Ventilator

[Risto the Great]

I don't think you have any other enemy except yourself for this moment.

If I think you are wrong and I want to put you on the right track, should I start with calling you stupid, vassal, lazy, or even a enemy?

Bratot, you either support the flag or you don't.
You apparently don't, but are loathe to tell anyone about it. This is your approach because you think it is better not to offend anyone. It sounds like the Government who says they will not do anything to change the identity of Macedonians but think Northern Macedonia is OK. Very UMDesque. You run the risk of being ambiguous. This is dangerous and not the actions of a leader.

If I am wrong about something, I want someone to tell me. And I want some bloody good reasons. If I continue being ignorant, I am no good for the Cause. There appears to be a few of these people in Macedonia.

You basically feel animosity to everyone that haven't reach your level of awareness, but yet you are uncapable to transmit your knowledge to the people.

I guarantee you that my transmission of knowledge online is far more clearer and consistent than yours.

I don't think I am overly intelligent. I know I can communicate well so I use it to my advantage. If you are suggesting my level of awareness is on a higher level than Macedonians in Macedonia, then you are being far more disrespectful to them than I am.

We need only one enough homogenous critical mass that will take the stake and carry on the changes.

We can't even agree about the flag. We have to stay quiet on this so we don't offend anyone about their ignorance. There is no chance of making a critical mass of people with such divergent belief systems. Give them the Macedonian Cause, let them chew on it, if they choke (either in the Diaspora AND in Macedonia) ... good riddance.

[Bratot]

Bratot, you either support the flag or you don't.
You apparently don't, but are loathe to tell anyone about it. This is your approach because you think it is better not to offend anyone. It sounds like the Government who says they will not do anything to change the identity of Macedonians but think Northern Macedonia is OK. Very UMDesque. You run the risk of being ambiguous. This is dangerous and not the actions of a leader.

If this is what you came with after all my posts, than your logic is poor as well as your ability to recognize a mistake.

Your hypothesis about my approach is just another insinuation, my intention was to make positive input but you think the best way to be persuasive is to attack and offend people.

I hardly imagine a leader that have no respect for his people, painting everything in B&W.

If I am wrong about something, I want someone to tell me. And I want some bloody good reasons. If I continue being ignorant, I am no good for the Cause. There appears to be a few of these people in Macedonia.
I guarantee you that my transmission of knowledge online is far more clearer and consistent than yours.

I don't think I am overly intelligent. I know I can communicate well so I use it to my advantage. If you are suggesting my level of awareness is on a higher level than Macedonians in Macedonia, then you are being far more disrespectful to them than I am.

Don't guarantee something you can't confirm.

I'm not a contenstant in this discussion nor I need the crowds to praise me.

In this post you feed your ego, rather than serving good example.

The level of awareness vary in every Macedonian, irrespectivelly where he lives, but since YOU suggest you know better than those Macedonians you've offended based on their residence is hardly to provide any advantage to you.

We can't even agree about the flag. We have to stay quiet on this so we don't offend anyone about their ignorance. There is no chance of making a critical mass of people with such divergent belief systems. Give them the Macedonian Cause, let them chew on it, if they choke (either in the Diaspora AND in Macedonia) ... good riddance.

I haven't heard politeness to hurt someone's manhood.

It's frustrating to see only a critique without any positive solutions.

Instead, few members constantly blowing their favourite lines: vassals, trators, UMD this and that, ramkovists, ignorants, brainwashed, idiots, serbomans, yugos, bugaromans, slaves etc. etc.

I can't do much about it, only offering a friendly remark.

