Ventilator

[Bill77]

Diaspora, za djabe se nervirame, nishto nomozhi da se stori........Nemozhime da gi razbudime narodot shto spie

I know you well enough and don't believe you mean this.

Makedonin and Bratot, what will it take for the reality to hit our people?

Education. But they will not listen unless we show some sensitivity (which we would expect the same in return). Be firm with them by all means, but educate them as you would your own child who is doing wrong. Stern, but avoid certain language. It would only make them rebel.

[makedonin]

kako mi velat mojte ,sedi si tamu, ne se meshaj, ne e tvoja rabota.

Neli e toa dobar sovet? Nekako mi e poznato kako apatichno zvuche!
Dodeka ednite mozhat da go kazhat drugite sa krivi sho go rekle. Neli gi taa izjavata prave isti? Toa e nolgu chesta izjava sho ja slusham od nashi iselenici tuka u germanija.
Slushaj gi tovjte. Mozh imat pravo.

Makedonin and Bratot, what will it take for the reality to hit our people?
Reality is, Macedonia was lost with the framework agreement

What should I tell you about reality. All you said is part of it. Still not complete.

I would also want to know how to make people wake up, if you find the cure tell me, I would gladly use it.

And as for the last. Yes it is true. However the word Macedonia is wrong on place.

Macedonia was doomed and partitioned 1912/13. Only small part revived, it is the Republic of Macedonia of today, and those who were operating in 1912/13 take care that it disappear exactly as it was planed.

We are only helping them, as we did previously and during 1912/13 where VMRO have been killing them off between each other.

I can't get emotional about this things anymore.

Education. But they will not listen unless we show some sensitivity (which we would expect the same in return). Be firm with them by all means, but educate them as you would your own child who is doing wrong. Stern, but avoid certain language. It would only make them rebel.

Ah Bill, you show more patient and virtue in expressing what I sometimes want to, and fail to do.

[Bill77]

I'll admit i use to look at the Macedonian state flag in a different way. Until it was explained to me (be it a few times) but eventually i accepted the facts from some of the members here and my views towards this flag has now changed. I found these members firm but respectful and thank them for that. It could have turned different. Mabe not deep inside, but pride makes you act in strange ways.

[Risto the Great]

Makedonin, thank you for your response. You have encouraged patience but you also admit you don't have a solution for the people who do not understand.

I am involved in business negotiations every day, I know you don't have to be aggressive to find a solution. I also know when a deal cannot be done. In this situation, I think a deal CAN be done. Anyone who understands logic soon understands why the current flag is a capitulation. If people cannot understand logic, then they are not worth talking to. They are donkeys. They will follow others who understand after a while.

20 years ago, there were many Macedonians that preferred to have a closer relationship with Yugoslavia. Now they are less. Clearly things can change.

You have not got a solution. Bratot wants to be nice to "less aware" people but has no solution. In fact, the only thing that has not been tried in Macedonia is to allow the "non-negotiable types" some exposure in the public arena. This is the only thing that has not been tried. Every other version of "reasonableness" has been tried ... and failed.

We are at war for our identity, surely it is time to do something different.

If we all agree that negotiations should cease, then why would we continue to negotiate with our own people on the same matter?

Some people think my solution is to bitch slap anyone that defies my belief system. Absolute rubbish. I just see the futility of talking to those people at this time. Find me 1 Macedonian in every square kilometre of Macedonia who agrees with me and we will have the revolution of the mind that is necessary. Can we find 25,000 people like this in Macedonia?

HALF JOKING: If you think being nice is the way to go, do it .... I can be the bad cop and you be the good cop, if it gets the job done, so be it.

I just made up a new Macedonian political party:

Nie Samite

Nie Samite seeks the establishment of a new Macedonia based on sustainable social and economic development; genuine democracy, participation, equality and justice at all levels of the economy and society; and a lasting and meaningful peace with unity of purpose and action.

Specifically:
Nie Samite is a Macedonian Republican party. Its objective is to end external influence in Macedonia. It seeks national self-determination, the unity and independence of Macedonia as a sovereign state.

Nie Samite is committed to the transformation of Macedonian society and to a negotiated and democratic settlement. It knows that peace is not simply the absence of violence. Real peace - a lasting peace - is based on democracy, justice, freedom and equality.

Nie Samite has a vision that sees beyond the present conflict and beyond the present phase of Macedonian history. The party's vision foresees the unity of the people of this land. It is a vision for the redistribution of wealth, for the well-being of the aged, for the advancement of youth, for the liberation of women and for the protection of Macedonian children. It is a vision for a free Macedonia and a free people.

