Ventilator

[EgejskaMakedonia]

Noone told you not to use example. I told you that I don't need to consult with others to know what is blatantly obvious.

We need to practice what we preach - we can't 'educate' people and then use the ventilator as if its all good. Its not.

I made it clear in a previous post why it is reasonable to assume that it is the ventilator in your avatar and not a coincidence.

Others may disagree, but I find it hard to take you seriously when you claim to understand what the ventilator is and yet display it in your avatar.

Your resulting to flawed attacks on an individual. To be honest, I have not paid attention to my avatar since I uploaded it, and of course today. It isn't reasonable to assume it is the ventilator, and even if it was used, it is not clearly shown as such in the avatar. You fail to realise that the 16-ray sun and the rightful name of Macedonia is at the fore-front of the image, however perhaps you are indeed blinded and prone only to searching for negativity. You cannot just assume something and use it as the base of an attack against someone who has made their position vitally clear. I will alter the avatar for your own self-fulfillment, and hopefully you may find some closure to such ridiculous accusations.

I also find it extremely difficult to take you seriously on this issue as well, despite your prominent ranking in the MTO. How can you possibly argue against abuse of power and the forceful implementation of a symbol against the will of the people, when you yourself imposed 'bozo the clown' as a members avatar, against the will and beyond the control of the individual. Not once, but twice.

You have still failed to respond to that point, and frankly I see it as far more distasteful than accusing someone for having supposedly the ventilator in their avatar.

Take it on the chin and accept your responsibility as a mod, no different to the notion of a responsible and representative government.

[Vangelovski]

Your resulting to flawed attacks on an individual. To be honest, I have not paid attention to my avatar since I uploaded it, and of course today. It isn't reasonable to assume it is the ventilator, and even if it was used, it is not clearly shown as such in the avatar. You fail to realise that the 16-ray sun and the rightful name of Macedonia is at the fore-front of the image, however perhaps you are indeed blinded and prone only to searching for negativity. You cannot just assume something and use it as the base of an attack against someone who has made their position vitally clear. I will alter the avatar for your own self-fulfillment, and hopefully you may find some closure to such ridiculous accusations.

I also find it extremely difficult to take you seriously on this issue as well, despite your prominent ranking in the MTO. How can you possibly argue against abuse of power and the forceful implementation of a symbol against the will of the people, when you yourself imposed 'bozo the clown' as a members avatar, against the will and beyond the control of the individual. Not once, but twice.

You have still failed to respond to that point, and frankly I see it as far more distasteful than accusing someone for having supposedly the ventilator in their avatar.

Take it on the chin and accept your responsibility as a mod, no different to the notion of a responsible and representative government.

Why isn't it reasonable to assume it is the ventilator? I am interested to hear your reasoning. I provided my reasons as to why it is reasonable to assume that it is. Don't take it down because you feel I'm "attacking" you. I'm merely pointing out the irony. You should take your time and only take it down when/because you accept the ventilator is an attack on Macedonian freedom and you disagree with that.

You obviously were not following the events with our friend fyrOM. As for Helvetica, I did respond to that. Helvetica is an Albanian troll. You should read his posts more carefully. Those who have taken the time to aquint themselves with Albanian nationalism over the past century, and in particular the past 20-30 years, will be quite familiar with the ideas he was putting forward. It becomes much clearer when you swap "Macedonian" for "Albanian" and vice versa in his posts. Besides, as Administrator's, we have access to other information that he has provided during registration which makes me certain he is not Macedonian.

But I have conferred with the other Admins and it has been agreed that a process should be in place for those situations.

[EgejskaMakedonia]

Why isn't it reasonable to assume it is the ventilator? I am interested to hear your reasoning. I provided my reasons as to why it is reasonable to assume that it is. Don't take it down because you feel I'm "attacking" you. I'm merely pointing out the irony. You should take your time and only take it down when/because you accept the ventilator is an attack on Macedonian freedom and you disagree with that.

You obviously were not following the events with our friend fyrOM. As for Helvetica, I did respond to that. Helvetica is an Albanian troll. You should read his posts more carefully. Those who have taken the time to aquint themselves with Albanian nationalism over the past century, and in particular the past 20-30 years, will be quite familiar with the ideas he was putting forward. It becomes much clearer when you swap "Macedonian" for "Albanian" and vice versa in his posts. Besides, as Administrator's, we have access to other information that he has provided during registration which makes me certain he is not Macedonian.

