Ventilator

[Vangelovski]

The hallmark of a sovereign state is the free adoption of a national flag, the flag becomes the defining symbol of the nation and serves as a unifying symbol of the nation. Most importantly, the flag is the link to the history of the nation.

The current Macedonian flag fails to meet those fundamental requirements and considerations. The flag stands as a stain on Macedonian sovereignty and signals the self inflicted demise of our identity.

Phoenix, you touch on an important issue here - sovereignty. A flag shows people who is in charge over a particular territory. As long as the ventilator flies over Macedonia, we know that Greece is in command Macedonia through the use of vassal and quislings.

The day that the sonce flies over Macedonia, we will know that a patriotic people have regained control.

[Makedonska_Kafana]

The day that the sonce flies over Macedonia, we will know that a patriotic people have regained control.

They need our help so we must avoid using that Greek flag - it's the Macedonian Truth.



NOTE

If, you belong to a Macedonian organization in a free diaspora (UMD) that avoids using our united Macedonian flag ask for a FULL refund!

[George S.]

well said tom & MK.

[George S.]

Just a question egejska which flag are you for??Also do you approve of the name fyrom??
Also do you think gruevski should negotiate the name to enter eu or nato?

[EgejskaMakedonia]

EM, the reason we have divisions in Australia is because we are the most ideologically solid group in the diaspora. We have actually taken a stand and we will not back down from our principles. There are factions within Australia that have chosen to support and promote the treason that the Macedonian Government has undertaken (not thinking of anyone in particular on this forum, but throughout the Macedonian community in Australia). The fact that we have divisions shows that we are thinking about the issues and taking them seriously. It shows that we have robust debate and we are not just jumping onto the next bandwagon that comes along. It shows that there are people and organisations in Australia that have clearly defined principles and will not back down from them. It shows that we won't just accept whatever is thrown at us and then give ourselves a pat on the back UMD style.

Yes I agree, but divisions have also been created between those who are thoroughly educated in Macedonian affairs and those who lack an understanding of the implications of the ventilator and other factors, which have essentially been engraved into the Macedonian identity of these people. Do they deserve to be labelled as traitors or anti-Macedonian? Of course not.
Only those who intentionally seek the demise of the Macedonian identity and people should not be offered a uniting hand. For example, many young generation Macedonians living in Australia have grown up with the ventilator being preached from Macedonian organisations, TV, and the like. I can vouch for this since I'm a part of this generation, yet am educated in this regard.
For example, a fellow Macedonian from school used to stand passively at being called 'Yugoslav.' Yet, after meeting them I have given them a brief insight into what Macedonia is and what it means to be Macedonian. Sure they knew beforehand that they were Macedonian, but it is far more beneficial to reinforce this confidence and give them a sense of pride, ensuring that when asked what nationality they are, they do not struggle to proudly respond, 'Macedonian.'
The aim is to build our numbers, educate those who are oblivious to the reality. If we treat these Macedonians differently, then they will ultimately have no reason to value their people and identity.

DPMNE seemingly comes across as a 'patriotic' political party, yet it takes a further in-depth analysis to understand the details that suggest the contrary. Unfortunately many Macedonians in the upcoming generation like to jump on the bandwagon, and are often disinterested to show genuine concern into the current affairs in Macedonia. It's a real shame that many have no interest in their background or a lack of understanding, and perhaps the division in the community has played a large role in such consequences. They are not a lost cause though, because deep down, every one of them know they are Macedonian. Even a distinct proportion of 'grkomani,' in particular the older generations, would have a genuine Macedonian identity amongst the layers upon layers of propaganda and lies, not to mention many are often two faced.

In response to SoM, I appreciate you taking on-board my concerns in an abrupt and serious manner. I think to maintain the professionalism of the forum, the rules need to be enforced appropriately, especially since the MTO is now a registered organisation.

As for George, to me the only true Macedonian flag is the 16-ray sun. As I type, this is the flag that drapes down my bedroom wall. I do not agree with the forceful imposition of the ventilator, but at the same time honour anyone who may have died under the flag, provided they were not aware of the criminal actions that brought this artificial flag into existence.
In relation to your other two questions, I'd hate to sound like Tony Abbott, but my answer is NO and NO.

[Phoenix]

EM, the decision to change his avatar wasn't the most appropriate and you're right, if he breaches forum policy then the reaction should be in accordance with the established rules. If he chooses to return to the forum he can have his old avatar back. He was still a new member so I wouldn't yet put him in the same boat as 'ozimak' who was continually spamming this forum for months on end, and, who should have been banned long before he had an opportunity to do it. We live and learn mate, we will continue trying to moderate this forum as best we can, and if you have any other concerns or suggestions don't hesitate to make them heard.

