Ventilator

[TrueMacedonian]

The point is it was FREELY resurrected and not imposed.

I know. And that is all fine and true. But when was it last used to represent the Macedonian people after antiquity? And was it ever a symbol that represented Macedonians?

[TrueMacedonian]

FYROM represents Macedonia internationally - why do you spit on that symbol and not the ventilator? What is the difference between the two symbols?

Because irregardless of who defines the Republic of Macedonia as fyrom the working government, institutions, and most importantly the people recognize their country as the Republic of Macedonia. They did have the rug pulled out from under them with the flag. But why are we doing the bidding of our neighbors by spitting on our own flag?

[aleksandrov]

I know who named Macedonia. But I want your definition of the word indigenous. Not what the accord states.

In a nutshell, it's a Macedonian cultural, ethnic and national identity that claims no other nation/ethnic group as its originator and no other land as its homeland, but Macedonia and the Macedonian people (community/ethnic group/nation) whose homeland it has been since it was first named after them (obviously without selective breeding for purity of bloodline, which not even the Australian Aboriginals, who were isolated from the rest of the world until a couple of hundred years ago, can claim). It is pretty self-evident in the Interim Accord that this is what its creators set out to deny or suppress.

But I will no longer pursue this line of argument with you on this thread, as it is detracting attention away from issues that are of much more fundamental relevance to a modern flag, those issues being the universal concepts of freedom and sovereignty. In this regard, I find that the 16-ray Sun flag, as the antithesis to the 'ventilator' flag of oppression and subservience, has much stronger symbolism today than it did prior to being desecrated by our foreign and domestic oppressors, with the Interim Accord.

[osiris]

the ancient macedonian flag was a dead symbol for most macedonians for most of our recorded history many of us didnt even know of its existence whereas our name has been used as some form of identifier throughout our history.
if illinden had been successful and a macedonian state was established the 16 ray flag would not be an issue now, flags are not as important as we are making them out to be on this thread.

[indigen]

the symbols of pagan antiquity were not used in the christian world.

Don't bet your life on it, Osiris, or you will lose it! The eight-ray Macedonian Sun was incorporated into the Christian iconography and can be seen all over the place. Sixteen-ray sun symbols are also used as decoration and can be found in a number of Macedonian churches.

[TrueMacedonian]

Don't bet your life on it, Osiris, or you will lose it! The eight-ray Macedonian Sun was incorporated into the Christian iconography and can be seen all over the place. Sixteen-ray sun symbols are also used as decoration and can be found in a number of Macedonian churches.

For once I have to agree with indigen.

[osiris]

yes you are right indigen i was wrong

[indigen]

Newsgroups: bit.listserv.makedon
From: Slavko Mangovski
Date: 1995/09/08
Subject: Interests or who gets what

The new Graeco-Macedonian (actually Graeco-"fyromian") "friendship" treaty
merits thorough analysys because of its monumental significance for the
Macedonian nation. The treaty threatens a definite split among the
Macedonians themselves so we have to see
who gets what from it and whose interests are best served.

The EU
Benefits:
Clear benefit and a loud "sigh!"
Less worries for the Balkans.
No need to prosecute Greece because of the embargo and therefore liberation
from a major embaressement.
Losses: none.

USA
Benefits:
Clear benefit and a loud "sigh!
Less worries for the Balkans.
Great satisfaction for the Greek lobby and therefore a lot of votes for Clinton.
Losses: none.

GREECE
Major benefit.
Almost maximum demands met.

Sense of accomplishment and new national pride.

Clear road for placing the Macedonian Sun on it's flag and becoming the legitimate heir of ancient Macedonia and everything Macedonian.

With it's identity destroyed the Macedonian minority is no longer a problem.

The name issue to be discussed "in the future" but excellent chances of winning again.

Possibility to re-introduce the embargo at any time to make it's argument more convincing.

Absolute vindication of its stands in front of the international public.

Economic access to MK's territory.

Revival of the Northern Greece economy.

Losses: none.

MK
Benefits:
Possibility to go on vacation and shopping to Greece but without using the
passport and first applying for visa (will we have again the famous lines
in front of the Greek consulate in Skopje with people spending the night in
order to be among the first to
apply?)
Posibility of the exporters to export through Solun therefore saving money.
Gaining access to various international bodies and organizations under the
name FYROM (somebody will have to tell us what the benefits will be).
Appearance of Greek products in our shops.
Obtaining loans from foreign countries and organizations (which will have
to be repaid with interest) with wide misuse by the somewhat corrupt
government.
Economic developement (similar to Bulgaria and Albania which *DO* have
access to the Solun port).

