Ventilator

[EgejskaMakedonia]

Just in case you missed it the first time.

But I think you have made a good decision and your efforts will be credible now.

I hope now that this change may bring the closure we seek to this . I have 'compromised' and eliminated any potential sign of the ventilator in my avatar. And although I do not feel that I have changed, or my knowledge has been revolutionised, at least it does not permit an unprecedented attack on my true values and beliefs. I will say though that I did enjoy the debate against a kingpin.

To be honest mate, I think it is a line that needs to be drawn. You can't support the ventilator and claim to be a true Macedonian patriot, it's an oxymoron. Sure, people live this contradiction day in and day out, and although they may be ideologically sound for most other things, this specific point really is a big let down. If we don't start drawing a sharp distinction then the waters become even more muddy. Don't you agree?

EM, over the last couple of days you have demonstrated that you have thick skin and are able to debate. Good for you, and good to see you becoming more vocal and active. Vangelovski is as passionate as the rest of us, and while his method of delivery may not be palatable to some, don't mistake that for some desire of his to endlessly argue with people on the forum. He has been involved in Macedonian activism for a while now, and in terms of ideology he is flawless. Does his non-nonsense approach take anything away from that fact? I don't think so. He is definetly somebody that I would rather have on our side. I think a lot of what he says is misinterpreted because on an internet forum people cannot gauge sentiment, sarcasm, etc that accurately until they actually get to know an individual better. I have met him in person, he still talks the same as he writes, but doesn't come across the same as some have perceived him here. I have used this example in the past and I will bring it up again: I used to argue and debate with Vangelovski in the same manner that some of you do now, I used to let his sharp and at times seemingly rude manner get to me, until I started looking past that and realised that he shares the same frustration relative to Macedonian matters that the rest of us do, and that if one comes back with something consistent and solid, they will quickly realise how their opinions will align.

The only solution is to reject the ventilator in all cases, and encourage other Macedonians to do the same. If there are some who are deviating from this line, even slightly, then it is they who are causing divisions and not those that adhere to principle.

I don't think he is trying to throw you to the other side of the court. The only person that can do that is the individual themselves. He is trying to persuade you to be consistent in your approach. You require little education on these matters as it is apparent to me that you are already well versed with the Macedonian Cause. People like yourself are already on our side, we just need you to be as consistent as we are to strengthen the message to others.

I'm still not sure you understand the point I was trying to make SoM. It is a little difficult to explain in clear terms. A line can most certainly be drawn between those who support the ventilator and those who do not. Whether one is a Macedonian patriot or not can to a degree be associated with their stance on the ventilator, that is fair enough. It most definitely is a big let down, but I'd consider protecting the name for example, as the paramount concern today. We have already lost a great flag, and to have any hope to one day reinstate Macedonia's rightful flag, we must ensure that we are still Macedonia, and still identify as Macedonians.

The line I am referring to is as you point out, between pro-ventilator and anti-ventilator advocates. But there is an extra line that I feel is being drawn to create a division between anti-ventilator Macedonians. It is an unnecessary division as both 'groups' realise the implication of the ventilator. The approach taken to rectify the unfortunate situation is where the sub-division is drawn, and that is evident in these last 5 pages or so.

Don't let the debate fool you, I have no personal prejudice against Vangelovski. I know he is a very pro-active and involved Macedonian who is doing what he does for the right reasons. I don't doubt that. My problem arose from a number of pedantic arguments and actions which I disagree with, and I wasn't prepared to give in and appease an individual based on their position in the forum. The Macedonian people need to have the same mentality and stand up to the seemingly 'powerful' government, when really they aren't. The people have the power. Tom is obviously not a dictator or working against his people, but like I said, I'm in no position to let him have the last laugh.

[Vangelovski]

I hope now that this change may bring the closure we seek to this . I have 'compromised' and eliminated any potential sign of the ventilator in my avatar. And although I do not feel that I have changed, or my knowledge has been revolutionised, at least it does not permit an unprecedented attack on my true values and beliefs. I will say though that I did enjoy the debate against a kingpin.

You may not 'feel' like anything has changed, but now you are setting an example that others can look up to and follow.

As for 'feelings', you should ignore them. The more of an example you set, the harsher and more venomous the criticism from vassal lapdogs (those who for one reason or another have aligned themselves to our treasonous politicians) will become. This is why you should measure your actions against principle and not feelings, because feelings are never nice.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I'm still not sure you understand the point I was trying to make SoM. It is a little difficult to explain in clear terms.

