Ventilator

[EgejskaMakedonia]

It may be the case that it is not the ventilator. However, I think it is reasonable to assume that is on the basis that it does look like the ventilator and many graphic designers incorporate the sonce and ventilator into their images without understanding the significance. I'm not asking you to change your avatar, I'm asking you to consider its significance and then determining whether you can live with it.

EM, I don't think you fully grasp what the ventilator is. How could you possibly ask if burning the ventilator is 'pro- or anti-Macedonian'? I thought it would have been clear that such an act would be pro-Macedonian because destroying a tool used to undermine Macedonian freedom would be an act of resistance towards our oppressors.

Although I don't see the relevance of Turkish coffee, I would like to see Macedonians to 'Macedonianise' their language and refrain from bastardising it, particularly with Englishisms, Serbianisms and otherisms.

I grasp the meaning of the ventilator enough to understand what it represents, in terms of its criminal imposition. Because I have a slightly differing view on related issues, I don't see how this substantiates to my so called 'lack of knowledge.' I entirely understand where your coming from, however to burn the ventilator would be a disrespectful act in itself. The flag may be symbolic of the Macedonian government undermining its own people, but the source of such a imposition was the government itself. Once again, I make it fundamentally clear that I am against the ventilator, however to burn such a flag is a ridiculous thing to say. If you saw an Albanian in Tetovo burning the ventilator, I can guarantee that 99.9% of you would be disgusted. The action is obvious, the intentions are projected through a sense of hatred for the Macedonian state and people. I would not hesitate to label such an individual as anti-Macedonian, as they seek the demise of the state.

On the other hand, if a Macedonian burnt the ventilator, they instantly become a hero? Burning a flag that is currently associated with Macedonia will not glorify one as some kind of resistance fighter. The intentions may differ as opposed to a Greek or Albanian burning the flag, but the concept is the same. If you want to show resistance, there are far more effective ways than destroying a flag. Perhaps we should blow up Phillip II Arena while we're at it to show our disapproval of 'FYR Macedonia' playing their home games at such a stadium. Burning a flag would only cause more division and layering in a society that is already overburdened with conflict between Macedonia political parties, sporting clubs, etc.
Perhaps next time the Albanians and Greeks burn the 8-ray Macedonian flag at a sporting event we should all personally travel over and congratulate each and every one of them.
Setting alight a flag that many uninformed Macedonians consider as their national symbol will ultimately cause further unnecessary conflict and severely damage the momentum of the Macedonian cause.

[Risto the Great]

Some valid statements EM.
Burning the ventilator whilst holding the original flag is a very clear statement. I accept what you say about ethnic Albanians burning the ventilator.

[Vangelovski]

I grasp the meaning of the ventilator enough to understand what it represents, in terms of its criminal imposition. Because I have a slightly differing view on related issues, I don't see how this substantiates to my so called 'lack of knowledge.' I entirely understand where your coming from, however to burn the ventilator would be a disrespectful act in itself. The flag may be symbolic of the Macedonian government undermining its own people, but the source of such a imposition was the government itself. Once again, I make it fundamentally clear that I am against the ventilator, however to burn such a flag is a ridiculous thing to say. If you saw an Albanian in Tetovo burning the ventilator, I can guarantee that 99.9% of you would be disgusted. The action is obvious, the intentions are projected through a sense of hatred for the Macedonian state and people. I would not hesitate to label such an individual as anti-Macedonian, as they seek the demise of the state.

On the other hand, if a Macedonian burnt the ventilator, they instantly become a hero? Burning a flag that is currently associated with Macedonia will not glorify one as some kind of resistance fighter. The intentions may differ as opposed to a Greek or Albanian burning the flag, but the concept is the same. If you want to show resistance, there are far more effective ways than destroying a flag. Perhaps we should blow up Phillip II Arena while we're at it to show our disapproval of 'FYR Macedonia' playing their home games at such a stadium. Burning a flag would only cause more division and layering in a society that is already overburdened with conflict between Macedonia political parties, sporting clubs, etc.
Perhaps next time the Albanians and Greeks burn the 8-ray Macedonian flag at a sporting event we should all personally travel over and congratulate each and every one of them.
Setting alight a flag that many uninformed Macedonians consider as their national symbol will ultimately cause further unnecessary conflict and severely damage the momentum of the Macedonian cause.

