Ventilator

[Risto the Great]

Yet the state have signed something.

They signed under duress (as well as stupidity), it is not enforceable.

[Vangelovski]

I agree on that and I use it when ever I want to.

Yet the state have signed something. I don't know who will force the restrictions, but I can see the greeks starting a embargo or even war cause of it.

That is all cause they have signed something, and this is the very excuse for such actions that the greeks will use.

Do you understand what sovereign means?

What hard evidence do you have the Greece could or would enforce an embargo or start a war?

[makedonin]

Do you understand what sovereign means?

Get mature. Your rampage around won't help anyone especially not the Macedonian cause.

Sovereign does not mean that there are no rules to follow! Rules are made by the powerful under threats and force. They were forced by the powers to sign some papers that obligate them to do something.

They may aswell decide not to follow what they have agreed and signed.
In that case noone can really tell what will happen.

Nothing might happen, or it may give others the needed trigger to pull their agendas even harder and damage the Republic.

It is a two edged sword.

So before jumping around and throwing words ligh sovereignity etc. let me only remind you that in order to protect your souveregnity you need to be powerful, nothing is granted in reality.
The question is if the R. of Macedonia is powerful enough to do that? Do we have friedns that will help us? Who are they, are they powerful etc?

Such questions are to be considered. All you do is throw some words around and observe them in isolation. That is good for Idealism, but not for hard reality.

To make such decision on personal level is easy. It gets harder with the growing complexity.

I have advice for you. Since you are so good in rethoric, go in the Reupublic, live there, get involved in politics, get elected as president or premier and do what you are now preaching.

I will be glad to follow. Or are you just big talk and nothing behind it?

What hard evidence do you have the Greece could or would enforce an embargo or start a war?

I don't have anything except for what have already happened. They did it once.

Do you thing that they are not stupid enough to do it twice?

Your faith in Greek mindset is astonishing.

I can even tell that they are praying for such thing which will give them space to let go of their current frustration.

Can you prove the oposite? I beg you do it, I would be most happy about it and comforted.

[indigen]

They signed under duress (as well as stupidity), it is not enforceable.

I doubt that there was ANY DURESS for SDSM but rather it was their PLAN and COMMITMENT to their "IC" backers for turning a blind eye to (and ENDOREMENT of) all the electoral FRAUD in the RIGGED 1994 elections. What was the benefit for SDSM, one might ask? I would answer that one should imagine a morally and politically corrupt regime having total political control of a state in the early stages of economic transition from a socialist economy to a capitalist one, where privatisation of all the state and commonly owned assets is about to go full-throttle mode.



Monument to Crvenkovski's (corruption) achievments - Oktopod!

19.10.94

Do
Pretsedatelot na Sobranieto na Republika Makedonija

Поради масовното и драстично кршење на изборната постапка и директната инволвиараност на државата во многубројните извршени повреди на законите и процедурата, кои што се образложени во приговорите на кандидатите за пратеници и во приговорите на Демократската партија и ВМРО-ДПМНЕ.

БАРАМЕ


1. Поништување на Изборите `94;
2. Обезбедување на сите потребни услови за одржување на законски и фер избори;
3. Оставка на Владата и формирање на чиновничка Влада, која ќе спроведе регуларни избори;
4. Оставка на Државната изборна комисија;
5. Одвојување на претседателските од парламентарните избори.

Доколку овие барања не бидат исполнети до 22 Октомври (сабота), до 19 часот, не гледаме причина за наше учество на вториот круг на Изборите `94.

ВМРО – Демократска партија за
македонско национално единство

Претседател
Љупчо Георгиевски


Демократска партија (ДА)

Претседател
Петар Гошев


факсимил копија на оргиналниот документ во формат на слика (image file) тука


Za Potsetuvanje - Razno

[Vangelovski]

So Makedonin,

Do you know what sovereign means or not? I didn't ask you for your 101 reasons to capitulate.

YOU claimed that they would either enforce an embargo or start a war. The onus is on YOU to substantiate YOUR claims. These claims, by the way, have been dealt with thoroughly when Buktop floated them on a number of occasions.

[makedonin]

So Makedonin,

Do you know what sovereign means or not?

Yes I know what soverign means. And your point?

I didn't ask you for your 101 reasons to capitulate.

You call it capitulate, I call it reasoning and facing reality!

Your point!!!!

