Ventilator

[Risto the Great]

Isn't this the exact point I was trying to make a few weeks ago? Yet the cavalry were quick to jump on the prospect of accusing individuals as lacking an understanding for the flag, on the basis of not recognising it as a number 1 priority in the current circumstances.

It is just another reminder of the misery of Macedonia. It is a prominent one and its symbolism represents nothing more than capitulation. It's rejection could set a powerful precedent. It is one issue we have addressed and would hope that intelligent Macedonians understand how it represents nothing more than a victim mentality. There are obviously other issues.

I don't think Volk can make it much clearer with his previous statement. Hypothetically speaking, even if the rock was somehow proven to be ancient, despite being a historical imprint, it would not be symbolic of Macedonia or the Macedonian people in any way, shape or form.

Nobody was disputing this. It was his conclusion that Vangelovski would have embraced the new flag if proven to have some historical significance that was laughable.

[Vangelovski]

Isn't this the exact point I was trying to make a few weeks ago? Yet the cavalry were quick to jump on the prospect of accusing individuals as lacking an understanding for the flag, on the basis of not recognising it as a number 1 priority in the current circumstances.

I don't think Volk can make it much clearer with his previous statement. Hypothetically speaking, even if the rock was somehow proven to be ancient, despite being a historical imprint, it would not be symbolic of Macedonia or the Macedonian people in any way, shape or form.

EM, not sure how familiar you are with Volk, but he changes his mind on these issues on a weekly basis. He's not sure what he supports, but he knows that what he supports today won't necessarily be what he will support tomorrow, or again the next day.

[George S.]

the worst thing for macedonia is people to become complacent & to actuall accept capitulation & compromise on its identity.the flag issue should be straight forward we don't accept it we want our old flag back not some half baked ventilator emblem.We need our real flag to awaken the people with a real sense of pride.We want the macedonian sonce see.That's what we want .

[EgejskaMakedonia]

It is just another reminder of the misery of Macedonia. It is a prominent one and its symbolism represents nothing more than capitulation. It's rejection could set a powerful precedent. It is one issue we have addressed and would hope that intelligent Macedonians understand how it represents nothing more than a victim mentality. There are obviously other issues.

Nobody was disputing this. It was his conclusion that Vangelovski would have embraced the new flag if proven to have some historical significance that was laughable.

Good points, however I think it will be almost impossible to completely eradicate the ventilator unless a ban is placed on it, and such an action would go against the values of a democracy. If the old flag is ever reinstated in order for precedent to be set, those responsible for its reintroduction would need to establish the reasons for the decision, essentially the ratio decidendi...otherwise the action would hold little credibility by my standards.

If the general consensus regarding the implications of ventilator is not acknowledged then I don't think Macedonians deserve to change it back.

EM, not sure how familiar you are with Volk, but he changes his mind on these issues on a weekly basis. He's not sure what he supports, but he knows that what he supports today won't necessarily be what he will support tomorrow, or again the next day.

I'm aware to some extent of Volk's contribution to the forums, but even if his perceptions are inconsistent (not saying they are), I'd much rather judge him on his current stance, which he quite clearly highlighted in his previous post.

the worst thing for macedonia is people to become complacent & to actuall accept capitulation & compromise on its identity.the flag issue should be straight forward we don't accept it we want our old flag back not some half baked ventilator emblem.We need our real flag to awaken the people with a real sense of pride.We want the macedonian sonce see.That's what we want .

It has already happened. Many Macedonians see it as the Macedonian national flag, a symbol of their country. These people need awakening, but to treat them as inferior Macedonians is not a progressive step, unless they actively and knowingly work against the Macedonian cause. Like I said before, simply bringing back the old flag will change the views of few, unless a reason is given for the decision. Understanding and education is the key to a true appreciation of what the 16-ray symbol means to Macedonians, as well as the detrimental implications of the current flag.
There are more important issues to presently focus on than bringing back the rightful flag of Macedonia, however these will virtually contribute to this eventual (let's hope) action.