EM, no matter how you try to excuse it, the ventilator is unacceptable in any way, shape or form. I do not accept your arguement that we should somehow "respect" the ventilator so as not to offend Macedonians who accept Greek oppression, either knowingly or unknowingly. We need to ensure that all Macedonians understand the implications of the ventilator and cease using and apologising for it. Worrying about their 'feelings' is not going to liberate them. If you indeed understand the implications of the ventilator as you yourself claim, and still call for some form of acceptance, which you are, then you are treading a very fine line, one which is at odds with the Macedonian cause.

In relation to Albanians burning the ventilator as a sign of resistance towards the Macedonian state, they have done much worse than just symbolic acts. They have actually Albanianised the state, which is the very topic of this thread.

At the end of the day, I have no personal interest in burning flags - that was your idea. My interest is in ignoring it completely and using ONLY freely chosen symbols such as the sonce and the lion.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I disagree SoM, I think his choice of avatar was totally inappropriate and totally unacceptable.
We've had a healthy and raging debate just recently about the choice and imposition of flags in Macedonia.

For that shiptar jerk to use the swiss flag overlayed on a map of Macedonia is the type of provocation that should never be tolerated.

As for the 'Bozo the Clown' avatar, that's pure genius and should be used as a 'yellow' card for the clowns that come here thinking they can jerk us off at will...give them the 'Bozo' avatar as a first warning then a good fuckin kick up the arse and out of the forum.

Phoenix, I hear you mate. Imposing the swiss symbol in the middle of a map of the Macedonian republic can be perceived as insulting given the ideology that he was seemingly trying to spread. But a more appropriate action would have been to remove it and get him to choose another avatar instead. If he continued to spread anti-Macedonian propaganda, we have rules in place to deal with it. But I don't agree with the 'bozo' avatar, if it has come to that point then the person shouldn't be here at all.

I think an additional rule relating specifically to offensive avatars should be created. Will work on it.

Niko777, I will transfer this discussion to another thread if it continues further, so it can stay on topic.

[EgejskaMakedonia]

EM, no matter how you try to excuse it, the ventilator is unacceptable in any way, shape or form. I do not accept your arguement that we should somehow "respect" the ventilator so as not to offend Macedonians who accept Greek oppression, either knowingly or unknowingly. We need to ensure that all Macedonians understand the implications of the ventilator and cease using and apologising for it. Worrying about their 'feelings' is not going to liberate them. If you indeed understand the implications of the ventilator as you yourself claim, and still call for some form of acceptance, which you are, then you are treading a very fine line, one which is at odds with the Macedonian cause.

In relation to Albanians burning the ventilator as a sign of resistance towards the Macedonian state, they have done much worse than just symbolic acts. They have actually Albanianised the state, which is the very topic of this thread.

At the end of the day, I have no personal interest in burning flags - that was your idea. My interest is in ignoring it completely and using ONLY freely chosen symbols such as the sonce and the lion.

It may be unacceptable in any way, shape or form, but it is impossible to police Macedonians not to use it. Labeling them as anti-Macedonian for using such a flag will not allow the individual to develop a sound understanding of the implications of the ventilator. If we were to adopt that stance, then any link, picture or mention of the flag on this forum should be erased as to ensure that it does not associate with the Macedonian cause in any way, shape or form. Of course that is impossible to enforce and would hinder constructive discussion, ultimately making us no better than the Greeks who ignored the atrocities committed in the Aegean against ethnic Macedonians. The fact of the matter is that you cannot use the contrary, and force Macedonians not to use the flag. It is up to us to educate them, and for their own consciousness to manufacture a moral set of standards in relation to this matter. These people are not a lost cause and must be shown a sufficient amount of respect, for without it, they will never be thoroughly aware of the implications of the ventilator. If we adopted this arrogant mentality to all Macedonians who show a level of embrace for the new flag, then we will not gain numbers, and our voices will not be heard. To succeed in a cause, one must gain a level of positive momentum, and seek to educate the mass, not further distance themselves from such people. Numbers will always play a key role in change, regardless of the situation.