YOU claimed that they would either enforce an embargo or start a war. The onus is on YOU to substantiate YOUR claims. These claims, by the way, have been dealt with thoroughly when Buktop floated them on a number of occasions.

I told you. I don't have any plans or reports or anything like that to show you that it can happen.

AND YET they did it once before. What is there to be proven!?
Or have you missed the Embargo enjoying your life in security in some remote corner of Ausi land?

I consider them stupid enough to do it again! Should I not do that? Should I turn the blind eye so that you feel better and feel that you have made a point?

Get mature. Do something. Go to R. of Macedonia, live there, get involved in politics, get elected for president or premier and show me how you protect the sovereignity of R. of Macedonia.

Spiting on others is only a childish game. Give an example how it is done.

Teach me a lesson with practical stuff.

I don't need your rethoric and wonnabe politics concerning R. of Macedonia when you are not even affected by possible threats like war or embargo.

So forget it. I ain't gonna waste my time with simpletone like you!

[Vangelovski]

Yes I know what soverign means. And your point?

And...will you provide your understanding of the concept of sovereignty?

I told you. I don't have any plans or reports or anything like that to show you that it can happen.

So you're just parroting unsubstantiated scaremongering propaganda and calling it "reasoning" and "reality"? Did you ever consider informing your "reasoning" and "reality" with actual evidence?

What you're basically saying is that we should keep the ventilator because you have a gut feeling that something bad might happen if we don't. And you're telling me to "get mature".

[makedonin]

Vangelovski, you know what?

What you're basically saying is that we should keep the ventilator because you have a gut feeling that something bad might happen if we don't. And you're telling me to "get mature".

What I am saying is that you should go to live in Macedonia get elected as president and show me how much guts you have to do it! How is that?

Your virtual courage won't impress anyone, at least not me!

As long as you babble with out being in danger to be affected by certain circumstances as war or embargo, your words are empty.

How is that? Is that clear enough for you? You ain't gonna be mature as long as you are in safety somewhere remote unaffected from the possible coming events.

I said my part it is enough for me.
Noone has to agree or accept it, and you are the last one who is expected such thing to do. I certainly won't go into circles to elaborate it to a simpletone like you!

Shut your mouth and don't address me anymore. You have said you won't do it, and you have shown no integrity in holding your word.

Buzz off.

[Vangelovski]

Shut your mouth and don't address me anymore. You have said you won't do it, and you have shown no integrity in holding your word.

Buzz off.

I never made such a promise.

[makedonin]

I never made such a promise.

Maybe not literal and word for word. But surelly it was the meaning.

Buzz off, get your self a life, a real one and stop playing some virtual cowboy as if someone gives a damn about it!

I said what I said, take it or leave it, I don't really care! Just stop bothering!

[indigen]

Yet the state have signed something. I don't know who will force the restrictions, but I can see the greeks starting a embargo or even war cause of it.

That is all cause they have signed something, and this is the very excuse for such actions that the greeks will use.

A lot of scaremongering and an excuse for accepting and implementing in full every "signed" capitulation to date.

Sooner or later we get to see where various MTO posters stand ideologically vis-a-vis the Macedonian Cause - the core Macedonian national interests.

[indigen]

You call it capitulate, I call it reasoning and facing reality!

What exactly are you doing here on MTO then?

AND YET they did it once before. What is there to be proven!?
Or have you missed the Embargo enjoying your life in security in some remote corner of Ausi land?

Yes, there was an embargo in 1992 and the Mk Government (including SDSM, or whatever they were called then), voted for the new Macedonian Flag with the 16-ray Kutlesh (Macedonian) Sun symbol on it. Why do you think did they do that?

Get mature. Do something. Go to R. of Macedonia, live there, get involved in politics, get elected for president or premier and show me how you protect the sovereignty of R. of Macedonia.

Now we see a regurgitation of the old political line aimed at Diaspora Macedonians that they should not comment or "interfere" in the "internal" affairs of those that live in the republic even if their (mis)deeds negatively impact on the lives of every Macedonian living anywhere in the world and also of future generations to come. It also negates and denigrates all the dead and fallen for Macedonia of past generations.

As it is, there are and were plenty of Macedonians inside the republic who opposed the treasonous capitulation deals when they occurred, and more so in 1993 and 1995. VMRO-DPMNE and the Democratic Party (led by Petar Goshev) in 1995 were boycotting the parliament because of fraud and rigged elections in 1994 and they and their supporters certainly opposed the 1995 "Interim Accord" and called it a betrayal and a capitulation.

