Ventilator

[Soldier of Macedon]

When you are labelling those people what do you think it makes you look in their eyes?...........How many Diaspora Macedonians came to Macedonia in 2001 to defend the country?

I trust an explanation regarding the irony in your statement isn't required.

Mate even Vijnik od Makedonia had a fund raiser for the BRAT with his little buddy Struja.

Mate, you're about a second away from being banned again for compulsive lying and stupidity, try it again, and this time you won't be returning 'uber' Boge.

For a proud Macedonian I would be ashamed to admit that my language skills are insufficient.

I know plenty of Macedonians who can't speak the literary language as well as some of the sellouts in Macedonia. Where is the shame? Don't let your personal views and animosity towards others sway you, Makedonin, we all know what is right and wrong.

[Phoenix]

I find the... "How many Diaspora Macedonians came to Macedonia in 2001 to defend the country" question really disappointing and very typical of the greater ills of our people and our nation.

The biggest problem of the Macedonian people is their belief that 'help' will come from 'outside', rather than taking responsibility and accountability for our own actions and controlling our own destiny.

I live in Australia, this is MY home, if Australia faces a potential invasion from the fictional 'Orangeland' tomorrow I will take up arms and defend with my life what is dear to me, how many Macedonians from the Republic will come to my aid I wonder...???

But that's not to paint some self serving, selfish picture of the Macedonians in the diaspora, it highlights the untmost importance of defending what's yours today and what will remain for your family tomorrow.
Sadly too many Macedonians in the Republic failed miserably to defend what they had in 2001 and failed to establish a future for the families.

I've got the stories first hand from my 3 first cousins who all served in 2001, how many conscripts disappeared in the night, others feigned 'mental illness', some just refused to come out from under their beds...but its always easier to blame the diaspora for not sending their sons, brothers, fathers and uncles.

By all accounts, the diaspora began sending money, organizing mercaneries and volunteers but the government of the day never exhibited the political will to defend the nation at all costs.

The shiptari did jack shit during that period, the Macedonian people were defeated by political corruption, which continues to this day and NO Macedonian in the diaspora is going to fight for that and until the Macedonians start fighting for their own home, the diaspora wont be helping.

[Vangelovski]

I find the... "How many Diaspora Macedonians came to Macedonia in 2001 to defend the country" question really disappointing and very typical of the greater ills of our people and our nation.

The biggest problem of the Macedonian people is their belief that 'help' will come from 'outside', rather than taking responsibility and accountability for our own actions and controlling our own destiny

Well said. EVERYONE needs to take RESPONSIBILITY for THEMSELVES. What I called personal responsibility in another thread. This call to the diaspora is hypocritical, contradictory and basically a vassal statement to make diaspora Macedonians look like they are 'all talk'.

On the one hand, we are told not to 'interfere' in the internal affairs of Macedonia, and on the other, we are called to lay down our lives for these people. Which is it? It is generally the same people that make the two contradictory statements and that is becuase they are desperately attempting to push their vassal views (foreign domination).

Macedonians in the diaspora are focused on the important struggle of deconstructing the slave mentality and establishing (this has not yet been achieved) a FREE Macedonian republic governed by FREE Macedonian citizens.

The typical vassal on the other hand, will worm around any which way in a pathetic attempt to maintain foregin domination, foreign subsidisation and foreign governance all so that they do not have to take responsibility for themselves. This aversion to personal responsibility (to self, to family and to state) is pathetic.

[indigen]

Well said. EVERYONE needs to take RESPONSIBILITY for THEMSELVES. What I called personal responsibility in another thread. This call to the diaspora is hypocritical, contradictory and basically a vassal statement to make diaspora Macedonians look like they are 'all talk'.

On the one hand, we are told not to 'interfere' in the internal affairs of Macedonia, and on the other, we are called to lay down our lives for these people. Which is it? It is generally the same people that make the two contradictory statements and that is becuase they are desperately attempting to push their vassal views (foreign domination).

Macedonians in the diaspora are focused on the important struggle of deconstructing the slave mentality and establishing (this has not yet been achieved) a FREE Macedonian republic governed by FREE Macedonian citizens.