The Albanians have done far worse, however upon burning the flag, their intentions are crystal clear. If a Macedonian stood in the middle of the city and burnt the ventilator, it is guaranteed that their intentions would be perceived as being the same, provided that one was unaware of their nationality. If a Chinese burnt the ventilator, regardless of the flags history, it would be an action that shows a degree of hatred for the Macedonian state. The only time the intention may be seen from a pro-Macedonian stance is if the original flag was held unscathed throughout the process, as RtG pointed out.

I have no interest in flag burning either, but it definitely puts into perspective the line between 'right and wrong' as concerned with the treatment of the imposed flag as well as that of those who have been victimised by it.
It cannot be completely ignored, and will only ever be phased out through a step by step process. The first step is to educate those who are unaware and to build bridges between the people, as opposed to destroying these roads and jumping at any opportunity to label someone as anti-Macedonian.

P.S SoM, I think it would be best to go right ahead and transfer this discussion to the Ventilator thread.

[Soldier of Macedon]

These people are not a lost cause and must be shown a sufficient amount of respect, for without it, they will never be thoroughly aware of the implications of the ventilator. If we adopted this arrogant mentality to all Macedonians who show a level of embrace for the new flag, then we will not gain numbers, and our voices will not be heard. To succeed in a cause, one must gain a level of positive momentum, and seek to educate the mass, not further distance themselves from such people. Numbers will always play a key role in change, regardless of the situation.

Not all of them are a lost cause, but many of them are. The reason I say this is because they are well aware of how the ventilator came about but will not move from their apologetic positions which they now consider to be patriotic. I am all for positive momentum, but we also need to realise when the ship has already sailed with some people. If they can't accept logic and reason, then they need to be confronted with the truth. If that is perceived as a 'shock tactic' then so be it. You have two types of Macedonian 'patriots' nowadays, those who have integrity where it concerns their historical identity, and those think it is patriotic to accept imposed symbols and narratives by foreign elements. Both, I am sure, have Macedonia and Macedonians at heart. But one is ideologically sound whereas the other ideologically flawed. Both think they are right, but anybody with principle knows that only the first is right, whereas the second, although having good intentions, is slowly but surely contributing to the erosion of our rights, sovereignty and identity.

How do you convince such types of what is right, when they think they already have it figured out? Don't you think at some point this sort of perception needs to be tackled head on so we can rid our people of it? If we stay silent about it, then we are passively condoning it. If we try a 'soft' approach, most people from the Macedonian republic wouldn't give you a second thought. It must be assertive, direct and consistent. That is the only way they will grasp the importance of it, and hopefully, they can get as passionate as we are about the matter.

[Vangelovski]

It may be unacceptable in any way, shape or form, but it is impossible to police Macedonians not to use it. Labeling them as anti-Macedonian for using such a flag will not allow the individual to develop a sound understanding of the implications of the ventilator. If we were to adopt that stance, then any link, picture or mention of the flag on this forum should be erased as to ensure that it does not associate with the Macedonian cause in any way, shape or form. Of course that is impossible to enforce and would hinder constructive discussion, ultimately making us no better than the Greeks who ignored the atrocities committed in the Aegean against ethnic Macedonians. The fact of the matter is that you cannot use the contrary, and force Macedonians not to use the flag. It is up to us to educate them, and for their own consciousness to manufacture a moral set of standards in relation to this matter. These people are not a lost cause and must be shown a sufficient amount of respect, for without it, they will never be thoroughly aware of the implications of the ventilator. If we adopted this arrogant mentality to all Macedonians who show a level of embrace for the new flag, then we will not gain numbers, and our voices will not be heard. To succeed in a cause, one must gain a level of positive momentum, and seek to educate the mass, not further distance themselves from such people. Numbers will always play a key role in change, regardless of the situation.