I understand your point EM but you need to understand that if divisions are being caused over the ventilator it is because some of us do not accept it while others are prepared to in some circumstances. Either you are principled on the ventilator issue or you're not. It is a clear-cut case and it doesn't have to be difficult, unless people make it.

It most definitely is a big let down, but I'd consider protecting the name for example, as the paramount concern today.

In my opinion, it is all part and parcel of the same issue. Both the name and our flag are equally as important, not being principled on either issue betrays the Macedonian Cause, but no only that, it betrays a persons self-respect, integrity and dignity - having to accept imposed elements and then being expected to embrace them. The Macedonian struggle is larger than just the name. I have contemplated the step-by-step process you're suggesting, but I only see two steps here: one is addressing matters relating to Interim Accord, the other is addressing the Framework Agreement.

Don't let the debate fool you, I have no personal prejudice against Vangelovski.

Lol, come on mate, I don't fool so easily. I tell it how I see it. I am glad you don't have any personal prejudice against him, and even if you did, you shouldn't allow that to get in the way of progress.

My problem arose from a number of pedantic arguments and actions which I disagree with, and I wasn't prepared to give in and appease an individual based on their position in the forum.

We need to be pedantic and specific on some of these issues, there is no room for error in terms of ideology. But seriously, you and certain others need to get over this delusion that Vangelovski is using his position on the forum inappropriately. I find it to be a poor and unnecessary rebuttal which takes away from the topics actually being discussed.

[EgejskaMakedonia]

I understand your point EM but you need to understand that if divisions are being caused over the ventilator it is because some of us do not accept it while others are prepared to in some circumstances. Either you are principled on the ventilator issue or you're not. It is a clear-cut case and it doesn't have to be difficult, unless people make it.

In my opinion, it is all part and parcel of the same issue. Both the name and our flag are equally as important, not being principled on either issue betrays the Macedonian Cause, but no only that, it betrays a persons self-respect, integrity and dignity - having to accept imposed elements and then being expected to embrace them. The Macedonian struggle is larger than just the name. I have contemplated the step-by-step process you're suggesting, but I only see two steps here: one is addressing matters relating to Interim Accord, the other is addressing the Framework Agreement.

Lol, come on mate, I don't fool so easily. I tell it how I see it. I am glad you don't have any personal prejudice against him, and even if you did, you shouldn't allow that to get in the way of progress.

We need to be pedantic and specific on some of these issues, there is no room for error in terms of ideology. But seriously, you and certain others need to get over this delusion that Vangelovski is using his position on the forum inappropriately. I find it to be a poor and unnecessary rebuttal which takes away from the topics actually being discussed.

Again, I believe you are misinterpreting what I'm really trying to convey here. By the divisions I specifically mean the way we resolve the issue. I made note of taking short-term steps to gain ground, while others may result to forming a new political party or igniting a resistence. All of these solutions may be implemented for the same problem, that being the ventilator and the erosion of Macedonia's sovereignty. It almost seemed as lines were being drawn between people with different solutions, but I believe we are all on the same page now.

Both are equally as important, but the difference is that the Macedonian government has already unjustly sold aspects of the Macedonian identity, such as the flag. Of course this cannot be accepted, and must be resisted, but securing the name, language and identity of the Macedonian people seems the more appropriate step before the flag is also secured. If possible it would be most beneficial if these all occurred concurrently, however many still need education on the imposition of the flag. These are the aspects of Macedonia that are currently under threat, as well as the very borders of the nation, and in order to regain what was illegally sold off by corrupt politicians, we must ensure that a stop is put to their efforts to drive Macedonia into the ground.

I'm not sure what solution would be the most effective, but it remains certain that something must be done soon, before it is too late.

By his 'position in the forum' I meant that some individuals may feel intimidated and feel reluctant to post. This may just be my own consensus, but I believe many refrained from posting in this thread yesterday as a result of not wanting to be caught up in what at the time was a seemingly endless debate. I'm trying to be positive here and whatever row that I may have had with Vangelovski at the time is now over. The issue at hand has been solved and now we must look forward to finding a viable solution to the big picture.

[Risto the Great]

EM, given we reject the IA, we must immediately reject the ventilator. The message we collectively as ideological leaders are delivering must be consistent. I can't see how we can make that a separate step in this ideological awakening.

[Bij]

EM, I really enjoyed your contributions to this thread. Thank you.

To the rest of you lot, can you please advise where one can buy kutlesh paraphernalia? I am having trouble adorning myself in this ideology when I cannot purchase anything relating to it. Here's a thought - perhaps rather than sitting on the forum and blasting people about the ventilator, you should start educating them from the ground up and build a network that will provide kutlesh imagery to be used on items from desktop backgrounds to iphone covers. I think if you're going to start a movement, you need to have it visible and readily available.