The typical vassal on the other hand, will worm around any which way in a pathetic attempt to maintain foregin domination, foreign subsidisation and foreign governance all so that they do not have to take responsibility for themselves. This aversion to personal responsibility (to self, to family and to state) is pathetic.

Very good points and observations from both Vangelovski and Phoenix.

Here is something from the news of today on a similar theme and that points to some of the causes of the malady:

Спасовски: Кај народот го убивме чувството на одговорност

Денес човек кој нема заземено политичка страна, а има став, не може да го каже зашто што и да каже е определба на некоја страна, смета доцент професор Огнен Спасовски, од Факултетот по психологија во Скопје.

-Многу е сложена ситуацијата, нема да глумам дека сум паметен. Не сакам да избегнам да кажам, нешто, сложена е ситуацијата пред се поради политизацијата на општеството во секоја пора. Од што и да тргнеме ќе испадне заземање страна, смета доцент Спасовски.

Нагласува, дека за него еднакво одговорни се сите политички субјекти, но како што вели, поразително е што не верувам дека со ваков народ, односно менталитет кој се „негува“ може да се случи повик на војна.

-Народот е инфериорен и го гледа својот интерес му го уништивме чувството за одговорност и не верувам дека без разлика која политичка партија ќе повика на „бунт“ дека народот ќе излезе и ќе одговори, смета Спасовски.

-Немаме информации што точно се случи, дали е упад во новинарството, каде е одговорноста на другите во повикување на влошување на состојбата, да дојде „до нож“ работата. И едните и другите го злоупотребуваат народот. За жал народот нема да реагира и во други ситуации, кога е важно за националниот интерес, ќе си седи дома замотан во ќебе и ќе си го гледа само својот интерес, дециден е Спасовски.

-Нашиот народ има традиција да биде сталожен. Апелирам до сите медиуми да не оставаат впечаток дека работата е дојдена на максимално ниво на интензитет. Има простор и мора да бидеме трезвени, но не значи да не расчистиме што се случуваше. Сите политички субјекти и од позиција и опозиција треба да создадат услови да се расчисти ситуацијата, вели Спасовски.

http://www.kanal5.com.mk/default.aspx?mId=37&egId=13&eventId=67764

A raw google Translate version below:

Spasovski: For the people it kills the sense of responsibility

Today the man who does not taken a political side, and has an attitude, you can not say because whatever you say is the commitment of a party, thinks Professor Professor Ognjen Spasovski, from the School of Psychology in Skopje.

-It is a complex situation, not that I'm acting smart. I do not want to avoid to say something before the situation is complex because of the politicization of society at every pore. From whatever will come off taking sides, according to assistant professor by.

Emphasizes that for him are all equally responsible political entities, but as I said, sad that I do not believe that this nation, that mentality that we "cultivate" can happen call of war.

-The people are inferior and sees their interest to destroy the sense of responsibility and do not believe that no matter which political party called the "rebellion" that people will come and answer, believes by.

-We have no information what happened, whether it is entering into journalism, where is the responsibility of others in reference to the deterioration to come, "the sword" work. Both abuse people. Unfortunately people will not react in other situations where important national interests, they will sit at home wrapped in a blanket and you're only sees his interest is straight by.

-Our nation has a tradition to be calm. I appeal to all media to leave the impression that the work has come to the maximum level of intensity. There is room and need to be sober, but not necessarily not clear what happened. All political parties and the position and the opposition should create conditions to clarify the situation, said by.

[julie]

Bratot, I wasnt aware a state of emergency was declared by the government in 2001. The "war" was labelled as such much later.

Do the Macedonians in the diaspora just let RoM sink in its own shit, walk away and do nothing? Is that what the Macedonians want from its diaspora? The contradictions are atrocious, if we do nothing, we are not seen as patriots, if we try and help, we are told to get lost or have stupid comments thrown at us such as come here and live

As for the once every 10 years comment from that person, my old man, he has been back every 2 years for a minimum of 3 months, born in RoM, so yes, I believe him, an upstanding hardworking elderly volunteer in the community here, for his honesty and I take offence at your comment Bratot. I listen to the verbal diarhea emanating from my own cousins mouths on a frequent basis first hand and if that makes me a liar in your eyes, thank you.