The Albanians have done far worse, however upon burning the flag, their intentions are crystal clear. If a Macedonian stood in the middle of the city and burnt the ventilator, it is guaranteed that their intentions would be perceived as being the same, provided that one was unaware of their nationality. If a Chinese burnt the ventilator, regardless of the flags history, it would be an action that shows a degree of hatred for the Macedonian state. The only time the intention may be seen from a pro-Macedonian stance is if the original flag was held unscathed throughout the process, as RtG pointed out.

I have no interest in flag burning either, but it definitely puts into perspective the line between 'right and wrong' as concerned with the treatment of the imposed flag as well as that of those who have been victimised by it.
It cannot be completely ignored, and will only ever be phased out through a step by step process. The first step is to educate those who are unaware and to build bridges between the people, as opposed to destroying these roads and jumping at any opportunity to label someone as anti-Macedonian.

P.S SoM, I think it would be best to go right ahead and transfer this discussion to the Ventilator thread.

EM, noone, other than yourself has suggested forcing people not to use the ventilator or policing it. I think you're going off onto a tangent and you need to reconsider you subtle support for the ventilator, because basically it is accepting greek oppression and a treasonous capitulation by the Macedonian Government.

[EgejskaMakedonia]

Not all of them are a lost cause, but many of them are. The reason I say this is because they are well aware of how the ventilator came about but will not move from their apologetic positions which they now consider to be patriotic. I am all for positive momentum, but we also need to realise when the ship has already sailed with some people. If they can't accept logic and reason, then they need to be confronted with the truth. If that is perceived as a 'shock tactic' then so be it. You have two types of Macedonian 'patriots' nowadays, those who have integrity where it concerns their historical identity, and those think it is patriotic to accept imposed symbols and narratives by foreign elements. Both, I am sure, have Macedonia and Macedonians at heart. But one is ideologically sound whereas the other ideologically flawed. Both think they are right, but anybody with principle knows that only the first is right, whereas the second, although having good intentions, is slowly but surely contributing to the erosion of our rights, sovereignty and identity.

How do you convince such types of what is right, when they think they already have it figured out? Don't you think at some point this sort of perception needs to be tackled head on so we can rid our people of it? If we stay silent about it, then we are passively condoning it. If we try a 'soft' approach, most people from the Macedonian republic wouldn't give you a second thought. It must be assertive, direct and consistent. That is the only way they will grasp the importance of it, and hopefully, they can get as passionate as we are about the matter.

The second group are nothing more than a flock of sheep. They have been led on a leash to believe they are patriots by the two-faced DPMNE government. It has apparently become the consensus in recent years that if you support Gruevski, you are a pro-Macedonian. On MTO we know that is complete rubbish, but that is the existing mentality in present day Macedonia unfortunately. As a result, I don't believe they are a lost cause. Those who should be considered such and not forgiven are those who are directly responsible, or advocate the demise of the Macedonian state. We've seen one after the other of these traitors and these individuals must be labelled not only as anti-Macedonian, but criminals. The second type of 'patriots,' as I stated earlier, are the sheep. They will act and do what is asked of them. This touches on the notion of the 'slave mentality' that has eventuated out of previous discussion. These people need the right leadership, not a plastic government that deceives its citizens. Give these people competent leadership and their views will fall into line with the Macedonian cause in due time. The first group have the ability to think for themselves and are able to implement their own set of morals and logic to the current situation in Macedonia. These people do not fall victim to the DPMNE attempt to associate themselves with VMRO, which many Macedonians fail to realise. A direct approach must be taken, yet this must be undertaken in a step by step procedure. It is crucial that in the process, those who apparently have their heart in the right place, are not neglected and left behind. Change will not surface in the short-term. Long-term goals and objectives must be set, with consistent and successful short-term goals to accumulate positive momentum.

