Ventilator

[julie]

Bratot, we are all here for the same reason. The gravity and the reality of the situation is we have external countries that are hell-bent on Macedonia's extinction. One thing we dont want to see from the diaspora is RoM handed over on a silver platter. We are on these forums for a reason. We are all (I hope) here for the same thing, for the Macedonian cause. We don't want to see any further partitioning of Macedonia.
We have a very good Macedonian cause here on the MTO
What we need here next, is HOW, to effect change, and processes and strategies to implement these.
We don't have to agree, but we can all be respectful to each other, everyone has a lot to contribute, be it time, knowledge, wisdom , contacts, etc
We also need strategies in how to deal with negativity and blockers. By blockers , the atypical "she;ll be right" Aussie mentality as an example, where people wait for someone else to be pro-active.
Lets unite, all of us are good Macedonians, and we are all wanting the same thing, we all know what we want, its how to go about it that is the issue

[Bratot]

Bratot, I am way past "good Macedonians", I am now looking for "useful Macedonians".

Your solution is something about being respectful to people, some of whom are plotting to destroy Macedonia.

I question the actions of MANY Macedonians both inside Macedonia and outside of Macedonia. I am more impatient with them than I ever have been. I am older than you, you will understand as your sense of hope is replaced by the reality of our people.

How much time is given to the freedom fighters in Macedonia? How much airtime have they received and how much influence do they have in Macedonia? Who has got influence in Macedonia? Is it Tose the dead musician?

Seriously, you are sounding like the UMD. They said "no negotiations" a few weeks ago and now do not know what to do about it without offending anyone.

Give us your solution Bratot. Tell us why it will work.

Risto,

Being younger doesn't imply being less competent by default.

If I put aside the modesty, I might have experienced in relation to the activism much more than half of the older members on MTO.

As I said, from obvious reasons, the detailed suggestions for the solution will not be revealed in the public forum.

Do you remember when we talked about the assimilated Macedonians in Greece, many of who are relatives to some of us, and how you would not give up of them, that we could and should fight for the awakening of their?

Think of the same but in relation to the Macedonians from RoM, where you have higher level of awarness in a national frame, but they lack much of the ideological daintiness.

It should be much easier to work through our stances with them, with the proper strategy.

I don't include those who are openly ploting against our cause, those I will fight back.

But majority of our people is hungry for a ideology that will feed their pride, most of them are very simple people.

The most answers are lying in the cognitive strategies, something like a marketing plan for a new product or introducing a new brand to them, with already given huge advatage by having ready powerful & recognizable brand name - Macedonia.

We have to induce their senses, to use form of communication that is aimed at influencing the attitude of a community toward some cause or position (see def. of propaganda).

The destructive approach is the one that suggest all of those who haven't yet adopted our level of acquaintance are 'bad apples' and putting them in a same basket with those who are openly plotting against our cause.

Also tell me why asserting the deserved freedom and sovereignty of our people is rude, primitive raving and disrespectful. I think you have these issues confused with complaining about about the lack of kajmak in my tursko kafe.

You think I'm the only person that doesn't find you funny when you are trying to be smartass?

My remarks were clear and precise where your preaching has failed.

You might agree that Sam Vaknin is asserting freedom and sovereignty for Macedonians as well, judging from the simmilarities in your approaches.

[indigen]

Risto,

Being younger doesn't imply being less competent by default.

If I put aside the modesty, I might have experienced in relation to the activism much more than half of the older members on MTO.

I can agree with what is in bold above but, IMO, people that are younger and/or are not clued up on the political history of the early 1990s of Macedonia (Rep. of) and who come on the MTO and preach to ALL about "reasoning and facing reality" (in relation to certain events that are clearly acts of treason and capitulation/sell out) and then abuse those members who wish to set the record strait with the facts as being "unrealistic", extremists, hard-liners, and many other labels, they need to be ENLIGHTENED IN NO UNCERTAIN MANNER so that they don't (or continue to) mislead other MTO members or readers.

As this is a thread in relation to the "VENTILATOR" and how it came into being and whether is deserves condemnation or "respect", I don't see why it really ventured into the arena of what and how we tell Macedonians inside the republic how to view it correctly, i.e. see it as a symbol of capitulation. We have a problem right here amongst the MTO forum participants that needs to be sorted out first and foremost before we look elsewhere, i.e. we need to get the MTO house in order first.