[Vangelovski]

If the old flag is ever reinstated in order for precedent to be set, those responsible for its reintroduction would need to establish the reasons for the decision, essentially the ratio decidendi...otherwise the action would hold little credibility by my standards.

Why would those who reenstate the freely chosen sonce need to "establish the reasons for the decision"? What standards are you referring to?

The reasons for such a decision are quite clear. The ventilator is high treason and a crime against the Macedonian people. As such, it needs to be removed immediately and the default position would be the legally and freely chosen flag of 1991.

[EgejskaMakedonia]

Why would those who reenstate the freely chosen sonce need to "establish the reasons for the decision"? What standards are you referring to?

The reasons for such a decision are quite clear. The ventilator is high treason and a crime against the Macedonian people. As such, it needs to be removed immediately and the default position would be the legally and freely chosen flag of 1991.

There is always a reason behind everything. If the old flag were reinstated, it must be made clear to the Macedonian people WHY it is being reinstated, and WHAT caused it to be removed in the first place. By the looks of things, a vast proportion of Macedonians embrace the ventilator, unaware of its criminal introduction as the state flag. The point is to educate the people and make it obvious to even the rest of the world, that justice is emerging from the initial blackmail on behalf of Greece. Otherwise the media would not hesitate to label the action as another 'provoking action' by the Macedonian Government.

The reasons for such a decision may be quite clear to you, but this isn't as obvious to many Macedonians, thus why the ventilator still exists today. My standards refer to the fact that, if we were to wake up the next morning with the old sonce back in business, collectively as a nation we have learnt next to nothing. The idea is to convey to the people the truth and the meaning of the flag, as well as the illegal actions that saw it removed back in the mid 90s. There is no use in assuming that people will get the point or learn from their mistakes. There's an overabundance of evidence throughout Macedonia's history to rightfully suggest otherwise.

[Vangelovski]

There is always a reason behind everything. If the old flag were reinstated, it must be made clear to the Macedonian people WHY it is being reinstated, and WHAT caused it to be removed in the first place. By the looks of things, a vast proportion of Macedonians embrace the ventilator, unaware of its criminal introduction as the state flag. The point is to educate the people and make it obvious to even the rest of the world, that justice is emerging from the initial blackmail on behalf of Greece. Otherwise the media would not hesitate to label the action as another 'provoking action' by the Macedonian Government.

The reasons for such a decision may be quite clear to you, but this isn't as obvious to many Macedonians, thus why the ventilator still exists today. My standards refer to the fact that, if we were to wake up the next morning with the old sonce back in business, collectively as a nation we have learnt next to nothing. The idea is to convey to the people the truth and the meaning of the flag, as well as the illegal actions that saw it removed back in the mid 90s. There is no use in assuming that people will get the point or learn from their mistakes. There's an overabundance of evidence throughout Macedonia's history to rightfully suggest otherwise.

EM, you shouldn't presume that the Macedonians in Macedonia are that stupid. There is a lot of talk from posters about "educating" the "masses". We won't go into why they take that "approach" as they call it, but the underlying presumption that the Macedonians in the republic are completely oblivious is quite ridiculous and an unwarranted usurpation of their individual and collective responsibility for what has occurred.

[EgejskaMakedonia]

EM, you shouldn't presume that the Macedonians in Macedonia are that stupid. There is a lot of talk from posters about "educating" the "masses". We won't go into why they take that "approach" as they call it, but the underlying presumption that the Macedonians in the republic are completely oblivious is quite ridiculous and an unwarranted usurpation of their individual and collective responsibility for what has occurred.

I didn't say they were stupid, and I'm confident in their ability to do what is right for the country. I stated that there is a current mentality that is almost accepting of particular circumstances that surround us today.