EM, noone, other than yourself has suggested forcing people not to use the ventilator or policing it. I think you're going off onto a tangent and you need to reconsider you subtle support for the ventilator, because basically it is accepting greek oppression and a treasonous capitulation by the Macedonian Government.

You may not suggest it, but it certainly seems as though many imply such a drastic action. You cannot force people not to use the flag, as this will only result in confusion and a further lack of understanding. Our role should be to educate those who proudly display the ventilator. What do we achieve by labeling and grouping ventilator advocates? Nothing. If you ground a child but don't explain their wrongdoing, what do they learn? Nothing.
It is one thing naming a Macedonian as an apologist, but it is a completely different approach to explain why they are an apologist. Even if they are aware of the Greek oppression and the criminal stance of the Macedonian Government, these people need the fundamental reinforcement to ensure that they can evolve as an ideologically sound Macedonian.
At this point I don't believe it is to much avail that I restate my position on the ventilator, as I have done in my previous posts. Having a differing stance on the issue by no means suggests that I have a margin of support for the ventilator. May I remind you, that your view is not the only one that can be utilized in opposition to the new flag. Our discrepancies aren't within the fabrics of the treacherousness acts accompanying the flag, but solely rest on the solution and stance that should be adopted.
My family originating from the Lerin region, I think that your last comment is an absurd statement to make. The Greeks have done far worse than impose a flag onto our nation, because at the end of the day, it was the decision of the Macedonian government to alter the flag. For future reference, I would suggest you refrain from accusing fellow Macedonians of accepting Greek oppression without having first gathered substantial evidence...in particular those from Egej.

[Vangelovski]

You may not suggest it, but it certainly seems as though many imply such a drastic action. You cannot force people not to use the flag, as this will only result in confusion and a further lack of understanding.

Like I already said, you're just going off into a tangent here.

Our role should be to educate those who proudly display the ventilator.

I agree.

What do we achieve by labeling and grouping ventilator advocates?

Well, if they are ventilator advocates (implying they understand what the ventilator is - and its not rocket science) then, quite a lot. We distinguish between opposing views and draw a line.

At this point I don't believe it is to much avail that I restate my position on the ventilator as I have done in my previous posts. Having a differing stance on the issue by no means suggests that I have a margin of support for the ventilator. May I remind you, that your view is not the only one that can be utilized in opposition to the new flag. Our discrepancies aren't within the fabrics of the treacherousness acts accompanying the flag, but solely rest on the solution and stance that should be adopted

I disagree, you seem to have suggested that there is a place for the ventilator with regard to those who have accepted it as a Macedonian symbol. I may be wrong though.

My family originating from the Lerin region, I think that your last comment is an absurd statement to make. The Greeks have done far worse than impose a flag onto our nation, because at the end of the day, it was the decision of the Macedonian government to alter the flag. For future reference, I would suggest you refrain from accusing fellow Macedonians of accepting Greek oppression without having first gathered substantial evidence...in particular those from Egej.

It was the decision of an illegitimate government - one that was not democratically elected - based on Greek oppression.

There is no reason to create an artificial "Egej/Vardar" divide.

[Soldier of Macedon]

It is crucial that in the process, those who apparently have their heart in the right place, are not neglected and left behind.

I agree, but the Macedonian Cause is larger than any one individual. And like it or not, those who belong in the second category are inadvertently holding back progress - and in some cases, actively working against the Macedonian Cause (as defined at the MTO and as should be adopted by all Macedonian activists). So I would ask, how many opportunities do you think one should be given before we move on from trying to convince them of the truth or of the importance in being consistent? It's not like these issues haven't been discussed in Macedonian communities across the world a million times over. Let's not make excuses for people who should know better. At the end of the day, some people cannot be 'saved', they need to wait until they see others take action before they jump on board.

Change will not surface in the short-term. Long-term goals and objectives must be set, with consistent and successful short-term goals to accumulate positive momentum.