Until RoM wakes up and makes a stand TODAY, the Macedonians wake up to themselves, nothing will change, for a change to be effected, there has to be a shift in their servitude minds and decide what they want, the extinction of the Macedonian name and identity, because that is what is happening, or if they are too lazy and waiting for the Gods to open up and hand them Macedonia, it will not happen.

If RoM does not want the diaspora to be involved, then so be it. Macedonia is finished. That is the reality. I am tired of being attacked from the stupidity and the slander from people that dont give a shit where my Macedonian name is at stake.

za zhalost, koga samite nemozhime da se razbiriame eden so drug, spreme nas, nishto nemozhime da pravime. Ke sedime tuka na strantsvo na strana i ke pulime glupostvi golemi, igrat so nasheto ime, i nemame nikakvo pravo da probame nishto da pravime

Gospod neka ne drzhi na dusha

[Bratot]

Disappointing to hear such silly nonsensical jibes at Diaspora Macedonians from someone like Bratot, who should be more politically enlightened.

RTG, I was not aware that a state of emergency was declared in 2001 and having in place strict curfews and that a mass mobilisation was called for, were you?

Phoenix
I find the... "How many Diaspora Macedonians came to Macedonia in 2001 to defend the country" question really disappointing and very typical of the greater ills of our people and our nation.

Vangelovski

Well said. EVERYONE needs to take RESPONSIBILITY for THEMSELVES. What I called personal responsibility in another thread. This call to the diaspora is hypocritical, contradictory and basically a vassal statement to make diaspora Macedonians look like they are 'all talk'.

On the one hand, we are told not to 'interfere' in the internal affairs of Macedonia, and on the other, we are called to lay down our lives for these people. Which is it? It is generally the same people that make the two contradictory statements and that is becuase they are desperately attempting to push their vassal views (foreign domination).

I trust an explanation regarding the irony in your statement isn't required.

What is there to be explained which is not clear?

How about leaving the double standard and egocentric position when discussing about these matters?


It is NOT me or Makedonin making this issue look Diaspora vs. R. Macedonians.

All I see is constant degradation and labelling of Macedonians from the republic and making them look unworthy, Yugoslav, ramkovists, traitors, vassals, without balls to fight, lazy etc.

Since our Julie is agreeing with such treatment and extended the generalization without having on mind that some of us has only Macedonia for a home and our whole families are there than what do you expect as a reaction?

To give you my life story and get your empathy?

I do critic Macedonians and the state politics, so there isn't problem in the critic, but in the atittude toward Macedonians in Republic.

Julie
I will go front line as a leader in mortal combat, can anyone in Macedonia do the same? Fucking bullshit

And my question (that none of you gave answer on) was provoked by the above comment of Julie.

If Macedonia is in danger, you don't need - "state of emergency" nor inventing alibi for yourself - "we are told not to 'interfere' in the internal affairs", but you will catch the first flight and take arms to defend Macedonia, that should be the true materialization of your big words!

As for the once every 10 years comment from that person, my old man, he has been back every 2 years for a minimum of 3 months, born in RoM, so yes, I believe him, an upstanding hardworking elderly volunteer in the community here, for his honesty and I take offence at your comment Bratot.

Clearly egocentric view, it counts what offence you but in a meantime you can label my family, my parents and myself as lazy brainwashed Macedonians?

That's not going to work with me Julie.

If there is a blame for the national failure of Macedonia and Macedonians, it is our, not mine or yours.

While Macedonians in RoM really need your support, on the other hand they are the best hope you have for preserving our fatherland and identity.

Make up your minds and souls how to achieve full national integration.