But I have conferred with the other Admins and it has been agreed that a process should be in place for those situations.

You preach the need to educate and unite Macedonians, yet here you are, continually finding any reason to convince yourself that I am a supporter of the ventilator. Whilst on the other hand, you are quick to dismiss and sweep under the carpet your own mishaps.

I have never seen the ventilator in Macedonia in the shape or form of my avatar. Anything that merely resembles a sun ray is now labelled as anti-Macedonian according to you. Only a pessimistic and negative thinker would form the belief that the avatar represents the ventilator. Perhaps it was used to create the image, maybe the Japanese sun was used, or maybe a 'normal' sun ray was utilised. If you feel so strongly against it, where were you two years ago to suggest the avatar was wrong, why were you so passive at this stage? Were you a pro-ventilator supporter? I find this quite ironic in itself. If you have always been so pure and 'unblinded' by the sun, why wasn't I met with such accusations at an earlier stage. The reason why is because you are simply looking for cheap arguments to discredit someone who is obviously against the ventilator. I won't bother repeating my stance on the issue as you don't seem to take any notice.

I don't care what OziMak or Helvetica did to offend people on this forum. Regardless if one is Albanian, Greek, Macedonian, or from any ethnic group for that matter. If your prepared to allow them to join the discussion on this board, then you must also be prepared to respond in the appropriate manner if forum rules are broken. To alter someones name or avatar for the reason that they are an Albanian troll or FYROM sympathiser is a completely bullshit excuse. If they breached the forum rules, then they should be dealt with appropriately, not through mockery. The events with these past members should not have even occurred, but it was your decision to add fuel to the fire and allow them to keep posting for your own amusement. If they breach forum rules ban them, simple. But don't go against everything you preach and impose a NAME and SYMBOL against an individual AGAINST their own will. They may be a complete idiot, but that does not warrant you an excuse to act in an unprofessional manner.

For me, repeated, intentional actions such as those are far worse and against the principles behind the Macedonian cause more than having something that resembles 1/10 of the ventilator, with no substantial proof or evidence to suggest that my motives were in support of the ventilator when uploading this avatar.

I'd love to see your assumptions in court, free entertainment!

[Soldier of Macedon]

I'm referring to the individuals who are unaware or passive in their understanding of the ventilator.

Those who are unaware can be forgiven for not knowing any better - although, I find it hard to believe that many Macedonians wouldn't be aware of the fact that our flag has been changed by force. Those that remain passive either don't care that their national symbol has been taken from them and replaced by an artificial alternative, or they just don't care about macedonian matters altogether. The specific issue itself isn't complicated, in fact it is rather straight forward, so I am not sure if I can buy the excuse of 'not understanding' for too long from any individual.

Once they are fully informed of the implications and know the consequences of their actions, it is up to their own consciousness to decide whether they will acknowledge their mistakes and jump on to support the cause.

It doesn't take a great thinker to realise that promoting an imposed symbol like the ventilator has negative implications. Macedonians (in the republic) are smart people, they know the consequences, they just don't see it as important and in-depth as we do. And that has a lot to do with the flawed ideology and phoney identity that successive macedonian governments have been developing since independence. The people, even though they may feel it is not entirely appropriate, continue to use the ventilator because it has been promoted as the 'norm'. Relying on them to acknowledge the damage they themselves are causing is wishful thinking in many cases. They need ideological leadership to break down their current perception and build up the confidence to go against the actions of the government. The transition will not be easy for many of them. The message needs to be 'in their face', so to speak, for them to take any real notice - and it needs to come from people in Macedonia itself.

If they choose to remain ignorant to the facts, then that is their own problem to rectify.

But it also becomes our problem as their actions have a negative impact on the Macedonian Cause. I therefore have little sympathy for the sensitivities of such types when it comes to these matters.

It is fair to draw divisions on the issue of the ventilator, between opposing sides, BUT not against those who are on your side.

If that is the case, then the onus is on those on our side to realise the damage they are doing to the Macedonian Cause by accepting the ventilator. If they continue to accept it, in what way are they on our side?