[julie]

Bratot, no one is attacking you, you are an intelligent man and there is frustration here. Most people here are wanting the same thing. The diaspora is frustrated, accept the criticism constantly, I use my own family as an example.
What is it that needs to happen from the diaspora, when the diaspora are faced with scathing criticism?
There IS a servitude mentality and that stems from what has been enforced. Violence is not the answer nor is criticism.
When you say there needs to be a collectve approach, how do we do that ? How do we work from the diaspora to effect a change in the people's consiousness? We are all here for the same reason. No one is any better than anyone else nor is anyone here less of a Macedonian, and the people I personally know here have had family that has endured hardship FOR the Macedonian cause.
United we can achieve so much, but the divisiveness you speak of brat does not come from the diaspora, we dont have such thick skin and it wears, to the point of giving up when criticised
United we can, and we need positive solutions.
The Macedonian cause here is a good example of everyone working together.
Next step is how to effect a change, working together, to implement something that will inspire every Macedonian globally to take a stand

[Makedonska_Kafana]

United we can

Kukla, far to many organizations use that term (misleading) including the UMD and they can't back it up. We, would be better served to embrace a "Pro-Active We Can" and "Macedonia for the Macedonians"

[Risto the Great]

Bratot, I am going to take baby steps with you. Here is an extract from the Macedonian Cause:

Ensuring the absolute recognition, acknowledgement and acceptance by the International Community of the;

1) national, ethno-cultural and historic name of Macedonia,
2) Macedonian people, language and identity
3) Macedonian culture, symbols and folklore
4) Macedonian ancestry, heritage and history in its entirety
5) Macedonian Orthodox Church

If you agree with this extract, we can't fuck around with making people feel good about their capitulation on the flag matter.

If I have misunderstood anything you have posted previously, it is because I can't understand your version of English or you are deliberately trying to be difficult to understand.

So lets make it simple so you can avoid being ambiguous:

- Do you agree with the Macedonian Cause? (YES/NO)
- Is the Kutlesh Sonce the real flag of the Macedonian people? (YES/NO)
- Is the current flag forced on the Macedonians? (YES/NO)
- Is the current flag in violation with the Macedonian Cause? (YES/NO)

Perhaps we might get some clarity from you. Remember, this thread is about the flag. If you want to start a thread about "How not to upset Macedonians in Macedonia", please do it on another thread.

[Bratot]

Bratot, I am going to take baby steps with you. Here is an extract from the Macedonian Cause:



If you agree with this extract, we can't fuck around with making people feel good about their capitulation on the flag matter.

Who mentioned anything about making them feel good about their capitulation?

I was specifically CLEAR on what I disagree with you. And it is not the flag, rather the abusive approach in your preachment.

If you lack patience and persistence to get in a constructive manner to people's mind and souls you should leave it to someone who simply have the appropriate attitude.

If I have misunderstood anything you have posted previously, it is because I can't understand your version of English or you are deliberately trying to be difficult to understand.

It doesn't have to be the case with you, but sometimes I have a feeling that the language "card" is use especially when the other side is lacking arguments and all of sudden happen to not understand even my simple English, while there haven't been any problem with it when we agreed on other issues.

So lets make it simple so you can avoid being ambiguous:

- Do you agree with the Macedonian Cause? (YES/NO)
- Is the Kutlesh Sonce the real flag of the Macedonian people? (YES/NO)
- Is the current flag forced on the Macedonians? (YES/NO)
- Is the current flag in violation with the Macedonian Cause? (YES/NO)

Perhaps we might get some clarity from you. Remember, this thread is about the flag. If you want to start a thread about "How not to upset Macedonians in Macedonia", please do it on another thread.

It's kind of a weird to ask me if I agree with the Macedonian Cause when we both participated in drawing it on that thread, however, since the sheriff attitude is being (mis)used here on a large scale I have no other choice than answer, right... so the answer on all of the above questions is - YES!

And please, don't 'dispatch' me arrogantly on another thread under the justification of being off topic.

I will use this occassion to suggest the "hub of trust" to be ingrained in the Macedonian Cause:

- Every Macedonian shall stand for brotherhood and mutual respect.

- Every Macedonian shall imbibe the values of discipline and hard work.