[julie]

Bratot, why is it that Macedonians in the Republic are free to critisise the diaspora for 1. Not doing anything or when they do 2. To butt out?
Generalisations, yes, 100 % of RoM are not lazy with a servitude mindset, nor are 100% diaspora giving a shit what happens
My argument is one where you are taking a personal attack, I am freely pissed off with the attitide from some of my relatives that live in RoM and you take it personally. If this is the mindset, then there is no hope. None.
I am angry because we are held accountable in the diaspora for whatever stupid government is voted in , and both in my eyes are corrupt. SDMS has all but signed it all away and VMRO is not the party it says it is.

Would I , yes, but only when I see my relatives stand alongside me . That is not my country of birth to die for, but I would . Not if my relatives are cowering under a bed sucking on a dummy. Am tired of the excuses from everyone.
The diaspora seems to get the abuse from RoM left right and centre, , we are damned if we do try and help, and when we dont (enter DOLLARS from personal blood sweat and tears here, BTW I am doing it very tough here thanks very much) they cry foul.

You only need to look at people's reactions in allowing the diaspora to vote. Thats ok, why the hell would you, give it to all the shiptari instead that dont live in RoM

Bratot, you dont seem to understand, on one hand you say , the diaspora do nothing, on the other hand you say , help.
I refuse to handout money for financial support anymore, and have told you I have relatives that are too lazy too work and you jump down my throat. I am not talking about your family, that is your role there to do what you will.

How can Macedonians collectively unite when the diaspora is constantly belittled and told to basically stop and pander the whimsical cries from RoM??? I am fucked if I am handing over money and I know how hard it is to work with ongoing medical treatment to give money to my able bodied cousins that are healthy.

Bratot, do you suggest the diaspora do nothing then? Say nothing? What will it take to give them a good kick up the butt and tell everyone what is at stake here? My fear its all done and dusted.
Lets close up shop shall we, lay down for our enemies and let them walk all over us. Lets do that. Pat UMD and MPO and SDMS and VMRO on the back for a job well done, tell the people to open their doors to the shiptari and let them just have it all. Is that it??
I am tired of the apathy, I am not saying everyone is like that there, the examples I am providing from some of my relatives from my dad's side of the family disgust me. Then you say I am labelling your family? You are taking it personally

Is there anyone left in this fucked up world that can see what is happening??? Lets pander to them, wipe their dribbly noses clean, send them money and pat them all on the back and congratulate them for doing nothing. nothing to stop the extinction of my Macedonian name.
Congratulations and a round of applause RoM, what wonderful patriots we have .

[julie]

[B]While Macedonians in RoM really need your support, on the other hand they are the best hope you have for preserving our fatherland and identity.
Make up your minds and souls how to achieve full national integration.[/QUOTE]
[/B]



HOW, 2 way street here.

[Bratot]

Bratot, why is it that Macedonians in the Republic are free to critisise the diaspora for 1. Not doing anything or when they do 2. To butt out?
Generalisations, yes, 100 % of RoM are not lazy with a servitude mindset, nor are 100% diaspora giving a shit what happens
My argument is one where you are taking a personal attack, I am freely pissed off with the attitide from some of my relatives that live in RoM and you take it personally. If this is the mindset, then there is no hope. None.
I am angry because we are held accountable in the diaspora for whatever stupid government is voted in , and both in my eyes are corrupt. SDMS has all but signed it all away and VMRO is not the party it says it is.

Stop making generalizations.

Do you really think that RoM is the only place where Macedonians face those problems?

There are diaspora organisations that do nothing, that support negative solutions for Macedonia, there are many serbomans, grkomans, bugaromans, yugophiles, there are also dumb, lazy or totally assimilated Macedonians who simply don't care for their origin...

Should I give up from all of Diaspora Macedonians because of these negative examples?

Do I have the right to generalize about you?

Would I , yes, but only when I see my relatives stand alongside me . That is not my country of birth to die for, but I would . Not if my relatives are cowering under a bed sucking on a dummy. Am tired of the excuses from everyone.
The diaspora seems to get the abuse from RoM left right and centre, , we are damned if we do try and help, and when we dont (enter DOLLARS from personal blood sweat and tears here, BTW I am doing it very tough here thanks very much) they cry foul.