I don't need your rhetoric and wannabe politics concerning R. of Macedonia when you are not even affected by possible threats like war or embargo.

Actually, IMO, we should not allow this line of argument on MTO because it is flawed and goes against the very purpose of its existence.

Secondly, can you speak for ALL Macedonians in the republic and who gave you that authority? Also, do you think there are Macedonians in Macedonia (Republic of) who would be (or are) happy that we in the DIASPORA are able and willing to take a stronger stand on various issues affecting Macedonian national sovereignty?

М-р Петар Гошев, политичар
“Нема ништо потрајно од привременото!"
22 Април 1994 – ДЕЛО

[…]

Прво, никој немаше право во вонуставна постапка, макар и привремено да го менува името на нашата држава. Тоа отвори простор за можен опасен развој на настаните во врска со историскиот идентите на македонскиот народ. Предупредувањата дека тоа нема да биде само за два месеци веќе се остварија.

Според сегашниот тек на посредуваните преговори, може на наш пример да се оствари изреката: “нема ништо потрајно од привременото". Имено, веќе во оптек предлогот прашањето во врска со името да биде решавано во некоја трета фаза – можеби по дваесет години, откако и другите две барања од страна на Грците ќе бидат исплонети.

Тврдењето дека тоа што се направило било без алтернатива, нема доволно аргументација. Пред приемот во Обединетите нации под тоа смешно име се зголемуваше бројот на подржувачите на праведното барање на Република Македонија. Се множеа бројни статии во угледните светски списанија и весници, а некои земји го започнаа и признавањето под нејзиното [праведно] име. Моето гледиште е дека на тоа требаше да се истрае. Дали тоа ќе го дадеше спротивниот презултат, односно брз прием во Обединиетите нации под [праведното] име, не би се осмелил со сигурност да тврдам, бидејќи би се свел на “безалтернативците" само со спротивната теза. Но, едно е јасно. Борбата да се сочува идентитиетот на македонскиот народ, на македонската држава преку одбраната на историската врска на македонскиот народ и територијата на која живеат со векови е без алтернатива. Колку и да трае.

Затоа тоа, пак, дека било каквиот прием во ООН го гарантира интегритиетот на државата и одбегнувањето на војната, говори примерот на Босна и Херцеговина, и не само тој.

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showpost.php?p=72388&postcount=75

[Lion of Macedon]

Kutlesh sun is macedonian and for the macedonians, 4000 years strong! End of story!

The japanese fan flag is the flag of sellout ex-communist traiting politicians that actually enjoy that the name of their own country has a "yugoslav" prefix it in! They are all sick in the head! The ventilator represents the former yugoslav communist sellout republic of macedonia! Case closed!

[makedonin]

What exactly are you doing here on MTO then?

Interesting question.

Well first of all, I never thought and felt the need to bow to the pretenders Gods and demi Gods of the Macedonians such as you or the likes of you. I never agreed upon such thing when I joined the forum and certainly won't agree on such thing.

Second of all. When I joined the Macedonian Truth Org. I was impressed by the integrity of the founders of this forum. I felt that I want to contribute at least a small part to the Macedonian truth that I felt inside of myself.

I felt that this platform is serving to discover the truth and reality about the Macedonian existence in it's all different facets with out fear what might come out of it. I found a constructive dialog and rich inquiring spirit that I admired. It was not subscription to a Dogma and everyones constructive opinion was welcomed.

I find it sad that now there are few of it's members, such as you, that think that they are above all, and proclaimed them selfs for the police of the truth and bash people for having different perspective of what they are trying to preach. They think that they know it all and have the right to play the teachers of the others.

Having said that, let me state this:

I will be more than happy to return the old flag. I also see many flows in the organizations such as the UMD and the Government structures that have been pointed out. That mile I walked gladly. Constructive inquiry is good.

Than somehow things have changed. Attacking people and senseless critique took their place with out any concern for reality circumstances and with out any basic understanding of what is really going on in R. of Macedonia. State symbol, no matter if they were forced upon us or not, have been slandered and people have been labeled traitros just for showing respect to the state they come from and belong to.

Recently some artificial divisions have been introduced, such as "Yugos" labeling etc.

Well let me tell you this even if I run in danger of being bashed or even banned.

While those "Yugos" created the State with which you alledgedly so strongly indentify, you were sitting somewhere remotely in security with great perspectives for your family and your children.

