Ventilator

[Prolet]

The "Ramkoven Dogvor" precludes any changes without Gheg approval and I leave it to your deductive capacity to know what needs to be done first and how realistic that is in the current state of affairs in RoM.

I thought it was in the name of human rights?? Since Macedonia is a multi ethnic country its got other ethnic groups there not just Albanians, the Albanians cant choose in the name of all the other Ethnic Communities in Macedonia.

[julie]

The "Ramkoven Dogvor" precludes any changes without Gheg approval and I leave it to your deductive capacity to know what needs to be done first and how realistic that is in the current state of affairs in RoM.

The Macedonian nation needs to have its consciousness raised to a level where it will be prepared to fight a war and aim to win it because the Ghegs will not accept less than what they have now and will continue to ask for more concessions and threaten war in order to get them. If Macedonians continue to submit to political pressures and threats of war, there will soon be nothing left to concede.

I agree with you Indigen and fear it also.
RoM appears to have apathy - the AMHRC are writing protest letters and RoM does nothing
it appears the diaspora is up in arms over what is going on and we are the ones that appear to be fighting a lost cause and a losing battle
How do we incite some passion in the people in RoM

What are we to do here in the diaspora?
I am feeling more and more helpless and it upsets me to see the disintegration of RoM, like you said soon we will have nothing....except a bunch of people in the diaspora fighting for their identity.

Bloody hell, I cant beleive I live in another country and have more passion and drive than the drones in RoM and am really pissed at the politicians, its every man and dog for himself over there

[indigen]

...the Albanians cant choose in the name of all the other Ethnic Communities in Macedonia.

Framework Agreement 13.08.2001

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1728&page=2

Read it and see what it entails and do the sums.

You will need 1/2 of the MPs who are not of the majority community to pass certain legislation that is designated as affecting them and the Shiptars have 25 or 27 out of 30 or so.

[indigen]

I agree with you Indigen and fear it also.
RoM appears to have apathy - the AMHRC are writing protest letters and RoM does nothing
it appears the diaspora is up in arms over what is going on and we are the ones that appear to be fighting a lost cause and a losing battle
How do we incite some passion in the people in RoM

What are we to do here in the diaspora?
I am feeling more and more helpless and it upsets me to see the disintegration of RoM, like you said soon we will have nothing....except a bunch of people in the diaspora fighting for their identity.

Bloody hell, I cant beleive I live in another country and have more passion and drive than the drones in RoM and am really pissed at the politicians, its every man and dog for himself over there

It is a sad and depressing situation, Julie!

There is MUCH we can do but we need unity, ideology, organisation and money and resources. The ideological and political fight MUST be taken inside RoM ASAP. An internet portal that is well organised and resourced could be a great start, IME.

[julie]

Ok, how do we all do this, we have to do something before the little bit of Macedonia that is left is no more

I have always said we need unity and cohesiveness, together and united for the Macedonian cause

[Mastika]

What if the 'name dispute' is not resolved in our favour?

Thats a question everyone seems to have on the back of their mind.

Prolet, this isn't a question that I have on the back of my mind. I cannot see Macedonia not having the dispute resolved in our favour, maybe this is just ignorant confidence in our cause but there is no need for people to even think that we may lose the dispute and that our name will be changed. Similarly there is no reason for people to be so anti-referendum, a referendum will reflect the will of the citizens of Macedonia.

Lets face it the Greek position has been running out steam over the past 20 years. The Greeks had the upper hand throughout the early/mid nineties, however people have realised the stupidity of the Greek claims and public opinion has shifted against them, this is most visible by the increase of nations recognising the "RoM". Frankly the rest of the world is over this petty dispute, what they do not want is another Kosovo emerging in N.W. Macedonia and I highly doubt that the West will allow the name dispute to destabilise the country so much. Even Greek public opinion has shifted, Macedonia needs to keep going on the same path as they have been and when the two sides eventually reconcile hopefully there will be some prosperity in the future. What this whole fiasco has done is wasted the time and money of the citizens of both Greece and Macedonia.

[Prolet]

Mastika, What do you see in a referendum? Its going to cost millions of euros for a result that everybody will know anyway, so we reject Northern Macedonia then what happens next?? Nemetz proposes Upper Macedonia, we hold another referendum and we reject it? If this keeps going we'll go banrupt before Greece does.