Nie Samite is committed to its peace strategy. It has sought with honesty and integrity to construct a peace process which reaches out and embraces everyone on the land on the basis of equality. Its objective must be for an agreement that will earn the allegiance and respect of all sections of the Macedonian people.

I changed a couple of words from another political party of another country.

Nie Samite means We Ourselves, in Irish it means Sinn Fein

[Risto the Great]

Truthfully, if Macedonia has not matured into a nation that has no question mark on its sovereignty, then it is yet to have a leader worth mentioning.

[Daniel the Great]

You are absolutely right RTG, the forced adoption of the new flag is capitulation, it's a sign of great weakness, it robs the Macedonians of there pride, dignity and sovereignty. If you think logically the current flag can not be seen as something that represents the Macedonian people, the original flag does represent the Macedonian people.

[Vangelovski]

You are absolutely right RTG, the forced adoption of the new flag is capitulation, it's a sign of great weakness, it robs the Macedonians of there pride, dignity and sovereignty.

It also robs the Macedonians of both their individual and collective rights and freedoms.

[makedonin]

Makedonin, thank you for your response.

No problem Risto.

You have encouraged patience but you also admit you don't have a solution for the people who do not understand.

I don't think that those who don't understand can be made to understand, so you stated it correctly that I don't have solution about that.

However this people should and ought not be excluded. The old glue to keep the people together is hard cash.
When people have hard cash to lose, they fight for it. Stirred up with the right Ideology it will give the gun powder to blow any enemy off.

It is the basics of all western societies and statehood.

Correct me if I am wrong.

I would like to exchange the "hard cash" with "home land", but in this global world, "home land" is losing it's meaning. People go where they can make cash for better living, and are loyal to that country that gives them this opportunity. When circumstances change, they abandon ship and go else where.

It is called globalization.

HALF JOKING: If you think being nice is the way to go, do it .... I can be the bad cop and you be the good cop, if it gets the job done, so be it.

Half serious:

Maybe we should try it out with in the new Party "Nie Samite".

How ever I would like the name to be changed into "Samo Nie". Uppss new name dispute.

[Daniel the Great]

It also robs the Macedonians of both their individual and collective rights and freedoms.

Oh absolutely, but people don't seem to see that these days.

[Bratot]

There is a new post , another Albanian political party has formed in RoM. This is a reality. 5 political parties in a small country. Framework Agreement exists. This is a reality. The flag has been enforced. This is a reality. SDMS and VMRO are either negotiating and being the nunkovi for the new Macedonian name. This is a reality. Still, we wait. Macedonians in Macedonia are doing nothing.
This is a reality.
Macedonians worldwide protested years ago collectively against capitulation. This is a reality. No violence, no guns, but it brought attention to our plight. Peacefully. Still, we wait.

Did you read those two messages that you've sent to me some time ago?

Tell me that you're not a hypocrite.

Instead of trying to UNDERSTAND what I'm trying to achieve you keep on with your imagined rivalry.

Makedonin, brat, we wait. We wait for the further partitioning of Macedonia. We wait for our new fucked up name. We wait for fear of hurting peoples feelings. We wait and use the gentle softly softly approach for RoM. All this waiting. This is a reality. Macedonia, game set, match, over. This is my sad reality.

It seems you are about to impress someone than to show some self-criticism and more comprehension on the issue.

Diaspora, za djabe se nervirame, nishto nomozhi da se stori. Nie sme pri krajot, ke pulime od daleku i ke kukame , ke puknime od inajet, i nishto nemozhime da pravime. Nemozhime da gi razbudime narodot shto spie, ne im gajle na niv, poveke, neznam samata shto se nerviram poveke. Barem znam, kako mi velat mojte , sedi si tamu, ne se meshaj, ne e tvoja rabota.
Makedonin and Bratot, what will it take for the reality to hit our people?
Reality is, Macedonia was lost with the framework agreement

What happen for you to wake up?

Or you have been born with all wisdom that one Macedonian should have on.

I mene mi velea batali ideologii nema leb od toa, izgubiv dragoceni godini od mladosta ama ete.. srceto ne mi dava da krenam race.

The reality is what you agreed on to be, if you don't have the stomach for it, this is not a job for you.
In 1000 years our people didn't lost the drive to have a freed piece of Macedonia and you slobber on a forums how everything is over, we are finished, no hope for us.

I might not have all the answers but I have the courage to give suggestions or solutions.

With or without your help I will aim to accomplish what I believe in and until there are also other people that believe we can succeed - we will do it.

As for the suggestions or solutions, don't ask me to reveal them as to prove the case on a public forum.