- The dignity and integrity of every Macedonian is sacred as well the acceptance as equal in the Macedonian circle.

You can clarify yourself on these points as well if you want Risto, I doubt there is an argument against enlisting them in our Cause.

Pozdrav

[Bill77]

I am going to leave you guys with this.

Untill, both sides (Diaspora re Citizens) accept, acknowledge there own ill feelings towards the other,and accept we each have issues instead of getting offended and denying it,
kje se jadime i jadime za vekovi. kje ostanime (ako ne sne sega ostanati) zad i po prosti od shiptarite.

I will admit it, "Majority" of the diaspora will shit there pants if they had to take up arms and defend Macedonia. They will make up all the excuses just not to go. dane izgubat kujkite.
Yet they are the biggest critics.

For those in the diaspora that would go and fight like many Croats did, I would not be surprised if these Macedonians from the diaspora get charged for the ammunition they use. pojketo makedonci gragjani samo za para znat nishto drugo koga ne vidat makedoncite od stransvo. i kako shto rece Juli. " if we do nothing, we are not seen as patriots, if we try and help, we are told to get lost or have stupid comments thrown at us such as come here and live"

Our people need major therapy. Rather than being self critical, we get offended (mabe truth hurts) and retaliate, close our eyes to what the other feels rather than trying to fix things.

[Risto the Great]

Bratot, thanks for clarifying your position.

If someone passionately supports the current flag and calls you an extremist for rejecting it, how will you react?

You will teach them nicely ... unlike me who is disappointed with their lack of comprehension of such basic matters.

When they still call you an extremist, you will do what?

They will paint you into a corner and make you look like an extremist idiot who is standing in the way of progress. How do I know this? Because that is what has happened to all Macedonians who have expressed similar sentiments so far.

Imagine for 1 second what it would be like if the MAJORITY of Macedonians shared your and my sentiments about the flag (for example). Obviously they do not.

I will use this occassion to suggest the "hub of trust" to be ingrained in the Macedonian Cause:

- Every Macedonian shall stand for brotherhood and mutual respect.
- Every Macedonian shall imbibe the values of discipline and hard work.
- The dignity and integrity of every Macedonian is sacred as well the acceptance as equal in the Macedonian circle.

I can't agree. They are rules on being humane which have no specific relationship to the Macedonian Cause. In fact, they can get in the way of the Macedonian Cause .... the truth is that some Macedonians are in fact not equal "in the Macedonian circle". This probably sounds inhumane but is quite necessary for the Cause in my opinion.

[Risto the Great]

I am going to leave you guys with this.

Untill, both sides (Diaspora re Citizens) accept, acknowledge there own ill feelings towards the other,and accept we each have issues instead of getting offended and denying it,
kje se jadime i jadime za vekovi. kje ostanime (ako ne sne sega ostanati) zad i po prosti od shiptarite.

I will admit it, "Majority" of the diaspora will shit there pants if they had to take up arms and defend Macedonia. They will make up all the excuses just not to go. dane izgubat kujkite.
Yet they are the biggest critics.

For those in the diaspora that would go and fight like many Croats did, I would not be surprised if these Macedonians from the diaspora get charged for the ammunition they use. pojketo makedonci gragjani samo za para znat nishto drugo koga ne vidat makedoncite od stransvo. i kako shto rece Juli. " if we do nothing, we are not seen as patriots, if we try and help, we are told to get lost or have stupid comments thrown at us such as come here and live"

Our people need major therapy. Rather than being self critical, we get offended (mabe truth hurts) and retaliate, close our eyes to what the other feels rather than trying to fix things.

Bill, you would have to look at how hard and how long the Croats fought to avoid being swallowed up by the Yugo'ness before you can compare them with Macedonians. If I was being nice I would say the Macedonians did not fight as hard because their language was so different. If I was being nasty ... I would say other things that question their passion.