Not sure where you pulled that comment out of but adopting the tactics used against Volk, I'm quite sure you and many others have suggested or implied otherwise in the past.
Obviously if nothing was wrong in Macedonia we wouldn't be up to our neck in a ocean of problems.

[Vangelovski]

I didn't say they were stupid, and I'm confident in their ability to do what is right for the country. I stated that there is a current mentality that is almost accepting of particular circumstances that surround us today.

Not sure where you pulled that comment out of but adopting the tactics used against Volk, I'm quite sure you and many others have suggested or implied otherwise in the past.
Obviously if nothing was wrong in Macedonia we wouldn't be up to our neck in a ocean of problems.

EM, you should reread your own post. You began with a presupposition that the Macedonians in Macedonia are unaware of what the ventilator actually is and the circumstances in which it was forced on them. This is a fallacy and a dangerous one at that because it implies they hold no responsibility for it, which in turn acts to diminish their obligation to do something about it.

[EgejskaMakedonia]

EM, you should reread your own post. You began with a presupposition that the Macedonians in Macedonia are unaware of what the ventilator actually is and the circumstances in which it was forced on them. This is a fallacy and a dangerous one at that because it implies they hold no responsibility for it, which in turn acts to diminish their obligation to do something about it.

I made it clear that some Macedonians are unaware of the true implications of the ventilator. How is it a fallacy? I'm sure many Macedonians living in Macedonia are actively advocating for the old flag to be reinstated, but surely this cannot be said for everyone.

Do you really think that if all Macedonians were truly aware of the implications of the ventilator they would embrace is like they do? I don't think so.

What's with the sudden drastic change? One day you were preaching how Macedonians in Macedonia need to wake up and be educated, yet now you are saying that it is a fallacy to categorise between those who are aware and those who aren't in regards to the introduction of the ventilator.

I hope Gruevski didn't use one of his famous telephone calls to tell you to be a little more lenient on the Macedonians back home.

[Vangelovski]

I made it clear that some Macedonians are unaware of the true implications of the ventilator. How is it a fallacy? I'm sure many Macedonians living in Macedonia are actively advocating for the old flag to be reinstated, but surely this cannot be said for everyone.

Do you really think that if all Macedonians were truly aware of the implications of the ventilator they would embrace is like they do? I don't think so.

What's with the sudden drastic change? One day you were preaching how Macedonians in Macedonia need to wake up and be educated, yet now you are saying that it is a fallacy to categorise between those who are aware and those who aren't in regards to the introduction of the ventilator.

I hope Gruevski didn't use one of his famous telephone calls to tell you to be a little more lenient on the Macedonians back home.

EM, I think you'll find that I have not advocated "education", but rather 'drawing a line' and forcing people to make a choice. I think that if you look at the situation closely, you will see that all adults are capable of making the right decision, the problem is most choose not to.

To claim that adult Macedonians in the republic are unaware of the what the ventilator is is both wrong and irresponsible. Unless they have been living in a cave for the past 15 years, it is impossible for them not to know the circumstances surrounding the ventilator. The problem lies in the worldviews and loyalties that they have chosen. It is irresponsible to nanny those who have made the wrong choice (as some advocate here) because it diminishes their individual and collective responsibility, that they alone hold.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Do you really think that if all Macedonians were truly aware of the implications of the ventilator they would embrace is like they do? I don't think so.

EM, which implications exactly do you think they aren't aware of?

[EgejskaMakedonia]

EM, I think you'll find that I have not advocated "education", but rather 'drawing a line' and forcing people to make a choice. I think that if you look at the situation closely, you will see that all adults are capable of making the right decision, the problem is most choose not to.

To claim that adult Macedonians in the republic are unaware of the what the ventilator is is both wrong and irresponsible. Unless they have been living in a cave for the past 15 years, it is impossible for them not to know the circumstances surrounding the ventilator. The problem lies in the worldviews and loyalties that they have chosen. It is irresponsible to nanny those who have made the wrong choice (as some advocate here) because it diminishes their individual and collective responsibility, that they alone hold.