Can you define short-term and long-term? It's not like we have all the time in the world, we are in a race against the clock and each day that passes puts another nail in the coffin. We have talked about the problems and what should and shouldn't happen, now let us see some suggestions on solutions, both short-term and long-term. Can you provide any specifically? Give us an example on how you would deal with people that have embraced the ventilator and continue to do so, even after being made aware of the negative impact it has on Macedonian society.

[EgejskaMakedonia]

Well, if they are ventilator advocates (implying they understand what the ventilator is - and its not rocket science) then, quite a lot. We distinguish between opposing views and draw a line.

I disagree, you seem to have suggested that there is a place for the ventilator with regard to those who have accepted it as a Macedonian symbol. I may be wrong though.

It was the decision of an illegitimate government - one that was not democratically elected - based on Greek oppression.

There is no reason to create an artificial "Egej/Vardar" divide.

I never said there is a place for it. Rather we must accept that there are some unfortunate Macedonians who still idolise the ventilator. That does not necessarily mean it belongs in our community, but nor can it be evicted in the blink of an eye.

I find that the two statements that I have highlighted are complete contradictions and a ridiculous assertion. You do not hesitate to divide Macedonians based on whether or not they support the ventilator, yet you fail to acknowledge that the Egej and Vardar Macedonians have suffered a different fate in recent history. I am not implying they are different people, they are all Macedonians, who have fallen victim to differing consequences.
It is not an artificial divide, it is actually very realistic. I'll say it again before you are quick to accuse me, whether one is resides from Vardar, Egej or Pirin, they are all the same Macedonians. That does not mean however, they should all be thrown into the same basket in regards to their history, in particular since 1913. To divide someone on the basis of what flag they wear is extremely far-fetched compared to the different, yet collective atrocities suffered by Macedonians in ALL parts of Macedonia.
At one stage Vardar Macedonia was under the occupation of Yugoslavia, and similarly Egej and Pirin were also occupied by foreign forces. The Greeks did not march into Vardar and change the names of villages, alter family names. They confined their criminal persecutions to what was unjustly within their jurisdiction. The Serbs committed similar crimes in Vardar and the Bulgarians did the same in Pirin Macedonia. Even today the Albanians are succeeding at eroding the sovereignty of an independent Macedonian state, with the assistance of an incompetent government and passive population.

All Macedonians felt the emotional pain that was suffered throughout all regions of Macedonia, but to dismiss a realistic break-up of the differing plights of Macedonians is ridiculous. That line is no different to establishing opposing views on the ventilator, as you suggest.

People are ultimately the product of their environment, and over the years we've seen distinctions between the Macedonians from each region of Macedonia due to the ongoing break-up. It is fair to draw divisions on the issue of the ventilator, between opposing sides, BUT not against those who are on your side.

[EgejskaMakedonia]

I agree, but the Macedonian Cause is larger than any one individual. And like it or not, those who belong in the second category are inadvertently holding back progress - and in some cases, actively working against the Macedonian Cause (as defined at the MTO and as should be adopted by all Macedonian activists). So I would ask, how many opportunities do you think one should be given before we move on from trying to convince them of the truth or of the importance in being consistent? It's not like these issues haven't been discussed in Macedonian communities across the world a million times over. Let's not make excuses for people who should know better. At the end of the day, some people cannot be 'saved', they need to wait until they see others take action before they jump on board.

Can you define short-term and long-term? It's not like we have all the time in the world, we are in a race against the clock and each day that passes puts another nail in the coffin. We have talked about the problems and what should and shouldn't happen, now let us see some suggestions on solutions, both short-term and long-term. Can you provide any specifically? Give us an example on how you would deal with people that have embraced the ventilator and continue to do so, even after being made aware of the negative impact it has on Macedonian society.