[Vangelovski]

You preach the need to educate and unite Macedonians, yet here you are, continually finding any reason to convince yourself that I am a supporter of the ventilator. Whilst on the other hand, you are quick to dismiss and sweep under the carpet your own mishaps.

I stated my reasons for why it is reasonable to assume that your avatar has the ventilator. I'll restate them here:

1. They are the right shape rays, the right number of rays and in the right place to reasonably depict the ventilator;

2. Considering the theme of your avatar is Macedonia, it would be unreasonable to think that it is the Japanese rising sun as opposed to the ventilator; and

3. Many graphic designers incorporate the ventilator into their "patriotic" pictures.

Perhaps you will actually make an effort to state why you think it is unreasonable to assume that it is the ventilator as opposed to just rambling on about the Japanese rising sun?

I have an idea, rather than pretending that your avatar does not have the ventilator, maybe you could consider the matter a little further before you continue to make a mockery out of our principled stand against Greek oppression.

I don't care what OziMak or Helvetica did to offend people on this forum.

We do.

[EgejskaMakedonia]

Those who are unaware can be forgiven for not knowing any better - although, I find it hard to believe that many Macedonians wouldn't be aware of the fact that our flag has been changed by force. Those that remain passive either don't care that their national symbol has been taken from them and replaced by an artificial alternative, or they just don't care about macedonian matters altogether. The specific issue itself isn't complicated, in fact it is rather straight forward, so I am not sure if I can buy the excuse of 'not understanding' for too long from any individual.

It doesn't take a great thinker to realise that promoting an imposed symbol like the ventilator has negative implications. Macedonians (in the republic) are smart people, they know the consequences, they just don't see it as important and in-depth as we do. And that has a lot to do with the flawed ideology and phoney identity that successive macedonian governments have been developing since independence. The people, even though they may feel it is not entirely appropriate, continue to use the ventilator because it has been promoted as the 'norm'. Relying on them to acknowledge the damage they themselves are causing is wishful thinking in many cases. They need ideological leadership to break down their current perception and build up the confidence to go against the actions of the government. The transition will not be easy for many of them. The message needs to be 'in their face', so to speak, for them to take any real notice - and it needs to come from people in Macedonia itself.

But it also becomes our problem as their actions have a negative impact on the Macedonian Cause. I therefore have little sympathy for the sensitivities of such types when it comes to these matters.

If that is the case, then the onus is on those on our side to realise the damage they are doing to the Macedonian Cause by accepting the ventilator. If they continue to accept it, in what way are they on our side?

I agree with most of your points SoM, but in regards to my last comment I was referring to the line drawn between those who support the ventilator and those who oppose it. The further divisions between those who are on our side is directed at Vangelovski's evidently hostile attitude towards individuals such as myself. All of those people on that side of the line are against the ventilator and understand both its history and implications, yet another internal line is being drawn within this faction to distance those with a slightly differing view on potential solution or perhaps even on the basis of a large misunderstanding. From what I've seen, Tom is essentially trying to throw me to the other side of the court, with all the ventilator advocates, despite making my opposition for the imposed flag distinct and clear. This is not the right attitude to present if one is willing to educate and build both numbers and momentum for the Macedonian cause.

[EgejskaMakedonia]

I stated my reasons for why it is reasonable to assume that your avatar has the ventilator. I'll restate them here:

1. They are the right shape rays, the right number of rays and in the right place to reasonably depict the ventilator;

2. Considering the theme of your avatar is Macedonia, it would be unreasonable to think that it is the Japanese rising sun as opposed to the ventilator; and

3. Many graphic designers incorporate the ventilator into their "patriotic" pictures.

Perhaps you will actually make an effort to state why you think it is unreasonable to assume that it is the ventilator as opposed to just rambling on about the Japanese rising sun?

I have an idea, rather than pretending that your avatar does not have the ventilator, maybe you could consider the matter a little further before you continue to make a mockery out of our principled stand against Greek oppression.

We do.

Ever heard of the terms mens rea (guilty mind) and actus reus (guilty act)? Seems unlikely with your sense of logic. I did not realise at the time I uploaded the image that the ventilator may be present in the background, nor was my intention to advertise the ventilator and force it upon fellow members. Provided that you strongly believe that this image in its entirety resembles the ventilator, I may have committed the guilty act, but the motive was not present.