What of the Macedonian citizens who have been born into a state that advertises the ventilator as their national symbol? This generation is the future of Macedonia and their views are just as important as those who witnessed first hand the flag being changed.
Don't simply assume that all 'adult Macedonians' are informed and know the difference between right and wrong. There is most likely a small minority that still embraces Yugoslavia and that particular flag. Lets not forget that 'brainwashing' is a very powerful tool. We have seen first hand what propaganda and years of exposure to a certain ideology can do to people. Look no further than grkomani, srbomani, etc. The Macedonians in Macedonia are not safeguarded by such tools, and they have been brought up to accept the new flag and treat it as their national symbol.
To suggest that all adult Macedonians have a sound understanding of the implications yet choose not to act upon them is a bit of an overstatement. There are many that would despise the flag as it symbolises capitulation and the erosion of Macedonian sovereignty and identity, but there are also those who do not think beyond the box and see the ventilator on a two-dimensional level.

Many grkomani would certainly know of the atrocities committed against the Macedonian people, but is it their choice to identify as Greek or have they been assimilated? Having such people in my family and having met some of them overseas, I'm quite confident that it's the latter. Macedonians in the republic are not exempt from the same circumstances.

[EgejskaMakedonia]

EM, which implications exactly do you think they aren't aware of?

If individuals on this forum are confident in asking members to familiarise themselves with the IA and implication of the ventilator, what makes the Macedonians in Macedonia any different from such unawareness.

If each and every Macedonian that was alive during the flag change truly understood and acknowledged the consequences surrounding the introduction of the ventilator, I highly doubt we would see Macedonians today flying the flag proudly, kissing and embracing it in the way that some Macedonians do.

Either they never fully understood the implications of the ventilator, or they have been brainwashed to love and use the 8-ray sun as a new Macedonian symbol.

[Vangelovski]

What of the Macedonian citizens who have been born into a state that advertises the ventilator as their national symbol?

I was referring to adults, but now that you have brought up minors, what of them? Are you claiming they, once adults, are incapable of independent thought?

This generation is the future of Macedonia and their views are just as important as those who witnessed first hand the flag being changed.

Which views are you referring to?

Don't simply assume that all 'adult Macedonians' are informed and know the difference between right and wrong.

All adults know the difference between 'right' and 'wrong' unless they are mentally incapacitated.

There is most likely a small minority that still embraces Yugoslavia and that particular flag.

And? What is your point in relation to this discussion?

Lets not forget that 'brainwashing' is a very powerful tool. We have seen first hand what propaganda and years of exposure to a certain ideology can do to people. Look no further than grkomani, srbomani, etc. The Macedonians in Macedonia are not safeguarded by such tools, and they have been brought up to accept the new flag and treat it as their national symbol.

Adult Macedonians are fully aware of what the ventilator is, they need to make a choice on whether to exercise their own freedom or allow themselves to be dominated by their enemies.

To suggest that all adult Macedonians have a sound understanding of the implications yet choose not to act upon them is a bit of an overstatement. There are many that would despise the flag as it symbolises capitulation and the erosion of Macedonian sovereignty and identity, but there are also those who do not think beyond the box and see the ventilator on a two-dimensional level.

EM, I'm not sure of your age, but an adult does not have the luxury of claiming ignorance. In fact, in most legal systems, ignorance is not a defence for criminal liability.

Many grkomani would certainly know of the atrocities committed against the Macedonian people, but is it their choice to identify as Greek or have they been assimilated? Having such people in my family and having met some of them overseas, I'm quite confident that it's the latter. Macedonians in the republic are not exempt from the same circumstances.

I hardly think that the overt oppression experienced by Macedonians under Greek occupation is a relevant analogy to the apathetic approach the Macedonians within the republic have taken over the past 20 years.