Secondly, looking at the old (earlier this year) "VENTILATOR" thread, it is clear that a very large number of forum participants, including Julie, Bratot, Bill77 and a whole bunch of others were defending it for one excuse ("reason") or another and it is a bit hypocritical for you now to come and preach to RTG, Vangelovski or others about how to approach the struggle. Go back and see how disrespectful and offensive you have been to others that had an opposing view, e.g. I. Aleksandrov (someone who has put nearly 2 decades of his life into the Macedonian Cause from a very young age) and then see if the pot is not calling someone else black.

Lastly, it was not long ago (June or July this year) that you were also advocating against declaring the Interim Accord null and void for fear of losing UN membership and, in all honesty, I can really not put much ideological faith in what you stand for after those events. Sure, you do make a positive contribution in some other areas and I can see convergence with the main aims and objectives of the MTO Macedonian Cause but I simply can not trust your ideological stand based on your resent history here on MTO.

So pochit,
I.

[julie]

[QUOTE=indigen;80502], looking at the old (earlier this year) "VENTILATOR" thread, it is clear that a very large number of forum participants, including Julie, Bratot, Bill77 and a whole bunch of others were defending it for one excuse ("reason") or another

Indigen
I admire your patriotism. One area you fail miserably is in your educational approach to your ideology. There is a manner in educating people that may not be as versed as you , and you immediately place people offside with your approach. You are no more of a Macedonian than me, nor any of those people you have named , nor work for the Macedonian Community.

I will not a flag Macedonians have died under. I do not accept the flag enforced upon us. I will not denigrate Macedonians buried with that flag. Yes, it was forced upon us, and I want my old flag back.

Instead of attacking people here constantly that are not as versed as you are , take a step back and educate them .

Bratot is working hard to spread via Macedonian Spark support for our people. Bill has worked hard within his own community in Australia. Everyone here is not your enemy, and especially not an enemy of the "state".
We are all wanting a sovereign Macedonian state. A free one. Minus framework agreement and enforced flags and we are wanting an independent free Macedonian state, free from the vassals and traitors you speak of.

How can we have the support from all macedonians wanting these things when you attack them and call us names. I am not going to go away, as you want, I am Macedonian too, and for someone that is very educated and articulate in both languages, you lack diplomacy and tact.

Like it or not, the Macedonians in the Republic need to be educated. It is not going to happen with you attacking them, or people that are trying really hard to educate them in the ramifications of the acceptance of the enforced flag etc.

You can state activism is not for me or the others you have named, and I really dont care what you think of me on a personal level, I am here to stay. I am Macedonian as you are, and I am damned if I am going to let you to continue to denigrate me and others with your backlash.

How do you think these people are going to react in RoM with you labelling them names? No bloody wonder they tell the diaspora to butt out. You need to learn how to educate people on the effects of these ideologies without branding them.

If you want to be seen as a leader, then you need to lead, not chastise, and provide SOLUTIONS to what needs to be achieved.

[indigen]

, looking at the old (earlier this year) "VENTILATOR" thread, it is clear that a very large number of forum participants, including Julie, Bratot, Bill77 and a whole bunch of others were defending it for one excuse ("reason") or another

Indigen
I admire your patriotism. One area you fail miserably is in your educational approach to your ideology. There is a manner in educating people that may not be as versed as you , and you immediately place people offside with your approach. You are no more of a Macedonian than me, nor any of those people you have named , nor work for the Macedonian Community.

Julie, I don't wish to waste too much more time so please read and comprehend what I said before you overreact for no reason. I merely stated the facts of where we were a few month ago. I think I state the facts clearly, as have others (especially Aleksandrov and Vangelovski), on the flag issue and whilst it may not have had an instant impact, the combined efforts of those campaigning against giving any respect or credibility to the symbol of shame and capitulation is bearing fruit and it is clearly more of an MTO issue right now than anything else. We need to learn to crawl first before we can walk and then run.

I will not a flag Macedonians have died under.

What do you mean by this?

I do not accept the flag enforced upon us.

Good, we concur here! :-)

I will not denigrate Macedonians buried with that flag.

Who is denigrating Macedonians who have died?

Yes, it was forced upon us, and I want my old flag back.

Good, we concur here! :-)

Instead of attacking people here constantly that are not as versed as you are , take a step back and educate them .

Who am I attacking, constantly and for what reason? Give some examples?

Bratot is working hard to spread via Macedonian Spark support for our people.

Bratot is also full of himself the way he is responding to RTG, Vangelovski and others before, as I have explained, right here on MTO.