[EgejskaMakedonia]

EM, given we reject the IA, we must immediately reject the ventilator. The message we collectively as ideological leaders are delivering must be consistent. I can't see how we can make that a separate step in this ideological awakening.

That's exactly right, the approach must be consistent and the message loud and clear. But change will not be brought about in one day. The ventilator must continue to be campaigned against, but we must also ensure that our borders and name are also secure. It is crucial we maintain a stance against any threat against Macedonian sovereignty, but you cannot expect all problems to be solved in the blink of an eye, nor simultaneously. Presently, I'm far more concerned with preventing Macedonia from being unlawfully divided again, and ending all negotiations on the name in order to ultimately ensure that we will still have our own country by the name of Macedonia, for the Macedonians, for centuries to come.

This does not detract from the seriousness regarding the imposition of the ventilator, and this must be preached to all Macedonians so that they can act to reconstruct the foundations of their land.

[Vangelovski]

EM, I really enjoyed your contributions to this thread. Thank you.

To the rest of you lot, can you please advise where one can buy kutlesh paraphernalia? I am having trouble adorning myself in this ideology when I cannot purchase anything relating to it. Here's a thought - perhaps rather than sitting on the forum and blasting people about the ventilator, you should start educating them from the ground up and build a network that will provide kutlesh imagery to be used on items from desktop backgrounds to iphone covers. I think if you're going to start a movement, you need to have it visible and readily available.

Sonce paraphernalia is readily available to anyone who has made even the slightest effort to find it. I assume your from Australia? Visit your local church or go online. You may find that Aussie Macedonians don't just sit on their butt's complaining, but have already produced a wide selection of products.

[Vangelovski]

That's exactly right, the approach must be consistent and the message loud and clear. But change will not be brought about in one day. The ventilator must continue to be campaigned against, but we must also ensure that our borders and name are also secure. It is crucial we maintain a stance against any threat against Macedonian sovereignty, but you cannot expect all problems to be solved in the blink of an eye, nor simultaneously. Presently, I'm far more concerned with preventing Macedonia from being unlawfully divided again, and ending all negotiations on the name in order to ultimately ensure that we will still have our own country by the name of Macedonia, for the Macedonians, for centuries to come.

This does not detract from the seriousness regarding the imposition of the ventilator, and this must be preached to all Macedonians so that they can act to reconstruct the foundations of their land.

EM, I'm not sure how familiar you are with the Interim Accord, but it is quite simple to rid Macedonia of the ventilator, fyrom, constitutional changes forced on it by Greece and a host of other capitulations by declaring it 'null and void'. Its all part of one package.

As for Macedonia being divided by her neighbours, I don't think its a credible threat. What is more concerning is the internal Albanianisation of Macedonia through the Framework Agreement.

[Soldier of Macedon]

To the rest of you lot, can you please advise where one can buy kutlesh paraphernalia?

Have you tried getting off your horse and making an effort to at least look for one?

.......you should start educating them from the ground up and build a network that will provide kutlesh imagery to be used on items from desktop backgrounds to iphone covers. I think if you're going to start a movement, you need to have it visible and readily available.

I knew you were smarter than your opening line. Those are some good ideas. And I mean that sincerely.

It almost seemed as lines were being drawn between people with different solutions, but I believe we are all on the same page now.

Not all suggested solutions are effective or appropriate so I don't see anything wrong with categorising them accordingly. That shouldn't be perceived as drawing a line. The line is drawn between those that accept the ventilator and those that don't.

Both are equally as important, but the difference is that the Macedonian government has already unjustly sold aspects of the Macedonian identity, such as the flag. Of course this cannot be accepted, and must be resisted, but securing the name, language and identity of the Macedonian people seems the more appropriate step before the flag is also secured.

Like we have repeatedly said before, they are all part of the same deal. Get rid of the Interim Accord and that whole battle is won. Trying to re-establish the name at the UN, the language, the flag, etc all in stages will only encourage others to tell us to quit "while we're ahead because at least you can keep the name". We need to consolidate the 'front' and focus our energy on a single goal (Interim Accord) rather than making it more difficult for ourselves by trying to fight for one piece at a time and losing precious time in the process, because like you say:

I'm not sure what solution would be the most effective, but it remains certain that something must be done soon, before it is too late.

Exactly! That is why doing it in stages only makes it more difficult.