P.S. And don't forget to re-read those private messages and you can write me another one explaining what have changed in a small amount of time, because I don't think you have split personality.

[Bratot]

Bratot wants to be nice to "less aware" people but has no solution. In fact, the only thing that has not been tried in Macedonia is to allow the "non-negotiable types" some exposure in the public arena. This is the only thing that has not been tried. Every other version of "reasonableness" has been tried ... and failed.

Have you ever asked me for a solution or have we get into that part in our discussion?


What is the problem with you, are you trying to win an argument for feeding your ego or you want to make some sense in all this post wasting?

What Bratot said, is that you WONT persuade anyone by being rude, primitive raving and disrespectful.

Being agressive in negotiation has nothing to do with literal insults.

I could as well lose my patience with you and end this discussion in a manner that you would find not appropriate for a two mature persons with more things to bring them closer than divide. Who would benefit from it?

If I have shown understanding for all of you, is it really that hard to restrain to label everyone that you find that doesn't comply with your perception of a good Macedonian?

[fyrOM]

Julie I think we have looked at some of the problems already on the MTO and you are right in saying we get nowhere. There is much in the attitude of the Macedonians in RoM left to be desired. Not having been to he other parts of Macedonia I can only guess that it not really any different.

The problem is the action is in RoM so we in the Diaspora are left to being cheer squads like the public at a sporting match. We can say they should do this or that but the only time anything will actually happen is when action is in RoM.

, ne im gajle na niv, poveke, neznam samata shto se nerviram poveke. Barem znam, kako mi velat mojte , sedi si tamu, ne se meshaj, ne e tvoja rabota.
t

Mine say the same about don’t worry about it. If it wasn’t for the identity and it was just economic issues believe me I really wouldn’t care. If a waiter hears you speaking in English and gives you greasy looks then leaves you sitting for ages only to appear for a moment to ask for your drinks order leaving you to ask to have your table cleared and cleaned from he previous customers says a lot about attitude. Inajetot muje pogolem od na magareto. I encountered this sort of thing too many times…I even got told to go home and a few choice words from a stranger for just walking down he street talking to a friend in English. It looks like two mentalities have set in…a bunker mentality of look after yourself first has set it or the confident I’m a cosmopolitan who holidays in Greece dances to Serbian music cooks better than a French chef and writes in English on the internet don’t worry the name thing is already won it will only take a bit more time for the world un eu ect to admit it.

Its not impossible for Macedonians to get more active but it does require cooperation which is one thing we lack. The dumb thing is we already have some of the institutions in place we just wont talk to each other.

See Post009

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=4833

[fyrOM]

Bratot I do hope you have some ideas for a solution. I think all of us here want a solution but from our humble positions don’t know what to do more than what’s being done already.

[Risto the Great]

Have you ever asked me for a solution or have we get into that part in our discussion?


What is the problem with you, are you trying to win an argument for feeding your ego or you want to make some sense in all this post wasting?

What Bratot said, is that you WONT persuade anyone by being rude, primitive raving and disrespectful.

Being agressive in negotiation has nothing to do with literal insults.

I could as well lose my patience with you and end this discussion in a manner that you would find not appropriate for a two mature persons with more things to bring them closer than divide. Who would benefit from it?

If I have shown understanding for all of you, is it really that hard to restrain to label everyone that you find that doesn't comply with your perception of a good Macedonian?

Bratot, I am way past "good Macedonians", I am now looking for "useful Macedonians".

Your solution is something about being respectful to people, some of whom are plotting to destroy Macedonia.

I question the actions of MANY Macedonians both inside Macedonia and outside of Macedonia. I am more impatient with them than I ever have been. I am older than you, you will understand as your sense of hope is replaced by the reality of our people.

How much time is given to the freedom fighters in Macedonia? How much airtime have they received and how much influence do they have in Macedonia? Who has got influence in Macedonia? Is it Tose the dead musician?

Seriously, you are sounding like the UMD. They said "no negotiations" a few weeks ago and now do not know what to do about it without offending anyone.

Give us your solution Bratot. Tell us why it will work.

Also tell me why asserting the deserved freedom and sovereignty of our people is rude, primitive raving and disrespectful. I think you have these issues confused with complaining about about the lack of kajmak in my tursko kafe.

[Vangelovski]

Bratot,

I'm still waiting for you to provide an example of what you consider "rude, primitive raving and disrespectful" in our comments, in addition to the earlier "double standards" and "egocentrism".

I would also be interested to know how you think dealing with our vassal politicians and their puppets (for example, UMD) with "manners" would change their political views, because they are the type of people that my comments are directed at.