Ventilator

[Makedonska_Kafana]

Guys, none of you are strangers and at one time or another worked side by side. It, should never be he's right or he's wrong rather how can we learn not to make similar mistakes and build on it?

One, topic does not make or break any member ..

[Risto the Great]

It ultimately depends on the situation. Providing an opportunity for individuals to speak their mind and to actively listen shows that you care. This in turn may bring up points of discussion that may have previously never surfaced. The key is to hear their story and find a suitable way of informing them or persuading them into developing a view that may align with your own.

This may reasonably well be the phase you are at in your life. The capitulation of Macedonia has gone on longer than you have been alive. Some of us have seen whatever good was achieved turn pear shaped and are very angry. So we may have a different perspective on many matters.

You are inconsistent in your approach EM. You previously said you would not change your opinion and now you accept that you might change how you feel about some issues. Is it wrong of me to point out the fact that your message on this matter has been inconsistent? Should I pretend I can't see this inconsistency so that we can get along better? What is the advantage of pretending I didn't notice your inconsistency? Will we be able to rely on your utterances in the future? Could you perhaps enter into any "inner circles" given your views are inconsistent?

No big deal. Please don't get offended, I am merely pointing out something quite obvious. I have no desire to create animosity between us.

Politicians may be great liars, but they are the people who ultimately run the country. Perhaps this stereotype can be put to bed through future competent and honest leadership in Macedonia.

It will never happen in my opinion but we can hope I suppose.

I consider the above a lot more respectful than saying, "Believe what I say or I'll spread the word that your a traitor." This approach is basically forcing an opinion onto people, leaving no room for discussion. You bring up the notion of a 'poker face' or such in terms of the utterances you've highlighted above, yet forcing a view upon someone may have similar circumstances, only this time through the 'accused' individual. Hypothetically, if you were to pressure someone and force them to reject the ventilator in every sense, do they really learn anything? I'm sure your aware of peer pressure, and the ever growing fear of being excluded in todays society. Wouldn't it be far more effective to educate them or remind them of WHY the ventilator is detrimental to the sovereignty of Macedonia. Treating forceful actions on the people as paramount to preaching the truth to them, screams a dictatorship or lack of democracy to me.

What makes you think we haven't tried to educate or remind people?

Peer pressure would be awesome if the peers had a clue.

My viewpoints would not be effected if I disagreed with everything they said, but even in amongst their flawed views, there are lessons to be learned. By adopting a consultative approach, we may effectively learn common 'errors' in an individuals ideology that can be generalised to the masses. This would in turn provide for a more efficient and effective process in terms of what needs to be done, and how.

You know we are talking about the flag ... not the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. Old flag good, new flag bad.

our aim is united, but our means of remedy is where the discrepancies exist. Does this mean that those who prefer one approach as opposed to another should be labelled as working 'against' the Macedonian cause? No.

To be honest, we simply cannot be sure.

There's a difference between agreeing and listening. If you had 'listened' to what I've been trying to convey, then I'm sure you'd also 'agree' that we all share the same goal. You need to take those blinkers off and see the world for what it is. Stop trying to position your views as the only ladder to redemption.

I thought we were talking about the Flag on this thread.

[EgejskaMakedonia]

This may reasonably well be the phase you are at in your life. The capitulation of Macedonia has gone on longer than you have been alive. Some of us have seen whatever good was achieved turn pear shaped and are very angry. So we may have a different perspective on many matters.

You are inconsistent in your approach EM. You previously said you would not change your opinion and now you accept that you might change how you feel about some issues. Is it wrong of me to point out the fact that your message on this matter has been inconsistent? Should I pretend I can't see this inconsistency so that we can get along better? What is the advantage of pretending I didn't notice your inconsistency? Will we be able to rely on your utterances in the future? Could you perhaps enter into any "inner circles" given your views are inconsistent?

No big deal. Please don't get offended, I am merely pointing out something quite obvious. I have no desire to create animosity between us.

Risto, there's a difference between being inconsistent and presenting an approach in both general and specific terms. You cannot expect that the same results will eventuate for every scenario of this nature, and I would thus see inconsistency are offering a necesssary space for flexibility.
In regards to the ventilator, it is unlikely that my views would change at all after executing my approach, however that does not mean that nothing can be learnt from the process. Like I said, a common flaw in ventilator supporters may be identified and thus the method of resolution can be tailored and moulded into the most appropriate form.