[Bill77]

Bill, you would have to look at how hard and how long the Croats fought to avoid being swallowed up by the Yugo'ness before you can compare them with Macedonians. If I was being nice I would say the Macedonians did not fight as hard because their language was so different. If I was being nasty ... I would say other things that question their passion.

You are correct. while the Croats "Ustashi" were fighting Tito and always held a grudge against the serbs, our boys died for Yugoslavia and later on, the next generations were getting SFRY and bratsvo jedinstvo tats on there arms.

But all i was getting at is CHANGE. And we can't change untill we face our own demons and try to correct it, rather then retaliating at something we are all guilty of and pointing fingers.

RTG... the diaspora here in Melbourne were just as bad in the Yugo days. Melbourne had a serbian backed soccer club called JUST while Preston Makedonia was around. 50% of these JUST supporters were Macedonians. We use to punch on amongst each other

Now we can ignore and deny this stuff happened or....... face it, admit it, be disgusted with it, and move on make sure it never happens again.

Sorry i went off topic.

[Vangelovski]

Bratot,

I'm still not sure what you consider so "arrogant", "egocentric" and a "double standard" seeing as you never provided specific examples. As such, I can only conclude that you were offended by being told the truth. If that's the case then I don't think activism is the right past time for you.

I stated that the question, 'where was the diaspora during the 2001 war', is a disengenious tactic used by vassals in order to deflect criticism that they neither think nor act as the autonomous beings that they are, because quite frankly, that is exactly what it is. I did not direct that statement at Macedonians in Macedonia, but VASSALS regardless of whether they are in Macedonia or in the diaspora. As far as I can tell, Pheonix and RtG basically did the same.

The fact that you took offence at the glaringly obvious is not a matter of offending your code of acceptable conduct, but rather challenging a specific political view that you have stated.

As for your personal subjective code of conduct that you want to add to the cause, I have to agree with RtG. They have nothing to do with the Macedonian cause, but are rather your own personal codes of conduct that you would like to enforce.

[Lion of Macedon]

I don't think Lion of Macedon understands what Macedonians have been through, and are going through right now. The people who changed the flag, the same people who got us to change the Constitution, and the people trying to get us to change our name - the whole point of that is to cause division, and create division within Macedonian society. What Lion of Macedon thinks about the current flag, it wasn't our first choice and it was imposed on us, by foriegn interference. He is in fact voting to reward and acknowledge foriegn interference in what should have been a soveriegn matter., but I don't think he understands that.

Pelister i clearly understand mate, it is you who does not understand! No one has the right to tell you to completley change for ones self satisfaction, the first government was sdsm led by kiro gligorov and he clearly demonstrated exactly what happen hence why his face is half blown off! and it is extremley unfortunate that first government of the republic of macedonia sold their souls for those peasent greeks. We are a sell out narod like or not we drag each other down as soon as someone rises up for the good of our intrests and that must come to and end! read your books, find your facts, then speak!

[Bratot]

Bratot, thanks for clarifying your position.

If someone passionately supports the current flag and calls you an extremist for rejecting it, how will you react?

You will teach them nicely ... unlike me who is disappointed with their lack of comprehension of such basic matters.

When they still call you an extremist, you will do what?

They will paint you into a corner and make you look like an extremist idiot who is standing in the way of progress. How do I know this? Because that is what has happened to all Macedonians who have expressed similar sentiments so far.

If I let every idiot to get me down with some labelling I should leave this activism 6 years ago.

However, I don't think that behaving like villager on a vegetables market will do any good for what I stand.

It is not about being nice, it's about being reasonable and persistent.

There isn't anything more successful when one argues persuasively and get the observants favour, you will win not only the argument but also win over more followers for your cause.

There are people that doesn't see problem in the current flag because for them it represent a state flag, something that is expected to be respected and defended, it is not because they are traitors, vassals, idiots.
Most of them simply doesn't have the same level awarness that we do, and our mission should be to make them realize what we already agreed on.