Graphic designers will tend to incorporate a range of images to convey their art, not only those relevant to the theme. A sun is a sun, you cannot assume that the Japanese rising sun would not be used in Macedonian 'patriotic' pictures.
As for your third point, when I photoshopped Macedonian pictures a few years ago, I often did include the ventilator in my work. But as I stated in one of my earlier posts, at this time I was aware of Greece's oppression and forceful influence on the new flag, but not of the unlawful Macedonian government bowing down to such demands and illegally imposing a flag on its people.

How am I making a mockery out of MTO's stance against Greek oppression? That comment is just another piece of unsubstantiated bullshit from Tom's book of accusations. As far as I'm concerned, we were on the same page of this debate until you decided to nit-pick irrelevant information to fuel your 'always right' ego.

Gee, I hope you aren't THE Tom Vangelovski that is listed as a co-founder of UMD...otherwise your history may be just as reputable as my 'so called' two year history with the avatar that is a 100% replica of the ventilator.

I know you do, and I also take offence to any insults dished out by these former members. But the way they were 'dealt with' was a clear breach of your powers and as I said earlier, no different to that of the past and present Macedonian governments.

[Vangelovski]

Ever heard of the terms mens rea (guilty mind) and actus reus (guilty act)? Seems unlikely with your sense of logic. I did not realise at the time I uploaded the image that the ventilator may be present in the background, nor was my intention to advertise the ventilator and force it upon fellow members. Provided that you strongly believe that this image in its entirety resembles the ventilator, I may have committed the guilty act, but the motive was not present.

You did not realise at the time. No one is disputing that. But you claim to know now.

Graphic designers will tend to incorporate a range of images to convey their art, not only those relevant to the theme. A sun is a sun, you cannot assume that the Japanese rising sun would not be used in Macedonian 'patriotic' pictures.

That is an example of you making a mockery of MTO Inc.'s principled stand. Claiming that someone would use the Japanese rising sun in Macedonian "patriotic" art and that your avatar is one of those instances. If you genuinely believe it is the Japanese rising sun, then why would you use it? Its just as bad as Helvetica's Swiss flag draped over a map of Macedonia.

As for your third point, when I photoshopped Macedonian pictures a few years ago, I often did include the ventilator in my work. But as I stated in one of my earlier posts, at this time I was aware of Greece's oppression and forceful influence on the new flag, but not of the unlawful Macedonian government bowing down to such demands and illegally imposing a flag on its people

Again, no one is disputing that fact that you were not aware of it before. But you now claim to be aware of it.

How am I making a mockery out of MTO's stance against Greek oppression? That comment is just another piece of unsubstantiated bullshit from Tom's book of accusations. As far as I'm concerned, we were on the same page of this debate until you decided to nit-pick irrelevant information to fuel your 'always right' ego.

Is that your preferred method of 'educating' others about the ventilator. Tell them the ventilator is bad, but then use it yourself?

Gee, I hope you aren't THE Tom Vangelovski that is listed as a co-founder of UMD...otherwise your history may be just as reputable as my 'so called' two year history with the avatar that is a 100% replica of the ventilator.

Read above. But on this point, you obviously have no idea of what UMD's founding principles were and how/when they went to the dogs.

I know you do, and I also take offence to any insults dished out by these former members. But the way they were 'dealt with' was a clear breach of your powers and as I said earlier, no different to that of the past and present Macedonian governments.

Please tell me more about my "powers". I would like to know what they are and how I can use them more effectively

[EgejskaMakedonia]

You did not realise at the time. No one is disputing that. But you claim to know now.

Claim to know? Anyone who has read my arguments would surely realise that I am against the ventilator, however by this stage you obviously have trouble processing such a contention. How can you possibly base such an opinion on such flawed evidence. This image was uploaded 2 years ago and has not even caught my attention for months on end. You seem to have an unhealthy obsession with establishing that the picture of the lion is identical to the ventilator. As far as I'm concerned the ventilator is not distinct enough for anyone to label so. There is no red background, there are not 8 rays, there is no distinct shape, therefore although the ventilator may have been used, it is not represented in its entirety and thus does not represent it. Has the ventilator all of a sudden claimed a monopoly over sun rays?