SoM, the cause cannot be achieved by a single individual, but the more individuals, the more realistic the cause becomes. Those who work against Macedonia's sovereignty will often be involving themselves in intentional treasonous acts against their country. These people should not be considered, they should be dealt with before the justice system as these acts are often of a criminal nature, threatening the sovereignty of Macedonia. I'm referring to the individuals who are unaware or passive in their understanding of the ventilator. They should be given the appropriate time to understand the change and support it. Once they are fully informed of the implications and know the consequences of their actions, it is up to their own consciousness to decide whether they will acknowledge their mistakes and jump on to support the cause. If they choose to remain ignorant to the facts, then that is their own problem to rectify. People will follow eventually after the change has been implemented, yet there needs to be great support for the cause for it to essentially become the 'norm' in terms of Macedonian ideology.

Long-term would be to ultimately establish a Macedonian state that respects and cherishes the identity of the Macedonian people and identity. That is the objective, and the Macedonian cause would further highlight what should be accomplished. The reason why we don't have all the time in the world is because the government and growing Albanian problem is eroding the future existence of a Macedonian state as we speak. Short-term goals would be focused on preventing such fears from becoming a sad reality. We can't just solve all the problems in one day. The short-term goals would offer accomplishments that will accumulate and build on the confidence of those involved and the Macedonian people in general. As for specific examples, I am not expert in that field. However, it is blatantly obvious that a stronger resistance is required. Politicians should be held accountable for their actions, the notion of a representative and responsible government. All acts against the Macedonian state need to be publicly scrutinised, and I guess the media and campaigns play a large role in this area. We've already seen great initiatives come to life by a range of Macedonian organisations such as AMHRC and MHRMI, yet it is ultimately up to the Macedonian citizens to protect their nation. Their votes are the ones that count, and they, whether knowingly or unknowingly, have the key to their country.
These people need to realise this, and the status-quo mentality needs to change. One thing is certain, proper leadership is required in order to lead the people.
This can either be brought upon by democratic elections, or an uprising, as we have seen throughout the Middle East and Africa over the last few years.

[Vangelovski]

I never said there is a place for it. Rather we must accept that there are some unfortunate Macedonians who still idolise the ventilator. That does not necessarily mean it belongs in our community, but nor can it be evicted in the blink of an eye.

I find that the two statements that I have highlighted are complete contradictions and a ridiculous assertion. You do not hesitate to divide Macedonians based on whether or not they support the ventilator, yet you fail to acknowledge that the Egej and Vardar Macedonians have suffered a different fate in recent history. I am not implying they are different people, they are all Macedonians, who have fallen victim to differing consequences.
It is not an artificial divide, it is actually very realistic. I'll say it again before you are quick to accuse me, whether one is resides from Vardar, Egej or Pirin, they are all the same Macedonians. That does not mean however, they should all be thrown into the same basket in regards to their history, in particular since 1913. To divide someone on the basis of what flag they wear is extremely far-fetched compared to the different, yet collective atrocities suffered by Macedonians in ALL parts of Macedonia.
At one stage Vardar Macedonia was under the occupation of Yugoslavia, and similarly Egej and Pirin were also occupied by foreign forces. The Greeks did not march into Vardar and change the names of villages, alter family names. They confined their criminal persecutions to what was unjustly within their jurisdiction. The Serbs committed similar crimes in Vardar and the Bulgarians did the same in Pirin Macedonia. Even today the Albanians are succeeding at eroding the sovereignty of an independent Macedonian state, with the assistance of an incompetent government and passive population.

All Macedonians felt the emotional pain that was suffered throughout all regions of Macedonia, but to dismiss a realistic break-up of the differing plights of Macedonians is ridiculous. That line is no different to establishing opposing views on the ventilator, as you suggest.

People are ultimately the product of their environment, and over the years we've seen distinctions between the Macedonians from each region of Macedonia due to the ongoing break-up. It is fair to draw divisions on the issue of the ventilator, between opposing sides, BUT not against those who are on your side.

