Ventilator

[Bill77]

nor were they alive to choose which flag they would be buried with.

This is only a small section of your entire post, but it stood out for me.

Check the patches these soldiers or police were wearing on there sleaves. I am sure the murdered soldiers would have been wearing them aswell when they were alive.

[aleksandrov]

It is My Macedonian freedom of choice weither I will use the 16 rayed sun flag or the current 8 rayed sun flag or both or every single flag related to Macedonia and Macedonians.

Yes, you are indeed free to choose to be whatever your masters have decided to let you be, but you have no intelligent basis for accusing those who don't respect your sense of 'choice' of disrespecting Macedonia.

"... zapomni deka pred onie na koi im ja dolzhish mozhnosta da go napishesh svoeto ime chovek, treba da stoish bez kapa i koga gi pcuesh.” Goce Delchev

[aleksandrov]

...Alexandrov said;


Poor analogy actually. Not only do I defend the Macedonians in Aegean & Pirin with passion but I have intentionally created these topics;

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2215

and http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...ead.php?t=2527...

I don't doubt that you "intentionally" created those topics, but I still say that justifying 'respect' for a flag of oppression on the basis that the majority of citizens of the Republic of Macedonia aren't seen protesting against it is logically analogous to denying the fact that Macedonians under Bulgarian and Greek rule are oppressed on the grounds that very small numbers of them can be seen asserting their Macedonian ethnic identity and objecting to the oppression.

Your provision of the above links as evidence that Indigen's analogy was poor is no more convincing than using what you preach that others should do in their back yard as evidence of what you practice in your own.

[Jankovska]

Yes, you are indeed free to choose to be whatever your masters have decided to let you be, but you have no intelligent basis for accusing those who don't respect your sense of 'choice' of disrespecting Macedonia.

"... zapomni deka pred onie na koi im ja dolzhish mozhnosta da go napishesh svoeto ime chovek, treba da stoish bez kapa i koga gi pcuesh.” Goce Delchev

Of course you are disrepecting. No one calls your preference terrible names like ventilator so I don't understand why you think you can do the same? For example as I said i prefer the new flag, so stop offending my flag. I consider myself to be a good faithful Macedonian that cares for the country and people and I love the flag. you should have a bit respect towards the ones like me if you want me to have respect for you. If not, I will just see you as a little cry baby who likes to have a bitch once in a while.

[aleksandrov]

Of course you are disrepecting. No one calls your preference terrible names like ventilator so I don't understand why you think you can do the same? For example as I said i prefer the new flag, so stop offending my flag. I consider myself to be a good faithful Macedonian that cares for the country and people and I love the flag. you should have a bit respect towards the ones like me if you want me to have respect for you. ...

I can have general respect for somebody as a human being, without having respect for each of his/her judgments. Is that an inconceivable concept?

I consider the acceptance of the imposed flag to amount to desecration of the flag it illegitimately replaced i.e. of the only flag that has ever been a legitimate flag of a sovereign Repubic of Macedonia. I never have and hopefully never will respect such desecration of the only legitimate flag of the sovereign Republic of Macedonia.

And I don't see what's so terrible about the word 'ventilator'. I have nothing against ventilatori. They serve a good purpose and do not offend me. But I have strong objections to accepting a flag that was offensively imposed on my people by their oppressors, in the service of oppression, and I find it extremely unfortunate that so many of my people effectively submit to the oppressive wishes of their oppressors, yet try to convince themselves that they are doing something worthy of respect.

[Jankovska]

I can have general respect for somebody as a human being, without having respect for each of his/her judgments. Is that an inconceivable concept?

I consider the acceptance of the imposed flag to amount to desecration of the flag it illegitimately replaced i.e. of the only flag that has ever been a legitimate flag of a sovereign Repubic of Macedonia. I never have and hopefully never will respect such desecration of the only legitimate flag of the sovereign Republic of Macedonia.

And I don't see what's so terrible about the word 'ventilator'. I have nothing against ventilatori. They serve a good purpose and do not offend me. But I have strong objections to accepting a flag that was offensively imposed on my people by their oppressors, in the service of oppression, and I find it extremely unfortunate that so many of my people effectively submit to the oppressive wishes of their oppressors, yet try to convince themselves that they are doing something worthy of respect.