You only need to look at people's reactions in allowing the diaspora to vote. Thats ok, why the hell would you, give it to all the shiptari instead that dont live in RoM

Bratot, you dont seem to understand, on one hand you say , the diaspora do nothing, on the other hand you say , help.
I refuse to handout money for financial support anymore, and have told you I have relatives that are too lazy too work and you jump down my throat. I am not talking about your family, that is your role there to do what you will.

How can Macedonians collectively unite when the diaspora is constantly belittled and told to basically stop and pander the whimsical cries from RoM??? I am fucked if I am handing over money and I know how hard it is to work with ongoing medical treatment to give money to my able bodied cousins that are healthy.

Bratot, do you suggest the diaspora do nothing then? Say nothing?

I was clear on what I suggested Julie, don't play words and minds with me.

It's about some respect and a proper approach, I hardly imagine you grew up your sons by calling names on them if they did something wrong, so if you want to have construtive dialogue and to produce national integrity you will have to change your attitude or simply forget about sharing some origin and give it a rest.

[Mastika]

Bratot, you are right in saying that generalisations should be avoided when possible as they can be inaccurate, but how do you suggest that posters should comment on issues regarding people living in Macedonia/Diaspora?, if not to use generalisations occasionally.

[Daniel the Great]

I will not generalize and say every Macedonian in the republic think of us Macedonians in the diaspora as sellouts or not worthy to comment on Macedonian issues like the name dispute, and not worthy to make suggestions of outcomes to particular Macedonian issues, but, there are Macedonians in the republic that are like that and that see us in the diaspora as nothing but foreigners.

Unity is needed among Macedonians all over the world, not just in the republic. We all are entitled to an opinion regarding Macedonian issues, we are all of the same origin, Macedonia.

[Bratot]

Mastika,

when one calls for a revolution and fight, it is expected from him to participate in it.

To be just a commentator on duty is the easiest thing.

It is important how to communicate the message to the people, that was the reason why sometimes people chose to follow the better orator instead of the better person(leader).

Lets take it for granted that all of us here on MTO are great persons and true patriots, what we need is a proper set of communication skills in order to work it through with our idealogy.

If not, Meto Koloski for ex. will be misleading the Macedonians that UMD is trully representative organisation for whole Diaspora Macedonians.

[George S.]

frank macedonia was bullied into changing it's flag with the 16 ray sunto the 8 ray sun.As soon as the macedonians done that what did greece do it registered the symbol as a national symbol.
Look at the way it was forced on the macedonians & we reluctantly did it & accepted the new 8 rayed symbol (ventilator).Why should we be forced to change anything macedonian aren't we deserving enough?Now it could be the name next.

[Risto the Great]

If Macedonia is in danger, you don't need - "state of emergency" nor inventing alibi for yourself - "we are told not to 'interfere' in the internal affairs", but you will catch the first flight and take arms to defend Macedonia, that should be the true materialization of your big words!

Bratot, quite frankly that is utter rubbish.
You never responded to my point:

How many Macedonians from Macedonia defended Macedonia in 2001?

If the Macedonians in Macedonia weren't caring or even aware about anything in Macedonia, perhaps we in the Diaspora are on a higher moral standing.

To be honest, I resent the Macedonian Governments that failed Macedonians. I also resent the Macedonian people for selling out my ancestry after the referendum failed.

[Bratot]

Bratot, quite frankly that is utter rubbish.
You never responded to my point:

How many Macedonians from Macedonia defended Macedonia in 2001?

If the Macedonians in Macedonia weren't caring or even aware about anything in Macedonia, perhaps we in the Diaspora are on a higher moral standing.

To be honest, I resent the Macedonian Governments that failed Macedonians. I also resent the Macedonian people for selling out my ancestry after the referendum failed.

Risto,

quite frankly, you will not leave Australia and come to Macedonia to fight, but you expect others to do it.

Yet you think of making a point with skipping my question by making another question insinuating more degradation for Macedonians of RoM.

Let me ask, who do you think Macedonian army and police forces consist of?

Also the number speculations are available on the internet if that will serve your point.