I disagree SoM, I think his choice of avatar was totally inappropriate and totally unacceptable.
We've had a healthy and raging debate just recently about the choice and imposition of flags in Macedonia.

For that shiptar jerk to use the swiss flag overlayed on a map of Macedonia is the type of provocation that should never be tolerated.

As for the 'Bozo the Clown' avatar, that's pure genius and should be used as a 'yellow' card for the clowns that come here thinking they can jerk us off at will...give them the 'Bozo' avatar as a first warning then a good fuckin kick up the arse and out of the forum.

[Vangelovski]

EM,

I agree with some of your analysis however, I do have to ask which Macedonians that are ideologically sound have been called "traitors" or "anti-Macedonian"? Has it been on this forum? If so, can you point out where?

On another note, I see that you understand the implications of the ventilator. With that in mind, why is it that your avatar has ventilator rays in the background?

[Phoenix]

EM,

I agree with some of your analysis however, I do have to ask which Macedonians that are ideologically sound have been called "traitors" or "anti-Macedonian"? Has it been on this forum? If so, can you point out where?

On another note, I see that you understand the implications of the ventilator. With that in mind, why is it that your avatar has ventilator rays in the background?

MTO must make a stand about the use of the ventilator in any form on this forum...

[EgejskaMakedonia]

I disagree SoM, I think his choice of avatar was totally inappropriate and totally unacceptable.
We've had a healthy and raging debate just recently about the choice and imposition of flags in Macedonia.

For that shiptar jerk to use the swiss flag overlayed on a map of Macedonia is the type of provocation that should never be tolerated.

As for the 'Bozo the Clown' avatar, that's pure genius and should be used as a 'yellow' card for the clowns that come here thinking they can jerk us off at will...give them the 'Bozo' avatar as a first warning then a good fuckin kick up the arse and out of the forum.

Phoenix, I agree that there should be a restriction on avatars that may be provoking as all members values must be taken into consideration. However, imposing an avatar onto a member is far different and a breach of power. I don't think someone should be ridiculed for having differing views, and if these views breach the rules of the forum, a temp-ban and perma-ban system is far more effective. I'll admit, the 'bozo the clown' avatar was quite funny, but unnecessary.

EM,

I agree with some of your analysis however, I do have to ask which Macedonians that are ideologically sound have been called "traitors" or "anti-Macedonian"? Has it been on this forum? If so, can you point out where?

On another note, I see that you understand the implications of the ventilator. With that in mind, why is it that your avatar has ventilator rays in the background?

Vangelovski, I was talking in a more broad sense about all Macedonians. Those who are ideologically sound would likely have a solid foundation that would prevent division. But we have seen ideologically sound Macedonians split on a range of external factors such as the church dispute. I'm not too informed on the absolute specifics of the dispute, but I'm sure at some stage each faction has regarded the other as anti-Macedonian, despite proud Macedonians likely being on both sides of the dispute.

To be honest, this was the avatar I uploaded when making the account, and any picture sufficed for the time being. I'll admit I was less aware of the implications of the ventilator back then as I was around 15-16 years old, but I've learnt a lot from this forum in the process. I always preferred the 16-ray sun by a long-shot and had a vague understanding that the Greeks forced us to change our flag, yet I was oblivious to the fact that the Macedonian government at the time enforced this demand. This only further highlights my argument that Macedonians must be educated, not crucified for their lack of understanding.
The old sonce is far more prominant in the image, and this raises an interesting point. If Macedonia were to one day reinstate the 16-ray sun as their state flag, would anyone have a problem with the 8-ray sun remaining a symbol of our country.
I'm not sure I would have much of a problem, as despite the history involving the 8-ray flag, it would now essentially be used on personal choice. As long as the rightful flag was flown from government buildings and proudly waved by the people, the 8-ray would no longer be unjustly forced upon us.
I would still never fly the 8-ray sun as the history of the flag would forever taint its meaning, yet others may perceive it as one of the many symbols of Macedonia. I would respect such a 'free choice' far more than flying the flag because the government says so.
I'm still unsure of my opinion on such an outcome, but it's an interesting point to raise.

[Phoenix]

Phoenix, I agree that there should be a restriction on avatars that may be provoking as all members values must be taken into consideration. However, imposing an avatar onto a member is far different and a breach of power. I don't think someone should be ridiculed for having differing views, and if these views breach the rules of the forum, a temp-ban and perma-ban system is far more effective. I'll admit, the 'bozo the clown' avatar was quite funny, but unnecessary.

EM, what's the difference between the shiptar imposing the swiss flag on Macedonia as his avatar and the MTO imposing the 'Bozo' avatar on the shiptar...?

