4. To anyone who says that by rejecting the flag of OPPRESSION and SUBSERVIENCE I am disrespecting unknown soldiers who fought under it, I say most of those soldiers are still alive, so let them speak for themselves. I also say that by accepting the flag of OPPRESSION and SUBSERVIENCE, you are disrespecting the legacy of generations of Macedonians who voluntarily fought against OPPRESSION and SUBSERVIENCE, under the motto "LIBERTY OR DEATH". Those liberation fighters are not alive to speak for themselves, but they have left a legacy of uncompromising dedication to freedom that I choose to do my best to live up to, regardless of whether any state, politician, friend, family member, soldier or cheerleader likes it or not.

The historical question you ask about the use of the 16-ray Sun between antiquity and now is one that Greeks commonly ask. It has been answered many times by people more qualified than me. Do some critical research into that if you wish, but don't let it obscure your vision of the most fundamental issues concerning the modern flag.

[Vangelovski]

Agreed.

I still however cannot bring myself to wave the new flag, never have and probably never will.

The way it was brought about is revolting and in my eyes equivalent to rape.

Your calling it rape (which I agree with), but you think its too harsh to call it a ventilator????

[aleksandrov]

Agreed.

I still however cannot bring myself to wave the new flag, never have and probably never will.

The way it was brought about is revolting and in my eyes equivalent to rape.

When I think about it carefully, I think calling it a 'ventilator' is a shameful understatement. I think we should try to consistently call it something like the FLAG OF OPPRESSION AND SUBSERVIENCE.

[osiris]

vangelovski dont you think an national identity is more important than a national flag.

i do and i also believe sometimes a step back in war or politics can lead ultimately to victory.

[Vangelovski]

vangelovski dont you think an national identity is more important than a national flag.

i do and i also believe sometimes a step back in war or politics can lead ultimately to victory.

Now your scaring me. A name and flag are both equally important symbols of that national identity. Why is it that one of those essential symbols can be thrown by the wayside and the other not? Why one symbol and not the other? Is your name more important to you than your face? Or are they equally important?

[TrueMacedonian]

TM,

I'm not sure what your point is any longer. No matter how much you try to excuse it, you cannot seperate the Interim Accord - its a package deal. You cannot say that one capitulation is acceptable, yet another is not. You either accept or reject the entire Accord.

Further, I'm still waiting for someone to explain how one symbol, derived from a treasonous accord is acceptable, while another symbol, derived from the same treasonous accord is unacceptable?

There was some talk about "war" magically purifying one symbol, though not the other, however, noone was able to explain HOW or WHY?

Vangelovski it was never acceptable that the original flag was removed. I do know this and feel it was wrong to do. However the Macedonians themselves have done nothing at all to try and regain the old flag. This must be acknowledged because ultimately a government is only as good as long as the people have its back. If the Macedonians in the Republic of Macedonia don't like this new flag then they should protest in all the cities they reside in and have their government do their bidding. But this isn't the case. And you can tell me about the Interim Agreement all you want but the fact is that the people are not doing anything to regain the old flag which shows is interpretted to the rest of the world that they acknowledge this new flag as a symbol for their nation, which they call the Republic of Macedonia. This is why it is acceptable.