You sound Greek to me.

I can see why you think ventilatori serve a good purpose, you are very much like one. Likes to blow some dust around, kick up a big fuss about something but in the end let the AC (or real people fight the fights).

[Bratot]

Yes, you are indeed free to choose to be whatever your masters have decided to let you be, but you have no intelligent basis for accusing those who don't respect your sense of 'choice' of disrespecting Macedonia.

"... zapomni deka pred onie na koi im ja dolzhish mozhnosta da go napishesh svoeto ime chovek, treba da stoish bez kapa i koga gi pcuesh.” Goce Delchev

“Patriotism varies, from a noble devotion to a moral lunacy” - W. R. Inge

[Silver]

IME, TM seems to have graduated from the same "Buktop and Koloski School of Geopolitics" as the rest of the UMD CREW. Their logic as applied to Macedonian issues in RoM starts to resemble Greek and Bulgar propaganda respectively applied to Macedonians under their rule/occupation, e.g. Greeks use low vote numbers for Vinozhito or lack of mass protests to deny existence of a Macedonian indigenous minority and Bulgar authorities use their census data, amongst other rationale, to do the same. All the obstacles affecting Macedonians are conveniently ignored and the oppressive policies justified, as TM and other UMDOvci do in regards to FA, IA and imposed symbols.

This is something that needed to be said. You keep hearing stupid questions about the new flag over and over like “well why haven't they done something about it and why have they accepted it?” This is exactly what 'Greeks' like to ask and say within Euro circles to gain any advantage and to enhance their web of lies over the real Macedonians. Rather than having simply accepted the changes to the flag etc, as some would have us think Macedonians living in the Republic at the time in reality accepted that they are still an oppressed people, albeit less than previously, from the 4 wolves around them, the traitors who live with them inside the Republic, and those in the diaspora. Not the least of favours given to the 'Greeks' by changing the flag was the division caused between Macedonians living in the Republic and diaspora as well as the disconnect between the Republic and the occupied territories. The aim has always been to divide and conquer. Sad to see some people are complacent and for those even happy about it, well never mind.

Indigen your comments about Vinozhito can not be more true. As much as Vinozhito does to help the Aegean Macedonians have a little belief and pride in themselves, the 'Greeks' and our own traitors use them for their own political purposes. Otherwise, Vinozhito would never have been allowed to exist.

We're a long way from lifting off the shackles of tyranny, deception and oppression.

We're all Macedonians and we have 1 flag, quess which one?

[Vangelovski]

Bratot,

Besides all your posts justifying the ventilator because Macedonia happened to go to war after it had the ventilator imposed on it, you used photo's of dead soldiers from 2001 to make your point - that's your war theory - that somehow the treasonous acceptance of flag changes (designed specifically to deny us any connection with the ancient Macedonians and our lineage) is now acceptable because the brave men that fought to defend fellow Macedonians were forced to wear the ventilator by our own government. Those SAME soldiers formed DOSTOINSTVO and REJECTED the ventilator and FREELY adopted the SONCE as their symbol.

WHY IS IT THAT THE VERY MEN WHO FOUGHT THAT WAR REJECT THE VENTILATOR, YET YOU USE THEM AS A JUSTIFICATION TO ACCEPT THE TREASON THEY STRUGGLE AGAINST?

Now you're trying to convince us that the Interim Accord was not designed to deconstruct our sovereingty and identity!?!? What, according to you, was it designed to do? And if the Interim Accord is so acceptable for you, why don't you like the name FYROM?

[aleksandrov]

You sound Greek to me.

I can see why you think ventilatori serve a good purpose, you are very much like one. Likes to blow some dust around, kick up a big fuss about something but in the end let the AC (or real people fight the fights).

When were you appointed spokesperson of the 'real people' who 'fight the fights'?

