Ventilator

[EgejskaMakedonia]

I was referring to adults, but now that you have brought up minors, what of them? Are you claiming they, once adults, are incapable of independent thought?

Not all teenagers and children need constant spoon feeding, many are just as capable of independent thought than 18+ adults. My point in regards to recent generations is that they've been born into a country where the ventilator is the national flag. Therefore by that logic, unless educated otherwise, they are quite likely to embrace the flag as their national symbol.

Which views are you referring to?

Their views in regards to the ventilator. Views change substantially from generation to generation, and many become a product of their environment.

All adults know the difference between 'right' and 'wrong' unless they are mentally incapacitated.

If it were that black and white I highly doubt we would have half as many problems in this world than we do today. Even if they can distinguish between 'right' and 'wrong,' many individuals will convince themselves they are doing the right thing for whatever unsubstantiated reason. There is often a grey area between the two opposites, and this can severely cloud one's judgement.

And? What is your point in relation to this discussion?

My point in regards to this comment is why would you consider all Macedonians as being aware of the implications of the ventilator, yet they still embrace it? Some become accustomed and even brainwashed into following a certain view, even if they have been exposed to the true reality.

Adult Macedonians are fully aware of what the ventilator is, they need to make a choice on whether to exercise their own freedom or allow themselves to be dominated by their enemies.

Maybe so, but are they aware of the extent to which such a move undermines the sovereignty of Macedonia? If they fully acknowledged the danger and threat posed by the ventilator I highly doubt it'd outnumber the old sonce 10+ to 1 in the majority of Macedonian events that occur in Macedonia. By only referring to adult Macedonians, you are already excluding a large proportion of the population who are perhaps the people we should be targeting the most in regards to educating them about this issue.

EM, I'm not sure of your age, but an adult does not have the luxury of claiming ignorance. In fact, in most legal systems, ignorance is not a defence for criminal liability.

Not entirely sure what you are trying to say here. I'm not officially an adult in terms of age, I cannot vote yet, but I like to think I'm just as capable of making decision than 'adults.' A person does not magically change from the moment they hit 18 or whatever age you would consider an adult. Ignorance can be prevalent in all age groups, yet only a viable excuse for younger people. Of course there are ignorant Macedonians, yet it is up to their own conscience to decide what is 'right' and 'wrong,' or perhaps they lack a thorough understanding of the issue at hand. There's a difference between a lack of knowledge and ignorance.

I hardly think that the overt oppression experienced by Macedonians under Greek occupation is a relevant analogy to the apathetic approach the Macedonians within the republic have taken over the past 20 years.

Anyone is susceptible to being 'brainwashed' even if it is by their own government. So in that sense, yes, it is actually very relevant. There is definitely an 'accepting' mentality of the new flag and situation of the country, even if many may disagree with it, some have obviously been distracted by what is seemingly a 'patriotic government' or perhaps they just don't care enough.

[Risto the Great]

Not all teenagers and children need constant spoon feeding, many are just as capable of independent thought than 18+ adults.

They are the exceptions.

[EgejskaMakedonia]

They are the exceptions.

I can think of a lot of adults who are just as incompetent. 'Adults' say the current (teens) generation is the worst one so far, but they forget who brought them up. Baby boomers for ya.

Which goes on to my previous point. The new generations are a product of their environment, we no longer live in stari kraj, that is why there is a difference between the generations and their views.

[Vangelovski]

EM,

I'm afraid you will be in for a rude shock on you're 18th birthday. You see, something magical does happen when you turn 18 (at least in European societies). This is the date from which society deems that you are intellectually mature enough to be held accountable for your decisions/actions. Mum and Dad don't come into the picture anymore. Neither does anybody else. Its just you and your decisions/actions. Like I already said, ignorance is not a defence (you seem to like using legal terms in your posts, so I assume you are familiar with the concept as it applies to the majority of legal systems across the world).

Adult Macedonians have no excuse. If they are ignorant of what the ventilator is, then they are guilty of being morally and politically irresponsible and the question of whether they even deserve their freedom is raised.