What makes you think we haven't tried to educate or remind people?

Vangelovski has pushed his 'forceful' approach and to me, that leaves little room or opportunity for education.

Peer pressure would be awesome if the peers had a clue.

Not really, because if the people need to be pressured to believe something it may not necessarily reflect their true values. Nor may it permit the time or resources required to help 'fix' their views to align with the Macedonian cause.

You know we are talking about the flag ... not the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. Old flag good, new flag bad.

I thought we were talking about the Flag on this thread.

The Ventilator Thread and Todor Petrov thread have almost combined into the same old stale arguments. I'm almost forgetting which one I'm posting in. Regardless, this debate is related to the flag and all Macedonian issues for that matter.

[Makedonska_Kafana]

The Ventilator Thread and Todor Petrov thread have almost combined into the same old stale arguments.

100% correct, lets move forward now ..

[Risto the Great]

The Petrov thread is about about Petrov and his relationship with the ventilator.

[Risto the Great]

Risto, there's a difference between being inconsistent and presenting an approach in both general and specific terms. You cannot expect that the same results will eventuate for every scenario of this nature, and I would thus see inconsistency are offering a necesssary space for flexibility.
In regards to the ventilator, it is unlikely that my views would change at all after executing my approach, however that does not mean that nothing can be learnt from the process. Like I said, a common flaw in ventilator supporters may be identified and thus the method of resolution can be tailored and moulded into the most appropriate form.

Do you think I (or Vangelovski) would be the first ones to go running around Macedonia ripping ventilator flags down? We are trying to educate and create a mindset that completely embraces sovereignty. It is working, no matter how distasteful you feel it is.

Not really, because if the people need to be pressured to believe something it may not necessarily reflect their true values. Nor may it permit the time or resources required to help 'fix' their views to align with the Macedonian cause.

I would guess Macedonia presently has about 1.5 million Macedonians who barely have any values on Macedonian sovereignty. Their apathy has created this ethnically federalised State.

Regardless, this debate is related to the flag and all Macedonian issues for that matter.

Not for me. For me it is about whether we need to feel sympathetic to people who are making excuses for the ventilator flag even after they say they understand the nature of its adoption. That kind of stupidity may well extend to other issues but they are worthy of separate discussions in my opinion.

[EgejskaMakedonia]

The Petrov thread is about about Petrov and his relationship with the ventilator.

Is it really? The name Todor Petrov has probably not been mentioned for the last 7-8 pages of that thread. It has become an exact replica of the Ventilator thread and has brought the same cycle of arguments with it.

[EgejskaMakedonia]

Do you think I (or Vangelovski) would be the first ones to go running around Macedonia ripping ventilator flags down? We are trying to educate and create a mindset that completely embraces sovereignty. It is working, no matter how distasteful you feel it is.


I would guess Macedonia presently has about 1.5 million Macedonians who barely have any values on Macedonian sovereignty. Their apathy has created this ethnically federalised State.


Not for me. For me it is about whether we need to feel sympathetic to people who are making excuses for the ventilator flag even after they say they understand the nature of its adoption. That kind of stupidity may well extend to other issues but they are worthy of separate discussions in my opinion.

I don't doubt that it isn't working, but being fixed on one solution isn't allowing for a Plan B if it is unsuccessful. From what I've gathered, my approach was criticised on the basis of further educating people, as opposed 'cornering them' and forcing them to make a decision without prior opportunity to have a say. If it is working, then so be it, but there is no harm in being flexible to accomodate for all people you seek to preach to.

There's a difference between sympathy and understanding/listening. There is more chance in an individual changing their views on their own accord if you act like you care, rather than labelling and accusing them of all sorts of acts against their country.

[Vangelovski]

I don't doubt that it isn't working, but being fixed on one solution isn't allowing for a Plan B if it is unsuccessful. From what I've gathered, my approach was criticised on the basis of further educating people, as opposed 'cornering them' and forcing them to make a decision without prior opportunity to have a say. If it is working, then so be it, but there is no harm in being flexible to accomodate for all people you seek to preach to.