Losses:
Loss of our identity.

Without ancient Macedonian heritage automatic acquring of the status of "Slavs from Macedonia" or Slavomacedonians, as presently in Australia.

Global introduction of the "Australian solution" and international pressure on Greece to yield and accept the derivative of the name "Macedonia" i.e. "Slavomacedonia."

Definite split among the Macedonians and start of ferocious infighting further weakening the nation.

Various kinds of bugaromans, serbomans, greacomans, yugomans etc. emboldened by the new developements.

I invite others to contribute to the list so that we can make a complete
analysys. We are all intelligent and rational people and should act in our
best interests otherwise we risk being called idiots.

I wrote the above in English in the hope of reaching a larger number of
Macedonians.

Slavko
http://groups.google.com.au/group/bi...bd9ac3fa?hl=en

Perhaps we should take some of the above into consideration.

[aleksandrov]

... But why are we doing the bidding of our neighbors by spitting on our own flag?

You are doing their bidding by waving the flag they imposed on our state and legitimizing the act (Interim Accord) of abuse of our human rights and sovereignty, of which that flag is a central element.

[Vangelovski]

I know. And that is all fine and true. But when was it last used to represent the Macedonian people after antiquity? And was it ever a symbol that represented Macedonians?

What's the difference? If tomorrow the Macedonian people (by their own initiative) freely chose to put the piperka on their flag, who cares when it was ever used before? The point is it was FREELY CHOSEN.

P.S. I would support the piperka any day

[Vangelovski]

Because irregardless of who defines the Republic of Macedonia as fyrom the working government, institutions, and most importantly the people recognize their country as the Republic of Macedonia. They did have the rug pulled out from under them with the flag. But why are we doing the bidding of our neighbors by spitting on our own flag?

We are doing the bidding of our neighbours by using the ventilator...remember the Interim Accord. This is exactly what Greece wants - they want us to forget our past and forget about freely choosing for ourselves. That was the entire point of the Interim Accord. From some of the posts on here, it seems that Greece has been quite successful.

[TrueMacedonian]

In a nutshell, it's a Macedonian cultural, ethnic and national identity that claims no other nation/ethnic group as its originator and no other land as its homeland, but Macedonia and the Macedonian people (community/ethnic group/nation) whose homeland it has been since it was first named after them (obviously without selective breeding for purity of bloodline, which not even the Australian Aboriginals, who were isolated from the rest of the world until a couple of hundred years ago, can claim). It is pretty self-evident in the Interim Accord that this is what its creators set out to deny or suppress.

But I will no longer pursue this line of argument with you on this thread, as it is detracting attention away from issues that are of much more fundamental relevance to a modern flag, those issues being the universal concepts of freedom and sovereignty. In this regard, I find that the 16-ray Sun flag, as the antithesis to the 'ventilator' flag of oppression and subservience, has much stronger symbolism today than it did prior to being desecrated by our foreign and domestic oppressors, with the Interim Accord.

Good definition. And for what it's worth the continuation of the name Macedonia, albeit officially and un-officially (no need to get into the whole definition of Nation and State again please) has been in existance for a very long time. But what about the 16 ray symbol as a flag representing the Macedonian people after antiquity? And was it ever a symbol that represented the Macedonian people in antiquity? Or are we assuming this be the case? Is this a modern interpretation of the 16 ray flag?

[Risto the Great]

TM, the question is really "was the 16 ray symbol chosen by Macedonians without being under duress and did it form an unrestricted expression of their identity?". The new symbol was embraced under duress and can never be regarded as a symbol of self-expression. Irrespective of its historical significance.

[indigen]

the ancient macedonian flag was a dead symbol for most macedonians for most of our recorded history many of us didnt even know of its existence whereas our name has been used as some form of identifier throughout our history.
if illinden had been successful and a macedonian state was established the 16 ray flag would not be an issue now, flags are not as important as we are making them out to be on this thread.

Ancient Macedonians have always played a part in our national revival and it is/was only NATURAL to adopt the Macedonian Sun when it was widely publicised in 1978 as being a national symbol of the Ancient Macedonian STATE. Similarly, archaeological discoveries in China's north-west regions of europeid mummies have caused some of them to end up as national symbols for some non-Han peoples in recent years, too.

[Volk]

Aleksandrov & Vangelovski, if the new flag after the interim accord was chosen to be the lion or variant of, would you have opposed it with the same vigor as the new flag?