That is an example of you making a mockery of MTO Inc.'s principled stand. Claiming that someone would use the Japanese rising sun in Macedonian "patriotic" art and that your avatar is one of those instances. If you genuinely believe it is the Japanese rising sun, then why would you use it? Its just as bad as Helvetica's Swiss flag draped over a map of Macedonia.

It is not a mockery, because the Japanese rising sun would not be used for its purpose. Part of the image may be used and faded into the background to portray a sunrise. I've used Machester United badges and emblems for Macedonian pictures. Any picture that works well with the theme can be edited to serve its desired purpose, not its original purpose. Helvetica's Swiss flag is different, as it has a clear message and motive. The two features of this image conveyed one collective message, which was unacceptable. I'd hate to bring others unwillingly into this discussion but what do you think of Kafana's avatar? (I'm sure there are others but his springs to mind). The Macedonian sun on the Canadian flag, is this acceptable? I personally don't see a major issue and it definitely differs to Helvetica's avatar, but nevertheless there's a further thought for a pedantic individual.

Again, no one is disputing that fact that you were not aware of it before. But you now claim to be aware of it.

Why wouldn't I be aware of it? I had a brief understanding two years ago, and my knowledge has only improved since. Only explanation for those apparently non-existent two years where I failed to learn a single concept would be if I had invented the time machine. But let me assure you, if I had, there would be no such thing as the ventilator.

Is that your preferred method of 'educating' others about the ventilator. Tell them the ventilator is bad, but then use it yourself?

I don't recall educating fellow Macedonians two years ago in regards to the ventilator, let alone posting regularly on this forum. Nor do I recall unintentionally 'promoting' the flag ever since those early days of my membership here on this board.

Read above. But on this point, you obviously have no idea of what UMD's founding principles were and how/when they went to the dogs.

Another complete contradiction. You seem to associate my past with a present-day lack of understanding for the ventilator, yet you are quick to disassociate yourself with the subsequent actions of UMD since you left. It is obvious that your intentions when co-founding the organisation were in the right place and I assume that you relinquished your membership for the right reasons. You've moved on and no longer want to be associated with such a dire organisation, yet here you are connecting me with an avatar uploaded upon my arrival in January 2010. Hypocrisy at its best.

Please tell me more about my "powers". I would like to know what they are and how I can use them more effectively

It is best that you 'consult' Bozo the Clown for that information, but from what I've gathered, for you, the most effective way to use your powers would probably be not to use them at all.

[Vangelovski]

Claim to know? Anyone who has read my arguments would surely realise that I am against the ventilator, however by this stage you obviously have trouble processing such a contention. How can you possibly base such an opinion on such flawed evidence. This image was uploaded 2 years ago and has not even caught my attention for months on end. You seem to have an unhealthy obsession with establishing that the picture of the lion is identical to the ventilator. As far as I'm concerned the ventilator is not distinct enough for anyone to label so. There is no red background, there are not 8 rays, there is no distinct shape, therefore although the ventilator may have been used, it is not represented in its entirety and thus does not represent it. Has the ventilator all of a sudden claimed a monopoly over sun rays?


It is not a mockery, because the Japanese rising sun would not be used for its purpose. Part of the image may be used and faded into the background to portray a sunrise. I've used Machester United badges and emblems for Macedonian pictures. Any picture that works well with the theme can be edited to serve its desired purpose, not its original purpose. Helvetica's Swiss flag is different, as it has a clear message and motive. The two features of this image conveyed one collective message, which was unacceptable. I'd hate to bring others unwillingly into this discussion but what do you think of Kafana's avatar? (I'm sure there are others but his springs to mind). The Macedonian sun on the Canadian flag, is this acceptable? I personally don't see a major issue and it definitely differs to Helvetica's avatar, but nevertheless there's a further thought for a pedantic individual.



Why wouldn't I be aware of it? I had a brief understanding two years ago, and my knowledge has only improved since. Only explanation for those apparently non-existent two years where I failed to learn a single concept would be if I had invented the time machine. But let me assure you, if I had, there would be no such thing as the ventilator.