EM, next time (and it shouldn't be too long) a pro-ventilator poster sticks their head out, are you willing to put your 'approach' to the test?

[cultea]

I would guess Macedonia presently has about 1.5 million Macedonians who barely have any values on Macedonian sovereignty. Their apathy has created this ethnically federalised State.

Isn't this a little harsh? Someone could call you an apathetic for staying in Australia. You often sound like a general who yells to his soldiers "Fight you cowards" while staying in a safe distance. That's your first problem in my opinion. One of you must set the example himself, if you want to start a political organization with an impact in Macedonia.

The second problem is this "I just fell from space" mentality. Is it maybe a little late for a "change back the flag" initiative? Not that I see anything wrong or illegitimate about it.
I live in Greece and people are often asking “Why are you asking for something that can’t be done?” Well, anything can be done, but it’s good to be honest and admit the chances, or analyse why they’re almost zero.

I don’t remember any serious clashes and arguments about the flag (from 1995 until now). I’m not aware of any political party that has strongly disagreed, that is not using it or any that has promised to bring the old flag back. If you consider as traitors or ignorant those who use the ventilator you may have lost touch with realities on the ground. The bloody distance again.

[EgejskaMakedonia]

EM, next time (and it shouldn't be too long) a pro-ventilator poster sticks their head out, are you willing to put your 'approach' to the test?

Yes, that should be clear by now. If it is unsuccessful, then I acknowledge that a Plan B for me (which may be your plan A) may be more appropriate in certain circumstances.

[Vangelovski]

Yes, that should be clear by now. If it is unsuccessful, then I acknowledge that a Plan B for me (which may be your plan A) may be more appropriate in certain circumstances.

Let the learning curve begin

[George S.]

cultea you suffer a reality check. What is the ventilator it's a capitulated or compromised flag .What is the name fyrom it is a nonsensical supposed to be a temporary name.Can you decipher in your brain that we have been had & we have been screwed by our own politicians.We are still being screwed around with the name just so that we could enter the eu.We have been reduced again & again by the powers that be to grovelling & a slave mentality.RtG is a beleiver in the macedonian cause & in the awakening of the macedonian spirit to free itself from bondage & serfdom.Can you name me one decent thing that macedonia has done that doesn't affect its soveregnity.It has capitulated on all fronts.For no reason.Greece did not desrve aMONOPOLY of the flag symbol they could have been shared they gave in so easily.The name itself greece wants a monopoly on it.
They are not really entitled to it all because it holds a province called macedonia that it annexed in 1913 of the pretext that it was liberating called occupied territories after 1913.
The last thingwe need from you is more denials.In 1995 the traitor branko crvenkovski capitulated on the flag.He didn't have to do it but he did.He didn't ask the people to make that decision.He is a traitor for giving in so easily.Greece can ride roughshot all over macedonia.WhaT WE in the diaspora are saying is there was no reason why we should change our flag.It is a sun symbol used by the macedonians throughout the ages.Unlike the greeks they only came to be aware after discovering it 1n 1988 in vergina(kutlesh).Why doesn't greece have a monopoly on it because that symbol is macedonian & it is plastered literarily everywhere in ROM.Also greece only holds it as an occupier not that it desrves it historically also greece should not have been allowed to monopolise something that it doesn't own exclusively.THey think the star of verfina is to be found only in vergina.Blind freddy could tell you that's not true.So cultea you need a reality check & risto is doing the right thing regarding the flag.What's so hard to hoist the right flag up the pole why are people so scared it might offend greece.Cultea what makes you sure that greece cares one way or the other only if it doesn't have to give back the macedonian lands back.That it took illegally from the macedonian people.

[Sputnik]

Hello to everyone.

To use a radio talk back term, iv'e been a long time listener, first time caller.

Iv'e been reading posts for a while now that have bothered me which i no longer can sit back and ignore. I will add my opinions shortly. Till then, peace out.

[makedonche]

Hello to everyone.

To use a radio talk back term, iv'e been a long time listener, first time caller.

Iv'e been reading posts for a while now that have bothered me which i no longer can sit back and ignore. I will add my opinions shortly. Till then, peace out.

Sputnik
Welcome to the MTO
Where are you from?