If the MTO has a 'line in the sand' and a list of non-negotiables which are things such as the name and symbols of the state, why should they entertain such provocations...?

[EgejskaMakedonia]

EM, what's the difference between the shiptar imposing the swiss flag on Macedonia as his avatar and the MTO imposing the 'Bozo' avatar on the shiptar...?

If the MTO has a 'line in the sand' and a list of non-negotiables which are things such as the name and symbols of the state, why should they entertain such provocations...?

You need to understand that there's is a difference between one choosing their avatar, and another imposing it upon them. Parallels can be drawn with the ventilator being imposed on Macedonians. The two scenarios are almost identical.

When one makes an account, they should receive full responsibility over their membership on the forums. I don't agree with the Swiss flag covering a map of Macedonia, but this avatar should either be removed or the member asked to replace it, provided they have breached the rules of the forum.
Imposing a clown as someones avatar against their will is following in the steps of the Macedonian government acting against the values of Macedonians throughout the world.
I know it's an internet forum, but such action could be viewed as a form of abuse and definitely makes a mockery of the site. If their views are intolerant and derogatory towards Macedonians, a banning system should come into effect to prevent such offence. Some of us here seem to enjoy the presence of such posters and use them as fuel for their own ventilation and amusement.
I don't care if they are Greek or Albanian, changing peoples account names and avatars is a lesser, internet equivalent of changing for example, the names of our villages and family names in Aegean Macedonia.

[Phoenix]

You need to understand that there's is a difference between one choosing their avatar, and another imposing it upon them. Parallels can be drawn with the ventilator being imposed on Macedonians. The two scenarios are almost identical.

When one makes an account, they should receive full responsibility over their membership on the forums. I don't agree with the Swiss flag covering a map of Macedonia, but this avatar should either be removed or the member asked to replace it, provided they have breached the rules of the forum.
Imposing a clown as someones avatar against their will is following in the steps of the Macedonian government acting against the values of Macedonians throughout the world.
I know it's an internet forum, but such action could be viewed as a form of abuse and definitely makes a mockery of the site. If their views are intolerant and derogatory towards Macedonians, a banning system should come into effect to prevent such offence. Some of us here seem to enjoy the presence of such posters and use them as fuel for their own ventilation and amusement.
I don't care if they are Greek or Albanian, changing peoples account names and avatars is a lesser, internet equivalent of changing for example, the names of our villages and family names in Aegean Macedonia.

What about the issue of a fuckin shiptar pretending to be Macedonian...?

C'mon mate, you're wasting too much time concerning yourself with the treatment of turds.

I know you're pissed off that the Hawks shot themselves in the foot but don't take it out on a Cat supporter like me

[Vangelovski]

I'm not too informed on the absolute specifics of the dispute, but I'm sure at some stage each faction has regarded the other as anti-Macedonian, despite proud Macedonians likely being on both sides of the dispute.

You should inform yourself about both the specifics of the church dispute and who stands for what in relation to the cause. We have an entire thread dedicated to the matter:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3756

To be honest, this was the avatar I uploaded when making the account, and any picture sufficed for the time being. I'll admit I was less aware of the implications of the ventilator back then as I was around 15-16 years old, but I've learnt a lot from this forum in the process. I always preferred the 16-ray sun by a long-shot and had a vague understanding that the Greeks forced us to change our flag, yet I was oblivious to the fact that the Macedonian government at the time enforced this demand.

That's fine, but now that you are aware of what the ventilator is, don't you think it would be prudent to disassociate yourself with the ventilator in every way, shape and form?

If Macedonia were to one day reinstate the 16-ray sun as their state flag, would anyone have a problem with the 8-ray sun remaining a symbol of our country.
I'm not sure I would have much of a problem, as despite the history involving the 8-ray flag, it would now essentially be used on personal choice. As long as the rightful flag was flown from government buildings and proudly waved by the people, the 8-ray would no longer be unjustly forced upon us.
I would still never fly the 8-ray sun as the history of the flag would forever taint its meaning, yet others may perceive it as one of the many symbols of Macedonia. I would respect such a 'free choice' far more than flying the flag because the government says so.
I'm still unsure of my opinion on such an outcome, but it's an interesting point to raise.

EM, the ventilator will NEVER be acceptable under any circumstances for reasons already made clear on this forum and which you claim to understand and agree with. But judging from this comment, I'm not sure that you do fully understand the implications of the ventilator. Perhaps further careful consideration in needed?

[EgejskaMakedonia]

What about the issue of a fuckin shiptar pretending to be Macedonian...?

C'mon mate, you're wasting too much time concerning yourself with the treatment of turds.

I know you're pissed off that the Hawks shot themselves in the foot but don't take it out on a Cat supporter like me

Not attacking you mate, just saying that now the MTO has became a recognised and registered organisation, it is far more important to act in a professional manner.