If they are not ignorant of what the ventilator is (and I personally believe this is the case for the vast majority of Macedonians in Macedonia and across the world) and still support its use, then they are an enemy of freedom (I know it sounds like a clique, but its an accurate statement).

But as I said in the begining - my aim is not to educate in relation to the ventilator (I don't think its necessary), my aim is to force people to make a choice and abandon their delusions.

[EgejskaMakedonia]

EM,

I'm afraid you will be in for a rude shock on you're 18th birthday. You see, something magical does happen when you turn 18 (at least in European societies). This is the date from which society deems that you are intellectually mature enough to be held accountable for your decisions/actions. Mum and Dad don't come into the picture anymore. Neither does anybody else. Its just you and your decisions/actions. Like I already said, ignorance is not a defence (you seem to like using legal terms in your posts, so I assume you are familiar with the concept as it applies to the majority of legal systems across the world).

Adult Macedonians have no excuse. If they are ignorant of what the ventilator is, then they are guilty of being morally and politically irresponsible and the question of whether they even deserve their freedom is raised.

If they are not ignorant of what the ventilator is (and I personally believe this is the case for the vast majority of Macedonians in Macedonia and across the world) and still support its use, then they are an enemy of freedom (I know it sounds like a clique, but its an accurate statement).

But as I said in the begining - my aim is not to educate in relation to the ventilator (I don't think its necessary), my aim is to force people to make a choice and abandon their delusions.

Sorry but I doubt I will be in for a major shock as you imply. Nothing at the moment stops me from committing a crime other than my own moral code and sense of what is 'right' and 'wrong.' Hypothetically, if I were to murder someone I would not get off scott free due to my age. It's almost certain that unless I was mentally incapable to have a 'guilty mind,' I would be transferred to an adult prison once I hit the age of 18. What you say may apply to some, but there is no use in generalising this to all young people.

Recently our school spoke to prisoners from the highest security prison in Victoria, Barwon, as part of a program. Imprisonment is aimed at rehabilitating and punishing the criminal right? Well I can assure you that some of them have little remorse for their actions and have not been 'cured' despite coming across as normal, day-to-day human beings. No different to turning 18, the 'change' is sometimes a sorry myth.

Actually, our legal system differs from the one adopted by many European nations. The burden rests with the prosecution in criminal cases to prove that one committed the crime. So in regards to this topic, despite ignorance not being a defence, you don't have to say a word in reply. Does this really signify a mature person who is capable of distinguishing between 'right' and 'wrong'? or is it a case of looking out for your own interests?

The same applies in Macedonia. People may know the difference between 'right' and 'wrong,' but are presented with no obligation to act upon this, rather believing it is the responsibility of someone else to do something. Why would someone embrace the ventilator despite knowing the dire circumstances that it entails? Are they ignorant or do they lack knowledge? I think there are factions of both in the Macedonian community.

Put it this way, do you seriously believe that once many of the younger generation of Macedonians turn 18, they will suddenly experience a moral and mental revolution? Will it suddenly click to them that the flag they grew up with is a breach of Macedonia's sovereignty? No, because they need to be educated to develop such a moral code and sound understanding in the first place.

[Volk]

Again Volk, I'll refer you to the very first post on this thread. Again, I'll refer you to my posts where I note the rock is a side show used by ideologically flawed idiots like yourself to drum up false legitimacy for the ventilator and then pretend they never did.

No wonder everyone here thinks your an idiot, except your honor guard ofcourse...

Please highlight how I am ideologically flawed? Is it because I think your an arrogant, blatantly lying, narcissistic idiot? In your eyes your Goce Delcev risen from the grave, when all you are is a joke.

[Vangelovski]

Sorry but I doubt I will be in for a major shock as you imply. Nothing at the moment stops me from committing a crime other than my own moral code and sense of what is 'right' and 'wrong.' Hypothetically, if I were to murder someone I would not get off scott free due to my age. It's almost certain that unless I was mentally incapable to have a 'guilty mind,' I would be transferred to an adult prison once I hit the age of 18. What you say may apply to some, but there is no use in generalising this to all young people.