Interestingly enough, you despise this "Yugos" for not complying to you Ideological Standars, still this "Yugos" are the only one from the Macedonians to succeed to create a Macedonian State, while you haven't done much for it, if anything.

This very same "Yugos" haven't changed the name of their State even though the political and international preasure is not to underestimate.
And you and the likes of you criticize them for something that you neither had to endure nor endure in the moment. Most probably you are not even a citizen of the State and yet you think that your Identity is in danger because of anything.

Well let me tell you something. The Macedonian Identity prevailed even though there was no Macedonian State. It prevailed during the hardest hostile propaganda. So I am confident that it will prevail also all this turmoil, with out your "help". That is my confidence.

You play concerned but aren't even living in the State, not to mention that you are not involved in the State building and certainly haven't proposed anything to better the situation.
You are satisfied with your western comfort away from any effect that might take place if certain steps are taken, and have the gut to tell those "Yugos" they have no integrity!

Those "Yugos" are criticized for wanting the same standard, same security and same perspective as you have. They are criticized for seeing them in the EU or NATO.
I don't think that those views are founded, yet I have never doubted that anyone will sell out the name of the country for join into this Organizations, and yet you bash them in your irrationalism for seeking the same for which reason your parents and grandparents have left their homeland. If they were the great patriots, why didn't they come back or stay? Those "Yugos" had to endure similar hardships as any Macedoinan from the other parts and still succeeded in building a Macedonian State.

If you were really concerned with the state of affairs, you would soon enough realize that your approach of attacking and ciriticizing does not really brings the fruits you was hoping.

You would have realized that your tactics are not the right one.


I don't say that the leaders are the best ones, I don't say that they have to learn more and have to be better in conducting the Macedonian affairs.

No that is not what I say, but if you really were worth for something, if you really were that for what you pose here, than you would go and live in the Republic and bring prosper to it. You pose like leader, and still don't have the guts to go in to the Republic and take acctual leadership.

If you realy were concerned, you would realized that you can't preach about Patriotism when those to whom you preach are with empty stomachs but yours if full.

You would soon enough realize that the real tactics woud be finding the way how to fill their belly and give them perspective, security and all that what you enjoy for your self.

If you are able to do that, than they will follow you and they will become what you acctually want them to be.

Than they will be in position to be soverign and conduct their own affairs under your "wise guidance" and hold their position when others will attack them for that what they stand for. They won't be weak as they are now.

So you pose as some sort of a teacher but don't have the real stuff to lead people.

With your recless attacks and tactics you don't accomplish anything, you even bring a discord between the people.



The Macedonian Truth Organization that I gladly joined did not stand for what you represent. At least I thought that this was the case.
I find it disapointing that things have changed.

I will be gladly proved wrong.

[julie]

makedonin, our narod in RoM...do they see the EU and NATO as an economic advantage? It is sad if that is the case. Beautiful Macedonia, why does the country not invest its dollars in building up the infrastructure for tourism? The West will come , and leave their dollars there. The money that RoM has invested in name negotiations, would have been more wisely spent in investing in tourism, encouraging private investors from the diaspora, to help with unemployment.
The diaspora does not want to see what is left of Macedonia extinguished. Because as sure as day turns into night, the roller coaster is there.
Why is it that RoM hates its diaspora so much? Its the diaspora that is fighting for the preservation of Macedonia, you say people are hungry, they are being brainwashed by bullshit political parties.
The diaspora sends money (money does not fall from the sky here either, and the majority of us were born outside of Macedonia. Dont blame us for hanging onto our identity, we dont want it lost.
My family, well, come back to what???? Still persecuted from the aegean, as most that were evicted and forced out of their homes. The very diaspora that fights for the basic human rights for RoM, do not want to see RoM go down. How can I go back there to the Aegean, I dont know Greek. That is insulting m=to me, and I will be persecuted. We did not leave in droves, the ones that got away were forced out of their homeland, so it is a little insulting to say, come back home. There is no home for the Egejtsi batko.
As for RoM, the old man recently came back from visiting his family, leaving Australian dollars with them. They are lazy. They do not want to work, they expect everything handed to them on a silver platter and the mentality from my cousins on dads side is disgusting. Brainwashed. EU/NATO they will save us. ????????? Sure, and did you know that we have flying green pigs in the sky too?
Dont knock the diaspora for trying to help. That is wrong. We are Macedonians too batko