I don't recall educating fellow Macedonians two years ago in regards to the ventilator, let alone posting regularly on this forum. Nor do I recall unintentionally 'promoting' the flag ever since those early days of my membership here on this board.


Another complete contradiction. You seem to associate my past with a present-day lack of understanding for the ventilator, yet you are quick to disassociate yourself with the subsequent actions of UMD since you left. It is obvious that your intentions when co-founding the organisation were in the right place and I assume that you relinquished your membership for the right reasons. You've moved on and no longer want to be associated with such a dire organisation, yet here you are connecting me with an avatar uploaded upon my arrival in January 2010. Hypocrisy at its best.


It is best that you 'consult' Bozo the Clown for that information, but from what I've gathered, for you, the most effective way to use your powers would probably be not to use them at all.

EM, in all of this, you have made quite a ridiculous defence of the ventilator in your avatar. I'm more than certain that if we held a poll, the vast majority of the forum users would identify it as the ventilator and not the Japanese rising sun. That is why I'm of the view that you either still don't get it, or your just too stubborn to admit that you have the ventilator in your avatar.

No one is claiming that you are actively promoting the ventilator, but you are still promoting it by having it in your avatar. What has become pathetic is your ridiculous defence that its not the ventilator, but some form of Japanese rising sun. That only begs even more questions as to why you would use the Japanese rising sun, but we both know that is not the case.

Makedonska Kafana is Canadian. Are you Japanese?

Your analogy with UMD is irrelevant. My association with them has ended. Your avatar still contains the ventilator.

[EgejskaMakedonia]

EM, in all of this, you have made quite a ridiculous defence of the ventilator in your avatar. I'm more than certain that if we held a poll, the vast majority of the forum users would identify it as the ventilator and not the Japanese rising sun. That is why I'm of the view that you either still don't get it, or your just too stubborn to admit that you have the ventilator in your avatar.

No one is claiming that you are actively promoting the ventilator, but you are still promoting it by having it in your avatar. What has become pathetic is your ridiculous defence that its not the ventilator, but some form of Japanese rising sun. That only begs even more questions as to why you would use the Japanese rising sun, but we both know that is not the case.

Makedonska Kafana is Canadian. Are you Japanese?

Your analogy with UMD is irrelevant. My association with them has ended. Your avatar still contains the ventilator.

Wow, I never denied the prospect that it may be the ventilator, nor did I assert that it was the Japanese rising sun. My point was that it could be anything, and judging on the WHOLE picture, it represents a lion with the Macedonian 16-ray sun and rightful name of the country. Those details are clear, yet the 'half-ventilator' if it is even that is not symbolic of the true intentions or physical appearance of the 8-ray ventilator that has plagued Macedonia.

What if I were to put a 16-ray Macedonian sun on a map of Australia or the Australian flag, is this still acceptable?

Your association has not ended, as your name is still embroiled as one of the co-founders, no different to how this avatar is still present despite not realising its existence for the most part when I post.

Please do not accuse me of being stubborn, when you are acting like a completely obnoxious individual. Amazes me how one Macedonian attempts to convince another that they are anti-Macedonian.

[Vangelovski]

Wow, I never denied the prospect that it may be the ventilator, nor did I assert that it was the Japanese rising sun. My point was that it could be anything, and judging on the WHOLE picture, it represents a lion with the Macedonian 16-ray sun and rightful name of the country. Those details are clear, yet the 'half-ventilator' if it is even that is not symbolic of the true intentions or physical appearance of the 8-ray ventilator that has plagued Macedonia.

What if I were to put a 16-ray Macedonian sun on a map of Australia or the Australian flag, is this still acceptable?

Your association has not ended, as your name is still embroiled as one of the co-founders, no different to how this avatar is still present despite not realising its existence for the most part when I post.

Please do not accuse me of being stubborn, when you are acting like a completely obnoxious individual. Amazes me how one Macedonian attempts to convince another that they are anti-Macedonian.

No one is trying to convince you that you are anti-Macedonian. I'm merely trying to educate you, as you suggested the MTO should.

You seem to be having trouble with your analogy. My association with UMD has ended. The fact that I was a co-founder cannot be changed. Your avatar sill contains the ventilator. Although the fact that you have used it cannot be changed, you can stop using it and end your association with it.