Recently our school spoke to prisoners from the highest security prison in Victoria, Barwon, as part of a program. Imprisonment is aimed at rehabilitating and punishing the criminal right? Well I can assure you that some of them have little remorse for their actions and have not been 'cured' despite coming across as normal, day-to-day human beings. No different to turning 18, the 'change' is sometimes a sorry myth.

Actually, our legal system differs from the one adopted by many European nations. The burden rests with the prosecution in criminal cases to prove that one committed the crime. So in regards to this topic, despite ignorance not being a defence, you don't have to say a word in reply. Does this really signify a mature person who is capable of distinguishing between 'right' and 'wrong'? or is it a case of looking out for your own interests?

The same applies in Macedonia. People may know the difference between 'right' and 'wrong,' but are presented with no obligation to act upon this, rather believing it is the responsibility of someone else to do something. Why would someone embrace the ventilator despite knowing the dire circumstances that it entails? Are they ignorant or do they lack knowledge? I think there are factions of both in the Macedonian community.

Put it this way, do you seriously believe that once many of the younger generation of Macedonians turn 18, they will suddenly experience a moral and mental revolution? Will it suddenly click to them that the flag they grew up with is a breach of Macedonia's sovereignty? No, because they need to be educated to develop such a moral code and sound understanding in the first place.

EM, you're going way off course and making irrelevant comments and analogies. I suggest you reread my posts to better understand the substance of my message.

I was going to give minors the benefit of the doubt, but if you insist on claiming moral responsibility for them, then so be it. But that only makes your position much more precarious.

[Vangelovski]

Please highlight how I am ideologically flawed?

In relation to almost every conceivable issue. You pick a topic and we'll go from there.

[Soldier of Macedon]

No wonder everyone here thinks your an idiot, except your honor guard ofcourse...

Don't presume you're in a position to speak on behalf of others at the MTO. And to be honest, with all of your little 'honor guard' remarks, it is obvious who is behaving like the idiot. Grow up.

[EgejskaMakedonia]

Don't presume you're in a position to speak on behalf of others at the MTO. And to be honest, with all of your little 'honor guard' remarks, it is obvious who is behaving like the idiot. Grow up.

So then what gives the admins the right to speak on behalf of all Macedonians in regards to what is 'right' and 'wrong?' I agree with everything in the press releases, but the ventilator issue has created unnecessary and disrespectful labeling of fellow Macedonians who ultimately share the same plight.

I'm not trying to be a smart ass, but the context is exactly the same.

[Vangelovski]

So then what gives the admins the right to speak on behalf of all Macedonians in regards to what is 'right' and 'wrong?' I agree with everything in the press releases, but the ventilator issue has created unnecessary and disrespectful labeling of fellow Macedonians who ultimately share the same plight.

I'm not trying to be a smart ass, but the context is exactly the same.

Unnecessary and disrespectful? There are Macedonians who have promoted capitulation and bondage and when it is pointed out you consider this to be 'unnecessary and disrespectful'? On what basis did you conclude this?

Further, when has the MTO spoken on behalf of ALL Macedonians? Are you making more presumptions?

[Soldier of Macedon]

If individuals on this forum are confident in asking members to familiarise themselves with the IA and implication of the ventilator, what makes the Macedonians in Macedonia any different from such unawareness.

In the Diaspora, knowing about issues relating to the dispute with Greece are generally a matter of choice (one needs to have an interest, seek and follow Macedonian radio, newspapers, community announcements, etc). In Macedonia, they are constantly exposed to this in ALL types of media across the whole country, whether they seek it or not. So I question the validity of the claim that people there (at least most of them) are ignorant of the 'implications'. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realise that if somebody takes something from you and provides you with an artificial replacement, you shouldn't be wearing the latter like a badge of pride.