[julie]

Masrika, you serious? A referendum achieves what?
Or is the politician there playing a game?

For farks sake they are all playing games with our identity.
Macedonia is the pawn in a chess game

lose/lsoe situation , referendum is the nail in the coffin

rigged results in favor of shiptarite, and before you can say bob is your uncle it becomes Greater Albania
Macedonia? oh, that country that wa chopped to bits and was too dumb assed to save the little piece of RoM left behind

Bloody hell woould you please all wake up, can tyou guys see what is happening right under your noses? and I know I am not being paranoid

Why is it that women on this forum are the ones with balls and smarts!!!

[aleksandrov]

..How do we get the people in Macedonia to start thinking this way?

A good start would be to lead by example, which most people on this thread don't seem to be inclined to do at present.

How would it be applied in practical terms, what laws, demands and/or commands would they need to disobey, so the message gets the government's serious attention? ...

Let's start with EVERYTHING emanating from the Interim Accord and Framework Agreement.

[Jankovska]

Why is it that women on this forum are the ones with balls and smarts!!!

Haha coz we are

Referendum is a suicide for any gov

[Vangelovski]

a good start would be to lead by example, which most people on this thread don't seem to be inclined to do at present.



Let's start with everything emanating from the interim accord and framework agreement.

Agreed!!!!

[Soldier of Macedon]

A good start would be to lead by example, which most people on this thread don't seem to be inclined to do at present.

If the Macedonians on this thread, most of whom are from Diaspora, lead by example and unify on key common positions, how do we maximise the potential of such an occurrence so that inspires the Macedonians in RoM to think similarly and in terms of civil disobediences?

Let's start with EVERYTHING emanating from the Interim Accord and Framework Agreement.

Can you be a little more specific and cite some practical examples? What would change on an everyday basis for the average Macedonian?

[aleksandrov]

People who think that we can rely on professional politicians to resolve this problem in the interest of freedom and sovereignty of the Macedonian people are out of touch with political reality. The political culture and system in Macedonia are tailored so that only those who are obedient to foreign hegemonic dictates and Albanian separatist demands can come to official power and stay in official power. Ljupco Georgievski recognized this as far back as 1995. He publicly recognized that he had to choose either foregoing the prospects of electoral victory or selling out. There is one thing that puts Georgievski above other modern Macedonian leaders and that is his demonstrated capacity to call his own capitulation what it is, as he did upon signing the Ohrid Framework Agreement.

Only resistance by ordinary Macedonians, whose careers don't depend on the blessing of foreign puppet-masters and DUI or DPA, can achieve real freedom and sovereignty.

Indigen may well turn out to have been right in suggesting that only armed conflict can help us gain freedom and sovereignty (and most nations have in fact won their freedom and sovereignty by war), but given the extreme sacrifices that such a course requires, we should try civil disobedience first. After all, if we don't have the collective courage and perseverance required for a successful civil disobedience campaign, we certainly won't have the collective courage and perseverance required for winning a war and successfully implementing the changes the war was intended for.

"Liberty has never come from the government. Liberty has always come from the subjects of it. The history of liberty is a history of resistance." ~ Woodrow Wilson

[aleksandrov]

...Can you be a little more specific and cite some practical examples?

This whole thread has been about one practical example, and that is refusing to use or 'respect' a flag imposed by way of the Interim Accord. if we can't achieve that much, what's the point of looking for other practical examples?

Two other practical examples that immediately spring to mind:

1. Don't appear anywhere and don't respond when being addressed under the name FYROM, whether it be in sporting, cultural, scientific or any other forums.

2. Don't submit to the authority of any police officer, soldier, judge or public servant who received his position as a result of a deal with DUI or DPA, through the provisions of the Framework Agreement.

I could suggest many other specific measures, but starting with the simplest ones first and focusing on them until they are proving successful is more pragmatic, in my view.

[Prolet]

Indigen may well turn out to have been right in suggesting that only armed conflict can help us gain freedom and sovereignty (and most nations have in fact won their freedom and sovereignty by war), but given the extreme sacrifices that such a course requires, we should try civil disobedience first.

There was an armed conflict today in Skopska Crna Gora, DUI and DPA have alot of explaining to do thats for sure.