It's same about the name negotiations, many people are deluded and misinformed by the politicians or media and think that nothing will happen if we change the name, that we shall benefit from it by entering NATO/EU after, they are not familiar with all arguments sitting on our side.

It's because those regular people are left on their own, there are just individuals that have time to research and maybe more life wisdom or education to oppose the propaganda, but that is not enough.

Imagine for 1 second what it would be like if the MAJORITY of Macedonians shared your and my sentiments about the flag (for example). Obviously they do not.

Obviously not the majority, but that should make them our target group.

If you approach them like some of them did to you by labelling you, what will be the effect? Only further dissolution and delayed progress which might cost us a lot.

I can't agree. They are rules on being humane which have no specific relationship to the Macedonian Cause. In fact, they can get in the way of the Macedonian Cause .... the truth is that some Macedonians are in fact not equal "in the Macedonian circle". This probably sounds inhumane but is quite necessary for the Cause in my opinion.

Bratot,

I'm still not sure what you consider so "arrogant", "egocentric" and a "double standard" seeing as you never provided specific examples. As such, I can only conclude that you were offended by being told the truth. If that's the case then I don't think activism is the right past time for you.

I stated that the question, 'where was the diaspora during the 2001 war', is a disengenious tactic used by vassals in order to deflect criticism that they neither think nor act as the autonomous beings that they are, because quite frankly, that is exactly what it is. I did not direct that statement at Macedonians in Macedonia, but VASSALS regardless of whether they are in Macedonia or in the diaspora. As far as I can tell, Pheonix and RtG basically did the same.

All of you had took offense on my question "How many Diaspora Macedonians came to fight in 2001" without consideration of the previously made mockery of the Macedonians in the Republic about the same issue.

It is good to separate who has the credibility to give such critique, that's all.

The fact that you took offence at the glaringly obvious is not a matter of offending your code of acceptable conduct, but rather challenging a specific political view that you have stated.

As for your personal subjective code of conduct that you want to add to the cause, I have to agree with RtG. They have nothing to do with the Macedonian cause, but are rather your own personal codes of conduct that you would like to enforce.

The points I gave in the example should be the basis for our mutual understanding and cooperative functioning in implementation of the Cause.

The only reason why Risto and yourself reject it, it's because you failed to meet those criteria.

Maybe it's time to realize that you are not above the rest of Macedonians, and that there will be no success with autocratic attitude.

[makedonin]

I have been writing response for your post RtG for almost three days. I wanted to relate issues that I see and discuss them, sensitively. However I read only scarcely over the posts here and I thought whom am I kidding with. I realized that no one cares anyways. I will just be dumped as traitor or many other nasty things just for someone to feel better.

I have the impression some of us might be understood to be "hardliners" making unreasonable demands on Macedonians in Macedonia.

Still I would like to give short answer to this one.

I think that the issue being "hardliner" is the least concern for me! I have been called so for the past few years. I was trying to bring over this issues near to those who I know in the Republic. I used similar rhetoric as some of you do.

I only ended up disillusioned. I failed to reach almost anyone. The first thing that happen when talking to someone with that kind of rhetoric is to distance them self from you cause they feel attacked. Than they feel the need to counter attack. It ends up only in accusation war and nothing good comes out of it.

I began questioning my self, as I usually do. Why is it that we must use such rhetorics? Is it cause we are emotionally loaded? Is it that we ought to feel better about us, to feel greater Patriots than the others? I can go on and question all, but I don't see the reason to do that, nobody cares about it anyway.

So I came to see that to keep the "hard line" is not that hard at all! One only have to repeat the same thing over and over again.

What I find real hard, the real art is how to win over people, how to make them clear about the necessity of certain issues!

To be honest, I don't really know how to do that even today. I fail miserable in that!

What I see is that all Macedonians fail miserable in that point. It is not strictly directed to MTO, it is directed to all, those in R. of Macedonia, those in Diaspora, those in UMD those in the Government. All in total.