They (the majority) have developed a tolerance and level of indifference over years of ideological mutation propagated by successive Macedonian governments. They don't seem to care as much as we do. How do we make them care more? How do we make them realise that acceptance only means further submission? I don't consider Tose Proeski a traitor, nor ignorant, nor stupid. Yet, he waves the ventilator. Does that mean that people should stay silent because he is Tose Proeski? Or should people make comment and criticism when and where due? I don't see anybody criticising his musical ability or his love for Macedonia, but if he is doing something wrong with respect to the Macedonian Cause then it must be highlighted to him, to Goran Pandev, or whoever else. Those are people that can make a difference given their exposure.

Let me ask you - how many famous Macedonians in Macedonia do you know of who reject the ventilator?

[Soldier of Macedon]

So then what gives the admins the right to speak on behalf of all Macedonians........

Cite ONE example of where the MTO admins have claimed to speak on behalf of all Macedonians - or think a little more before you make such a silly comment. If you're talking about people having principles that don't conform with the Macedonian Cause, then that is another matter. And we will highlight when somebody is right or wrong in that regard - as should all of you who agree with the Macedonian Cause.

I'm not trying to be a smart ass........

You certainly are starting to sound like one.

[EgejskaMakedonia]

In the Diaspora, knowing about issues relating to the dispute with Greece are generally a matter of choice (one needs to have an interest, seek and follow Macedonian radio, newspapers, community announcements, etc). In Macedonia, they are constantly exposed to this in ALL types of media across the whole country, whether they seek it or not. So I question the validity of the claim that people there (at least most of them) are ignorant of the 'implications'. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realise that if somebody takes something from you and provides you with an artificial replacement, you shouldn't be wearing the latter like a badge of pride.

They (the majority) have developed a tolerance and level of indifference over years of ideological mutation propagated by successive Macedonian governments. They don't seem to care as much as we do. How do we make them care more? How do we make them realise that acceptance only means further submission? I don't consider Tose Proeski a traitor, nor ignorant, nor stupid. Yet, he waves the ventilator. Does that mean that people should stay silent because he is Tose Proeski? Or should people make comment and criticism when and where due? I don't see anybody criticising his musical ability or his love for Macedonia, but if he is doing something wrong with respect to the Macedonian Cause then it must be highlighted to him, to Goran Pandev, or whoever else. Those are people that can make a difference given their exposure.

Let me ask you - how many famous Macedonians in Macedonia do you know of who reject the ventilator?

None that immediately spring to mind. What I have highlighted is the view I have been trying to push. Just because he waved the ventilator during his performances, it by no means establishes him as a traitor. That is why people need to be told, educated and encouraged to lobby and fight for Macedonia's rights. Vangelovski said himself he does not believe in educating these people, so how may they then preach to their audience the true Macedonian flag, if they aren't informed of their wrongs?

That's all I ask, evidence and detailed information is presented in posts. I find it a lot easier to agree with yourself and RtG due to the simple fact that unlike others who resort to attacks, you back up your statements.

Cite ONE example of where the MTO admins have claimed to speak on behalf of all Macedonians - or think a little more before you make such a silly comment. If you're talking about people having principles that don't conform with the Macedonian Cause, then that is another matter. And we will highlight when somebody is right or wrong in that regard - as should all of you who agree with the Macedonian Cause.

You certainly are starting to sound like one.

The ventilator issue has caused discrepancies between people who share the same ideology, and a mentality of 'agree, or else your a traitor' is definitely prevalent in the posts of some members of the MTO.

If I'm a smart ass, I'd hate to think what that makes Vangelovski.

Unnecessary and disrespectful? There are Macedonians who have promoted capitulation and bondage and when it is pointed out you consider this to be 'unnecessary and disrespectful'? On what basis did you conclude this?

Further, when has the MTO spoken on behalf of ALL Macedonians? Are you making more presumptions?

I'm referring to the difference that rests with the approach that should be taken to rectify the sorry reality in Macedonia. I'd rather much educate the people, however you obviously prefer a 'forceful' strategy. That is where I believe the line being drawn is disrespectful and frankly, a bit of a joke.

[Bij]