Ventilator

[TrueMacedonian]

TM,

I've read a lot of BS articles come out of Macedonia, but where is the evidence? Where is this rock? Is there at least a picture?

Click the link. Super impose the picture. You'll see it. Also, there are 100,000 of these things in Macedonia. If Aleksovski is lying about that then shame on the Macedonian Archaeological Ramkovists for fooling us.

[TrueMacedonian]

Here's another link - http://www.unet.com.mk/rockart/prva.htm

[TrueMacedonian]

Here's Aleksovski's email address - [email protected]

[Vangelovski]

TM,

Super impose the picture? Why don't I just super impose a picture of myself and claim I'm 10,000 years old?

In the last link you sent me the pictures are not working - maybe its my work computer. I will try viewing them at home as well. Or maybe the site is broken?

Personally, I have no faith in Macedonian scholars - all but one or two have shown themselves to be very shoddy and that is the reason they are ignored by the rest of the world. I have had a great deal of experience with them myself while undertaking my PhD.

Osiris, the only ancient Macedonian coins I've seen are ones with the sonce on them. If you have a picture, please post here or email it to me.

[aleksandrov]

Who says the new flag isn't indigenous to the Macedonian land?

Indigenous to the Macedonian "land"? DUI and DPA could fit that category too.

Please read the Interim Accord and think about what indigenous Macedonian symbols mean in the relevant context. The whole Accord is based on denial of the existence of the indigenous Macedonian ethnicity (unless you consider a Macedonian ethnicity that was allegedly artificially created after WWII as the indigenous Macedonian ethnicity). The replacement of the previous flag with the 'ventilator' is a central product of that Accord. It was created with the express purpose of distancing our state from any claims to the ancient cultural or symbolic roots that Greece claims we have 'stolen'. That's the REALITY. Feel-good historical revisionism won't change it, unless you choose to live in a bubble.

[osiris]

there is one particular rock that looks virtually like the new flag.

the only argument is that we were forced to change in the first place and as such its not our first choice, but the current one is also our choice and we can belittle it as much as we want but it serves no purpose.

in my opinion as a symbol its much stronger and more attractive than the old one.

[TrueMacedonian]

Vangelovski here's something of a bio on Alekovski. http://www.archaeomythology.org/even...rb04_bios.html

Dusko Aleksovski, Ph.D. studied philology and later archaeology at the University of St. Cyril and Methodius in Skopje, Macedonia, and completed his doctorate in philology at Franche Compte-Besancon-France University in 1981. He studied excavation methods in Martigny, Switzerland and became an archaeological researcher in 1986. After discovering rock art in the Republic of Macedonia in 1991, he created the Macedonian Rock Art Research Centre in 1992 and is the founder and director of the World Rock Art Academy in Skopje. Since 1991, Dr. Aleksovski has discovered 1126 Rock Art sites with more than one million rock art engravings and has written and lectured widely on this theme. His papers include: “Recherches de l' Art Rupestre de la Republique Macedoine” (Bollettino del Centro Studi e Museo d' Arte Preistorica di Pinerolo, Italy, Anni V-VI no. 7-8 (1991-1992); and “La signification des cupules a la lumiere de nouvelles decouvertes,” Bollettino del Centro Camuno di Studi Preistorici, vol. XXXI-XXXII (1999).


I can understand the hesitation to accept this. Believe me. But the claim he is making would largely destroy his reputation if he was lying so we should take that into consideration as well.

[aleksandrov]

The attempts to post-justify the flag of anti-Macedonian oppression and capitulation by associating it with any archeological artifacts found in Macedonia, which were not a consideration in the adoption of the flag, are as logical as trying to justify parading with Nazi flags on the grounds that the Swastika is a symbol of Hinduism, Budhism or Jainism ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika).

[TrueMacedonian]

Indigenous to the Macedonian "land"? DUI and DPA could fit that category too.

Depends on what your definition of "indigenous" is I guess.

[aleksandrov]

i agree with jankovska as a far as symbols go i think its better by far and what alexanders armies took into battle doesnt concern me at all, my links with an ancient symbol that was used not just by the macedonians are non existent.

Osiris,

There is an important distinction between the aesthetic appeal and origin of a design and what it symbolizes when placed on a flag. The current political and philosophical symbolism of the current flag would be the same to me regardless of whether Gligorov and Co. chose the 'ventilator' or some 'indigenous' Macedonian sheep or an African lion or an Albanian wolf. It is what is beneath the skin that matters.

[TrueMacedonian]

The attempts to post-justify the flag of anti-Macedonian oppression and capitulation by associating it with any archeological artifacts found in Macedonia, which were not a consideration in the adoption of the flag, are as logical as trying to justify parading with Nazi flags on the grounds that the Swastika is a symbol of Hinduism, Budhism or Jainism ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika).

Can you tell me when the 16 ray symbol was used as a Macedonian symbol after antiquity?

[aleksandrov]

Depends on what your definition of "indigenous" is I guess.

Read the Interim Accord and you might get a rough idea of what the RELEVANT definition might be and how far removed your implied definition is from it.

The Macedonian people are not named after the Macedonian land. The Macedonian land was named after the Macedonian people.

[osiris]

alexandrov i know what you mean and i agree your point that we were forced to change to deny us any links with the ancients is valid, but in 50 years time if we still have this flag what will it symbolize then a political compromise or strong stylized version of an ancient symbol.

[Vangelovski]

Vangelovski here's something of a bio on Alekovski. http://www.archaeomythology.org/even...rb04_bios.html

Dusko Aleksovski, Ph.D. studied philology and later archaeology at the University of St. Cyril and Methodius in Skopje, Macedonia, and completed his doctorate in philology at Franche Compte-Besancon-France University in 1981. He studied excavation methods in Martigny, Switzerland and became an archaeological researcher in 1986. After discovering rock art in the Republic of Macedonia in 1991, he created the Macedonian Rock Art Research Centre in 1992 and is the founder and director of the World Rock Art Academy in Skopje. Since 1991, Dr. Aleksovski has discovered 1126 Rock Art sites with more than one million rock art engravings and has written and lectured widely on this theme. His papers include: “Recherches de l' Art Rupestre de la Republique Macedoine” (Bollettino del Centro Studi e Museo d' Arte Preistorica di Pinerolo, Italy, Anni V-VI no. 7-8 (1991-1992); and “La signification des cupules a la lumiere de nouvelles decouvertes,” Bollettino del Centro Camuno di Studi Preistorici, vol. XXXI-XXXII (1999).


I can understand the hesitation to accept this. Believe me. But the claim he is making would largely destroy his reputation if he was lying so we should take that into consideration as well.

TM,

Most Macedonian "scholars" have destroyed their reputations - if they ever had any to begin with.

Until I see evidence of these finds, I won't be convinced that they exist. Even if they do, it is irrelevant, the fact that the ventilator is treason still stands.

[Vangelovski]

alexandrov i know what you mean and i agree your point that we were forced to change to deny us any links with the ancients is valid, but in 50 years time if we still have this flag what will it symbolize then a political compromise or strong stylized version of an ancient symbol.

The passage of time does not change the fact that an event occured or the reason it occured. If that were true, we could just as well say that the passage of 60 years is long enough to pretend that the Holocaust never happened. Its called historical revisionism.