Bill has worked hard within his own community in Australia.

Did I really attack Bill just because I mentioned him as an example? As he himself explained just recently, he has changed his view due to further understanding and all that is due to MTO participation. Bill and others like him are the examples we need to prove that MTO does its work but that we also know much, much more needs to be done.

Everyone here is not your enemy, and especially not an enemy of the "state".

Did I say they were? :-)

We are all wanting a sovereign Macedonian state. A free one. Minus framework agreement and enforced flags and we are wanting an independent free Macedonian state, free from the vassals and traitors you speak of.

I don't know about that one, Julie. One can not be in the cheering squad for the VASSALS and want those things at the same time and certainly one can not be proclaiming the wonders of multi, multi-ethic Macedonia and the greatness of the Ramkoven, as UMD-Ovci do, and also be included in the above set of "everyone" that you speak of.

How can we have the support from all Macedonians wanting these things when you attack them and call us names.

When you see your name there, you must not assume it always means it is an attack. I only gave constructive criticism to Bratot because he has been too full of himself in attacking others, who I think a far more relevant to MTO and the cause it has outlined for itself than he is.

I am not going to go away, as you want, I am Macedonian too, and for someone that is very educated and articulate in both languages, you lack diplomacy and tact.

Take a chill pill, Julia, because I am not "attacking" you! As it is, I generally like you and your patriotism and a little less reaction, a bit more consistency and a bit less generalisations is what I would like to see from you.

Like it or not, the Macedonians in the Republic need to be educated.

IMO, we should worry about the Macedonians on MTO first since this is where we are at now.

So pochit,
I.

PS: I have learnt my final lesson and I surely will make sure I never mention certain name/s as examples in my future posts (ever) again! :-)))

[George S.]

I fully support & agree with indigen regarding the flag.We so readily fall for the one that's forced on us ,we don't know & care enough that we really shouldn't just give it up.If we continue like that giving up we are sure as hell going to lose everything that is dear to us.
Good on you indigen keep it up.

[Bratot]

I can agree with what is in bold above but, IMO, people that are younger and/or are not clued up on the political history of the early 1990s of Macedonia (Rep. of) and who come on the MTO and preach to ALL about "reasoning and facing reality" (in relation to certain events that are clearly acts of treason and capitulation/sell out) and then abuse those members who wish to set the record strait with the facts as being "unrealistic", extremists, hard-liners, and many other labels, they need to be ENLIGHTENED IN NO UNCERTAIN MANNER so that they don't (or continue to) mislead other MTO members or readers.

As this is a thread in relation to the "VENTILATOR" and how it came into being and whether is deserves condemnation or "respect", I don't see why it really ventured into the arena of what and how we tell Macedonians inside the republic how to view it correctly, i.e. see it as a symbol of capitulation. We have a problem right here amongst the MTO forum participants that needs to be sorted out first and foremost before we look elsewhere, i.e. we need to get the MTO house in order first.

Secondly, looking at the old (earlier this year) "VENTILATOR" thread, it is clear that a very large number of forum participants, including Julie, Bratot, Bill77 and a whole bunch of others were defending it for one excuse ("reason") or another and it is a bit hypocritical for you now to come and preach to RTG, Vangelovski or others about how to approach the struggle. Go back and see how disrespectful and offensive you have been to others that had an opposing view, e.g. I. Aleksandrov (someone who has put nearly 2 decades of his life into the Macedonian Cause from a very young age) and then see if the pot is not calling someone else black.

Lastly, it was not long ago (June or July this year) that you were also advocating against declaring the Interim Accord null and void for fear of losing UN membership and, in all honesty, I can really not put much ideological faith in what you stand for after those events. Sure, you do make a positive contribution in some other areas and I can see convergence with the main aims and objectives of the MTO Macedonian Cause but I simply can not trust your ideological stand based on your resent history here on MTO.

So pochit,
I.

Although I might have different views on some issues I did proved my will to comply about the general questions.

Having different opinions on how to achieve the same aim is not a ideological incompetence.

It would be also more appropriate if you avoid speaking on behalf of other people and to use them as a shield for your stands.
First of all I didn't compared myself with anyone specificaly, but if that is necessary to provide someone's credibility since mine is being questioned lets see some practical merits.

Another thing is your history on MTO, maybe you should make one introspection for yourself as well, before delivering mine.

So pochit,
M

[Risto the Great]

As I said, from obvious reasons, the detailed suggestions for the solution will not be revealed in the public forum.