[United MKD]

As for Macedonia being divided by her neighbours, I don't think its a credible threat. What is more concerning is the internal Albanianisation of Macedonia through the Framework Agreement.

Don't you think through the Albanianisation of the Framework Agreement that it makes it a credible threat? Or it will just end up being a whole bilingual country?

[EgejskaMakedonia]

EM, I'm not sure how familiar you are with the Interim Accord, but it is quite simple to rid Macedonia of the ventilator, fyrom, constitutional changes forced on it by Greece and a host of other capitulations by declaring it 'null and void'. Its all part of one package.

As for Macedonia being divided by her neighbours, I don't think its a credible threat. What is more concerning is the internal Albanianisation of Macedonia through the Framework Agreement.

I haven't read the document in a great amount of detail, but I do know that the Macedonian government does have the right to withdraw from the IA, and the fact that 16 years on this 'agreement' is still in place says a lot about our so called 'leaders.'

I recall there was talk about the Greek side withdrawing from the agreement due to an infringement they committed, which was subsequently taken to the ICJ. It is beyond my intellectual capabilities to muster why the Macedonian government would take the Greek officials to court over not accepting them as FYR Macedonia into an organisation. However, are the Greeks still contemplating withdrawing from the agreement, or was someone just being too optimistic about an embarrassing court case?

Not all suggested solutions are effective or appropriate so I don't see anything wrong with categorising them accordingly. That shouldn't be perceived as drawing a line. The line is drawn between those that accept the ventilator and those that don't.

Like we have repeatedly said before, they are all part of the same deal. Get rid of the Interim Accord and that whole battle is won. Trying to re-establish the name at the UN, the language, the flag, etc all in stages will only encourage others to tell us to quit "while we're ahead because at least you can keep the name". We need to consolidate the 'front' and focus our energy on a single goal (Interim Accord) rather than making it more difficult for ourselves by trying to fight for one piece at a time and losing precious time in the process, because like you say:

Exactly! That is why doing it in stages only makes it more difficult.

Good points, I guess it boils down to the fact that the head needs to be cut off the snake in one decisive blow. Declaring the Interim Accord null and void does essentially solve a multitude of problems in the singular action, but that is exactly my point. There are more issues beyond the Interim Accord that need to be dealt with, whether it be the Framework Agreement, the incompetent Macedonian Government, lack of confidence of the Macedonian people. These problems all interlink and go hand in hand with eachother, but as you said, we cannot concentrate on a million different things at once, it is far more logical to strengthen our efforts in one key area, succeed, then move on to the next.
The analogy I draw here is that of Hitlers army, or any army for that matter. You cannot divide your forces into small groups expecting to overtake multiple countries or strategic positions simultaneously. To our own relief, that is exactly what Hitler did, and one key error in the process accumulated with a dozen others, ultimately bringing upon the demise of the powerhouse of the early 1940's.

The same applies here. Our goal is to undoubtedly destroy any involvement that Macedonia has with the Interim Accord, Framework Agreement, etc. Defeating each and every one of these will solve many problems, but there is more than one beast we are fighting and we cannot defeat them in a more effective manner than focusing on eliminating them one at a time.

On the bright side, you bring down the IA, you also start a domino effect that will see many other problems being solved. And perhaps once Macedonia no longer has these unlawful, self-imposed 'restrictions' on its name and flag, the people will begin to feel that Macedonia has once again become an independent state, free from both external and internal treachery.

[EgejskaMakedonia]

In regards to purchasing products displaying the 16-ray Macedonian sun, you can find some flags and such on ebay for decent prices. What I've really had trouble finding though is a Macedonian flag with the design in the middle, or as many call it the kutlesh sun. Genuine soccer jumpers are also very rare, even in Macedonia, from what I've heard.

Definitely a possible small niche market for things such as these. I wouldn't mind purchasing one of these from somewhere.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/850/makebaypic.jpg/sr=1

These ones have sold on ebay before but only pop up every now and then. The plain 16-ray sun is definitely on ebay if someone is interested.

[Vangelovski]

Don't you think through the Albanianisation of the Framework Agreement that it makes it a credible threat? Or it will just end up being a whole bilingual country?

The way things are going, I think Macedonia is more likely to become an Albanian state rather than be divided up amongst its neighbours.

[julie]

I turned Macedonia upside down for soccer guernseys for my boys with the Macedonian 16 ray sonce, rare like hens teeth, and had to settle for T-shirts instead
In regards to paraphernalia with the 16 ray sonce, there is definitely a niche in the market here in Oz, and would have saved a fortune in excess luggage coming home