We play the Patriot card all the time just to avoid listening to the other side attentively. It is hard to listen, specially when one have strict idea how things have to be. It is hard to listen when someone fears or favors someone above the other. It is hard to listen and to make conclusions upon partial views, on partial knowledge, especially it is hard to listen to someone when feeling in danger or attacked.

I can go on all day long, but it is worthless cause no one really cares to listen.

I wonder if our enemies have achieved their goal of division? It is a scary question I always avoid answering.

something or possibly many things seem to have tipped you away from the MTO.

It is not that I am tipped away from MTO, nor is it that I am tipped away from some issues. I still agree on how the Cause is defined.

I only realize that we fail to bring the other Macedonians on accepting it, on realizing the necessity of it. I guess we can't expect something to be accepted with out showing understanding and acceptance our selfs.

There are many reasons for that. It is not to be found into the Diaspora only as some of you feel like I am accusing you off. It is found by each and every Macedonian on this planet.

I am disillusioned about this at least.

If we tell them they care about a flag imposed on them by Greece, let them think about it for a while. If it upsets them to hear it from outsiders, they should find out who has done more for Macedonia. If they say "we live here, we know what to do and you should support us" .... I will say you have 100% support from me as long as we are working for the Macedonian Cause (as defined).

It is fair. It is a stance. However I doubt that it will bring anything about. I guess it is telling me that you feel on the right side safe and secure about your world view, although the ship is sinking.

It is all right with me.

I am going to leave you guys with this.

Untill, both sides (Diaspora re Citizens) accept, acknowledge there own ill feelings towards the other,and accept we each have issues instead of getting offended and denying it,
kje se jadime i jadime za vekovi. kje ostanime (ako ne sne sega ostanati) zad i po prosti od shiptarite.

I will admit it, "Majority" of the diaspora will shit there pants if they had to take up arms and defend Macedonia. They will make up all the excuses just not to go. dane izgubat kujkite.
Yet they are the biggest critics.

For those in the diaspora that would go and fight like many Croats did, I would not be surprised if these Macedonians from the diaspora get charged for the ammunition they use. pojketo makedonci gragjani samo za para znat nishto drugo koga ne vidat makedoncite od stransvo. i kako shto rece Juli. " if we do nothing, we are not seen as patriots, if we try and help, we are told to get lost or have stupid comments thrown at us such as come here and live"

Our people need major therapy. Rather than being self critical, we get offended (mabe truth hurts) and retaliate, close our eyes to what the other feels rather than trying to fix things.

I agree with the above said 100%.

[julie]

There is a new post , another Albanian political party has formed in RoM. This is a reality. 5 political parties in a small country. Framework Agreement exists. This is a reality. The flag has been enforced. This is a reality. SDMS and VMRO are either negotiating and being the nunkovi for the new Macedonian name. This is a reality. Still, we wait. Macedonians in Macedonia are doing nothing. This is a reality. Macedonians worldwide protested years ago collectively against capitulation. This is a reality. No violence, no guns, but it brought attention to our plight. Peacefully. Still, we wait.
Makedonin, brat, we wait. We wait for the further partitioning of Macedonia. We wait for our new fucked up name. We wait for fear of hurting peoples feelings. We wait and use the gentle softly softly approach for RoM.
All this waiting. This is a reality. Macedonia, game set, match, over. This is my sad reality.
Diaspora, za djabe se nervirame, nishto nomozhi da se stori. Nie sme pri krajot, ke pulime od daleku i ke kukame , ke puknime od inajet, i nishto nemozhime da pravime. Nemozhime da gi razbudime narodot shto spie, ne im gajle na niv, poveke, neznam samata shto se nerviram poveke. Barem znam, kako mi velat mojte , sedi si tamu, ne se meshaj, ne e tvoja rabota.
Makedonin and Bratot, what will it take for the reality to hit our people?
Reality is, Macedonia was lost with the framework agreement