A grand plan. I like it. When will we know they hate the new flag.

Do you remember when we talked about the assimilated Macedonians in Greece, many of who are relatives to some of us, and how you would not give up of them, that we could and should fight for the awakening of their?

Think of the same but in relation to the Macedonians from RoM, where you have higher level of awarness in a national frame, but they lack much of the ideological daintiness.

I never said they were not not Macedonians. I said I will never give up in believing these people are Macedonians and they can be redeemed. I have been known to embarrass them about their ideology at times.

The most answers are lying in the cognitive strategies, something like a marketing plan for a new product or introducing a new brand to them, with already given huge advatage by having ready powerful & recognizable brand name - Macedonia.

We have to induce their senses, to use form of communication that is aimed at influencing the attitude of a community toward some cause or position (see def. of propaganda).

The destructive approach is the one that suggest all of those who haven't yet adopted our level of acquaintance are 'bad apples' and putting them in a same basket with those who are openly plotting against our cause.

Have you ever read a newspaper and seen the consensus of a group of people who seem quite articulate and (for good reason) denounce something. It is influential. The MTO is influential.

You think I'm the only person that doesn't find you funny when you are trying to be smartass?

You must be Bratot. But then, I am directing my humble humour at your expense because you are yet to explain why asserting the deserved freedom and sovereignty of our people is rude, primitive raving and disrespectful. In fact, we can't know what you would do because you don't want to upset anyone whilst you have an opinion. Only one side is right, it is so painfully clear that a line needs to be drawn. You won't draw a line because you don't want to upset or offend anyone.

My remarks were clear and precise where your preaching has failed.

You might agree that Sam Vaknin is asserting freedom and sovereignty for Macedonians as well, judging from the simmilarities in your approaches.

1. Your remarks are more than often vague and almost impossible to understand. Smaller words will help you convey your real intent. You will respond by saying that is a typical response but I am being honest.

2. You want to compare me with Sam Vaknin .... ajde na zdravje. Go hold hands with your sellouts in a hippie commune and talk about how the new flag is good but the old flag is better but the new flag is good.

[Bratot]

It doesn't need much to go back and re-read my posts on this thread instead of making confusion and replacement of thesis.

You only confirm what Makedonin already stated bellow:

I have been writing response for your post RtG for almost three days. I wanted to relate issues that I see and discuss them, sensitively. However I read only scarcely over the posts here and I thought whom am I kidding with. I realized that no one cares anyways. I will just be dumped as traitor or many other nasty things just for someone to feel better.

Since I'm not the only one that you coudln't really convince with your approach, you may think again why several other people whether here or behind the forum have shared the same concerns with me.

While you might know what is your aim, you still lack the solution to achieve it.

When you will learn to value what other people say as well and put your vanity out of the way, I will gladly continue our discussion.

I began questioning my self, as I usually do. Why is it that we must use such rhetorics? Is it cause we are emotionally loaded? Is it that we ought to feel better about us, to feel greater Patriots than the others? I can go on and question all, but I don't see the reason to do that, nobody cares about it anyway.

So I came to see that to keep the "hard line" is not that hard at all! One only have to repeat the same thing over and over again.

What I find real hard, the real art is how to win over people, how to make them clear about the necessity of certain issues!

What I see is that all Macedonians fail miserable in that point. It is not strictly directed to MTO, it is directed to all, those in R. of Macedonia, those in Diaspora, those in UMD those in the Government. All in total.

We play the Patriot card all the time just to avoid listening to the other side attentively. It is hard to listen, specially when one have strict idea how things have to be. It is hard to listen when someone fears or favors someone above the other. It is hard to listen and to make conclusions upon partial views, on partial knowledge, especially it is hard to listen to someone when feeling in danger or attacked.

I can go on all day long, but it is worthless cause no one really cares to listen.


I only realize that we fail to bring the other Macedonians on accepting it, on realizing the necessity of it. I guess we can't expect something to be accepted with out showing understanding and acceptance our selfs.

There are many reasons for that. It is not to be found into the Diaspora only as some of you feel like I am accusing you off. It is found by each and every Macedonian on this planet.

Pozdrav

[fyrOM]

It seems to me that the intensity on his thread is high in the manner of being engrossed in winning a debate and point scoring as apposed to standing back and assessing the degree of relevance this flag or that flag would have to the current situation and what priority the flag has in comparison to those other issues. It looks like starting at the tail and working our way back to the head.