EM, no one suggested that Macedonians under Greek occupation have not had their own specific experiences. But I don't need to 'consult' with one of them to know that Greece is currently oppressing Macedonians in the republic - which is what you suggested. I don't think that I need some special insight, although useful for other matters, from a Macedonian under Greek occupation to understand what the ventilator means.

But this is getting completely off topic. You have been arguing that we should educate people on the ventilator. That is exactly what we are trying to do - educate the rank and file. I don't disagree with you on that. But as SoM has stated, there comes a time when it becomes obvious that certain people are not interested in Macedonian freedom or exercising that freedom. In fact, they actively encourage other Macedonians to accept a loss of freedom.

But I find this entire conversation with you amusing. Not that I radically disagree with what you are writing, but because the ventilator in your avatar is burning the retinas in my eyes.

[EgejskaMakedonia]

EM, no one suggested that Macedonians under Greek occupation have not had their own specific experiences. But I don't need to 'consult' with one of them to know that Greece is currently oppressing Macedonians in the republic - which is what you suggested. I don't think that I need some special insight, although useful for other matters, from a Macedonian under Greek occupation to understand what the ventilator means.

But this is getting completely off topic. You have been arguing that we should educate people on the ventilator. That is exactly what we are trying to do - educate the rank and file. I don't disagree with you on that. But as SoM has stated, there comes a time when it becomes obvious that certain people are not interested in Macedonian freedom or exercising that freedom. In fact, they actively encourage other Macedonians to accept a loss of freedom.

But I find this entire conversation with you amusing. Not that I radically disagree with what you are writing, but because the ventilator in your avatar is burning the retinas in my eyes.

If we all possessed that attitude we may as well not bother posting our thoughts on this forum, since you are obviously so well informed. I wasn't aware that I can't use examples that you know about in my arguments, please direct me to the forum rules so I may be enlightened.

That's exactly the point I've been trying to convey this entire time. It is about educating, not distancing ourselves. I don't see how I can therefore be placed on the other side of the line in terms of being a so called 'subtle ventilator supporter.' I addressed SoM's point and agreed that these people should be dealt with appropriately by the legal system for acts against the sovereignty of their nation.

Oh come on, here we go with the assumptions once again. Is a ventilator clearly defined in the image? No. Make sure you don't go outside this summer Tom, because the ventilator sun may cause more damage to your eyes than my avatar. It's not too late to label the Japanese Rising Sun as the ventilator too while we're at it. The way this is going you might as well abuse your power as a mod once again and impose 'bozo the clown' to cleanse my avatar...oh wait, that'd be doing exactly what the Macedonian government unjustly did against the will of the Macedonian people.

Get real mate.

[Vangelovski]

If we all possessed that attitude we may as well not bother posting our thoughts on this forum, since you are obviously so well informed. I wasn't aware that I can't use examples that you know about in my arguments, please direct me to the forum rules so I may be enlightened.

That's exactly the point I've been trying to convey this entire time. It is about educating, not distancing ourselves. I don't see how I can therefore be placed on the other side of the line in terms of being a so called 'subtle ventilator supporter.' I addressed SoM's point and agreed that these people should be dealt with appropriately by the legal system for acts against the sovereignty of their nation.

Oh come on, here we go with the assumptions once again. Is a ventilator clearly defined in the image? No. Make sure you don't go outside this summer Tom, because the ventilator sun may cause more damage to your eyes than my avatar. It's not too late to label the Japanese Rising Sun as the ventilator too while we're at it. The way this is going you might as well abuse your power as a mod once again and impose 'bozo the clown' to cleanse my avatar...oh wait, that'd be doing exactly what the Macedonian government unjustly did against the will of the Macedonian people.

Get real mate.

Noone told you not to use example. I told you that I don't need to consult with others to know what is blatantly obvious.

We need to practice what we preach - we can't 'educate' people and then use the ventilator as if its all good. Its not.

I made it clear in a previous post why it is reasonable to assume that it is the ventilator in your avatar and not a coincidence.

Others may disagree, but I find it hard to take you seriously when you claim to understand what the ventilator is and yet display it in your avatar.