Might be a bit of that reflecting onto my posts, don't think I've ever been more upset at a game than that. Terrible feeling walking out of the MCG, and despite how much I hate the cats, I sure hope they win on Saturday to ease the pain a little.

You should inform yourself about both the specifics of the church dispute and who stands for what in relation to the cause. We have an entire thread dedicated to the matter:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3756

That's fine, but now that you are aware of what the ventilator is, don't you think it would be prudent to disassociate yourself with the ventilator in every way, shape and form?


EM, the ventilator will NEVER be acceptable under any circumstances for reasons already made clear on this forum and which you claim to understand and agree with. But judging from this comment, I'm not sure that you do fully understand the implications of the ventilator. Perhaps further careful consideration in needed?

As far as I'm concerned Vangelovski, what Bishop Petar is doing is an absolute disgrace. Many of the independent churches were built at the time my baba and dedo and their parents came to Australia, and at that time I highly doubt the head MOC back in stari kraj offered much assistance. I'm quite confident that the Macedonian church in Epping was built by mostly Egejci with their own two hands. It's a shame that some individuals have turned religion into a business scheme.
I have browsed through that thread in the past and find it unsettling that such events are occurring. It's to no avail thus, that despite our large presence in Australia, the Macedonian community is quite unorganized and divided compared to other ethnic groups.

I may be a little pedantic here, but who is to say that is even the ventilator in the background. It is likely it was used, but it has not been presented in the way we have come to know it. Does this mean we can never assume that it may be a rising sun or sun rays? As long as it isn't displayed in a manner that truly depicts the image as being associated with the ventilator, I see no problem. That being said, I will 'compromise' and alter the avatar regardless.

I was raising a point for discussion, I proceeded to note my clear views on the flag. I'm well aware of the implications of the imposed flag, but if one were no longer forced to display that flag, would it now be considered immoral to still use it?
I think it would to a degree, and would personally hate to see it used considering its distasteful history; however this is food for thought.
Perhaps put it into comparison with what have essentially become 'imposed' words. Should we not use turkish words that are now considered a part of our language because they were imposed at a time of occupation? Should we refrain from drinking tursko cafe based on our 400+ years of foreign occupation. Of course not, and these are definitely of a much smaller scale, but as I have said time and time again, these questions raise an interesting discussion point.

There is certainly a difference between an invader imposing something on a group of people, as opposed to their own government. This ultimately underpins why the ventilator is an infringement of the Macedonian peoples rights to govern and protect their own sovereign nation.
But where do we draw the line? Would burning the ventilator symbolise a pro- or anti-macedonian stance?

[Vangelovski]

I may be a little pedantic here, but who is to say that is even the ventilator in the background. It is likely it was used, but it has not been presented in the way we have come to know it. Does this mean we can never assume that it may be a rising sun or sun rays? As long as it isn't displayed in a manner that truly depicts the image as being associated with the ventilator, I see no problem. That being said, I will 'compromise' and alter the avatar regardless.

It may be the case that it is not the ventilator. However, I think it is reasonable to assume that is on the basis that it does look like the ventilator and many graphic designers incorporate the sonce and ventilator into their images without understanding the significance. I'm not asking you to change your avatar, I'm asking you to consider its significance and then determining whether you can live with it.

I was raising a point for discussion, I proceeded to note my clear views on the flag. I'm well aware of the implications of the imposed flag, but if one were no longer forced to display that flag, would it now be considered immoral to still use it?
I think it would to a degree, and would personally hate to see it used considering its distasteful history; however this is food for thought.
Perhaps put it into comparison with what have essentially become 'imposed' words. Should we not use turkish words that are now considered a part of our language because they were imposed at a time of occupation? Should we refrain from drinking tursko cafe based on our 400+ years of foreign occupation. Of course not, and these are definitely of a much smaller scale, but as I have said time and time again, these questions raise an interesting discussion point.

There is certainly a difference between an invader imposing something on a group of people, as opposed to their own government. This ultimately underpins why the ventilator is an infringement of the Macedonian peoples rights to govern and protect their own sovereign nation.
But where do we draw the line? Would burning the ventilator symbolise a pro- or anti-macedonian stance?

EM, I don't think you fully grasp what the ventilator is. How could you possibly ask if burning the ventilator is 'pro- or anti-Macedonian'? I thought it would have been clear that such an act would be pro-Macedonian because destroying a tool used to undermine Macedonian freedom would be an act of resistance towards our oppressors.

Although I don't see the relevance of Turkish coffee, I would like to see Macedonians to 'Macedonianise' their language and refrain from bastardising it, particularly with Englishisms, Serbianisms and otherisms.