The key word for the day: association -to keep company, as a friend, companion, or ally: He was accused of associating with known criminals.

I'm using it in the active sense, meaning one can cease to be associated with something or someone.

[EgejskaMakedonia]

No one is trying to convince you that you are anti-Macedonian. I'm merely trying to educate you, as you suggested the MTO should.

You seem to be having trouble with your analogy. My association with UMD has ended. The fact that I was a co-founder cannot be changed. Your avatar sill contains the ventilator. Although the fact that you have used it cannot be changed, you can stop using it and end your association with it.

I hope this alteration in my avatar does not add to your blindness. Perhaps it will suffice for the time being once I go off to ponder about my 'loyalty to the ventilator.'

According to you, my association has now ended. I have been educated and cleansed in the time span on 10 minutes. You are definitely an inspiration to us all, and god bless bozo the clown for giving us the gift to laugh this matter off...after all, your always right, right?

My word of the day is:
abuse- Use (something) to bad effect or for a bad purpose; misuse
- the judge abused his power by imposing the fines

Something that I'm sure the Macedonian government and you are quite skilled in. But hey, it's not everyday you get to change the flag and name of your country. Perhaps next time I'll remove only one of the only 4 rays present, or change my account name to avoid any 'unreasonable divisions.'

What a complete joke.

[Vangelovski]

I provided my reasons as to why it is reasonable to assume that it is. Don't take it down because you feel I'm "attacking" you. I'm merely pointing out the irony. You should take your time and only take it down when/because you accept the ventilator is an attack on Macedonian freedom and you disagree with that.

Just in case you missed it the first time.

But I think you have made a good decision and your efforts will be credible now.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I agree with most of your points SoM, but in regards to my last comment I was referring to the line drawn between those who support the ventilator and those who oppose it.

To be honest mate, I think it is a line that needs to be drawn. You can't support the ventilator and claim to be a true Macedonian patriot, it's an oxymoron. Sure, people live this contradiction day in and day out, and although they may be ideologically sound for most other things, this specific point really is a big let down. If we don't start drawing a sharp distinction then the waters become even more muddy. Don't you agree?

The further divisions between those who are on our side is directed at Vangelovski's evidently hostile attitude towards individuals such as myself.

EM, over the last couple of days you have demonstrated that you have thick skin and are able to debate. Good for you, and good to see you becoming more vocal and active. Vangelovski is as passionate as the rest of us, and while his method of delivery may not be palatable to some, don't mistake that for some desire of his to endlessly argue with people on the forum. He has been involved in Macedonian activism for a while now, and in terms of ideology he is flawless. Does his non-nonsense approach take anything away from that fact? I don't think so. He is definetly somebody that I would rather have on our side. I think a lot of what he says is misinterpreted because on an internet forum people cannot gauge sentiment, sarcasm, etc that accurately until they actually get to know an individual better. I have met him in person, he still talks the same as he writes, but doesn't come across the same as some have perceived him here. I have used this example in the past and I will bring it up again: I used to argue and debate with Vangelovski in the same manner that some of you do now, I used to let his sharp and at times seemingly rude manner get to me, until I started looking past that and realised that he shares the same frustration relative to Macedonian matters that the rest of us do, and that if one comes back with something consistent and solid, they will quickly realise how their opinions will align.

All of those people on that side of the line are against the ventilator and understand both its history and implications, yet another internal line is being drawn within this faction to distance those with a slightly differing view on potential solution or perhaps even on the basis of a large misunderstanding.

The only solution is to reject the ventilator in all cases, and encourage other Macedonians to do the same. If there are some who are deviating from this line, even slightly, then it is they who are causing divisions and not those that adhere to principle.

From what I've seen, Tom is essentially trying to throw me to the other side of the court, with all the ventilator advocates, despite making my opposition for the imposed flag distinct and clear. This is not the right attitude to present if one is willing to educate and build both numbers and momentum for the Macedonian cause.

I don't think he is trying to throw you to the other side of the court. The only person that can do that is the individual themselves. He is trying to persuade you to be consistent in your approach. You require little education on these matters as it is apparent to me that you are already well versed with the Macedonian Cause. People like yourself are already on our side, we just need you to be as consistent as we are to strengthen the message to others.