Yes the current flag was forced upon Macedonia and it may be degrading to some but is kicking dust up about it now going to be a distraction from the more serious issues of firstly rooting out the traitors lurking in high places who could drag the government down or at least hinder progress in the defence of the name or abating the formal preparations for the partitioning of RoM.

Further given at the time of the change of the flag the relevance of the 16 point star was know but also was known that the Macedonians also used an 8 point star amongst others and hence could it be that the new flag is not that abstract as it is thought to be and was labelled abstract so as to not raise the same objection raised against the 16 point star.

[Risto the Great]

Yes the current flag was forced upon Macedonia and it may be degrading to some but is kicking dust up about it now going to be a distraction from the more serious issues of firstly rooting out the traitors lurking in high places who could drag the government down or at least hinder progress in the defence of the name or abating the formal preparations for the partitioning of RoM.

Some intellectually challenged morons might agree with you OziMak.
But here is a tip, if we can't convince people that the new flag is wrong, then even if some traitor politician is screwing your arse he will deny it and others will be quick to support him. In other words, you will have no chance WHATSOEVER of proving right from wrong in other areas.

The flag is a symbol of the traitors. Attacking the flag is symbolic of attacking all that is wrong in Macedonia. No need to point the finger at the criminal politicians, point at the flag instead.The rest will follow.

[Risto the Great]

When you will learn to value what other people say as well and put your vanity out of the way, I will gladly continue our discussion.

No problem.
I note you did not respond to my statements at all.
Lets work through this together:

1. If I "put my vanity out of the way" will I have to support the new flag?
2. If I do have to support the new flag, how should I do it?
3. If I don't have to support the new flag, how should I do it?

These questions would not trouble someone who is ideologically sound.

Here is another question that you have never answered:

Please explain why asserting the deserved freedom and sovereignty of our people is rude, primitive raving and disrespectful.

[Vangelovski]

It seems to me that the intensity on his thread is high in the manner of being engrossed in winning a debate and point scoring as apposed to standing back and assessing the degree of relevance this flag or that flag would have to the current situation and what priority the flag has in comparison to those other issues. It looks like starting at the tail and working our way back to the head.

Yes the current flag was forced upon Macedonia and it may be degrading to some but is kicking dust up about it now going to be a distraction from the more serious issues of firstly rooting out the traitors lurking in high places who could drag the government down or at least hinder progress in the defence of the name or abating the formal preparations for the partitioning of RoM.

Further given at the time of the change of the flag the relevance of the 16 point star was know but also was known that the Macedonians also used an 8 point star amongst others and hence could it be that the new flag is not that abstract as it is thought to be and was labelled abstract so as to not raise the same objection raised against the 16 point star.

OziMak,

I usually ignore your garbage because it misses the point completely and this post is no different.

The key problem with the ventilator (and other capitulations) is not whether it has any historical significance (which it does not), or that it is degrading or any other feeling of repulsion that it may cause, the key problem is that it was not FREELY chosen by the Macedonian people. The whole point is FREE CHOICE. The Macedonian people should be FREE. That is the entire point. That is the Macedonian cause - FREEDOM. Do you understand? Please have a good think about what FREEDOM means and how it is relevant before you post any more irrelevant garbage.

[Big Bad Sven]

How much time is given to the freedom fighters in Macedonia? How much airtime have they received and how much influence do they have in Macedonia? Who has got influence in Macedonia? Is it Tose the dead musician?

Not a lot im afraind, espicially when you consider that in Skopje we have a little gheg shrine illegally built that idolizes shiptar heroes through out the ages, including the bastards that killed our people in 2001

The statues of skandenburg in Debar, tetovo and Skopje really make me feel really good as well

However i think the real crime here is the way how our recent heroes from 2001 are treated. No memorials, no medals, no thank you no nothing. Its like they never existed while gheg terrorists have shrines built for them are awarded laid back government jobs. To me i think that is the biggest crime and the one that has affected our people the most.

So in closing, i would say CECA is is more respected and has more "air time" then any macedonian hero, past and present

[julie]

ozimak .. The reason the issue of the flag is so heated is because it was part of the deal enforced on macedonia with the framework agreement . The new flag denotes acceptance of enforcement which was not freely chosen by our people as part of the grand plan in our extermination in line with the ramkovists .. Indigen , the question you asked of me where i left out the part i will not spit on a flag our people have died under . The greek flag , yes . I want my old flag back . Am going to ask forum members a question . If the macedonian anthem is played and the current flag is flown will you still stand up for macedonia ?