This is how the designers, architects and 'official' representatives of your flag and your idea of Macedonia treat the "real people who fight the fights":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rV-VaVGVXk&feature=related

[aleksandrov]

“Patriotism varies, from a noble devotion to a moral lunacy” - W. R. Inge

"My country, right or wrong" is a thing no patriot would ever think of saying except in a desperate case. It is like saying "My mother, drunk or sober." - G.K. Chesterton

The peace and welfare of this and coming generations of Americans will be secure only as we cling to the watchword of true patriotism: "Our country -- when right to be kept right; when wrong to be put right. - C. Shurz

Moral cowardice that keeps us from speaking our minds is as dangerous to this country as irresponsible talk. The right way is not always the popular and easy way. Standing for right when it is unpopular is a true test of moral character. - M. C. Smith

The notion that a radical is one who hates his country is naïve and usually idiotic. He is, more likely, one who likes his country more than the rest of us, and is thus more disturbed than the rest of us when he sees it debauched. He is not a bad citizen turning to crime; he is a good citizen driven to despair. - H.L. Mencken

Да ја уништиме секоја рака, која се подига да фрли кал на нашето знаме; пат толку рамен за нас, а колку гибелен за секој наш противник. - Гоце Делчев

Вазалското знаме на Глигоров и неговите наследниците е кал врз НАШЕТО ЗНАМЕ.

[aleksandrov]

A wake-up call to those who insist that the attack on the sovereign Macedonian flag is a deed of only past generations:

"Орелот и „Вергина“ ќе летаат од општините
Игор Чавески

Министерството за локална самоуправа ќе ги проверува симболите на општинските знамиња бидејќи било утврдено дека на поголем дел од нив се истакнати симболи на соседни земји, а освен тоа, се и во спротивност со сите хералдички правила, дознаваме од извори во Министерството. Наредбата да се направи ревизија на грбовите и на знамињата, кои покрај државното знаме се веат пред општинските згради, дошла од Владата по оценката дека е недозволиво да се истакнуваат симболи на странски држави, како што е двоглавиот орел што го има на знамето на Албанија, или, пак, сонцето на Вергина, на што Грција е особено чувствителна...."

http://www.vreme.com.mk/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabindex=1&tabid=1&EditionID=2008&ArticleID=139661

[Bratot]

Bratot,

Besides all your posts justifying the ventilator because Macedonia happened to go to war after it had the ventilator imposed on it, you used photo's of dead soldiers from 2001 to make your point - that's your war theory - that somehow the treasonous acceptance of flag changes (designed specifically to deny us any connection with the ancient Macedonians and our lineage) is now acceptable because the brave men that fought to defend fellow Macedonians were forced to wear the ventilator by our own government.

Point where(quote me) I used that photo or used the 'war theory' and later I will only repeat myself because you seems to be making your own fictious conclussions in order to be able to put your assumptions which in this case are 99% wrong.

If you remain dumbdeaf and donkey stubborn just for the sake of it there is no further purpose in discussion with you.

[indigen]

The way you see the current state flag doesn't mean it's the same for the rest of the ppl.

I will continue to agitate so that others might see it the same way. That is how politics of change works and it is a shame there is not an organised Macedonian National Movement to do this job more effectively.

And if you seek further madeup divisions go ahead, in the popular SDSM-DPMNE style.

We should not avoid nor sweep ideological questions under the carpet in the hope that they will go away. No individual is born with an intact ideology but rather develops one over time in the crucible of political and social experiences during their life. Macedonian Consciousness needs to be nurtured and promulgated on a continuous basis.

The 30.000 of ppl 2 years ago went on a protest initiated by few students, against the name change under the both flags, I suppose you will also mark them with X-traitors or ideologically incompetent since using the "ventilator"?

Ideologically suspect, yes! :-)
But I would not blame ALL the people in the least because I know how ORGANISERS can give IMPRESSIONS and use the imagery to make political claims. It would be a good bet that other forces may have had a hand in ensuring the Ramkovist (Ventilator) flag had a good showing.

What I see coming is a NEW (and SIMILAR) EPISODE of IMPOSING, CONVINCING and JUSTIFYING a new name for the state and the INTERNATIONAL DESIGNATION of our identity and language. Just wait and see. The Actors have been hired and shooting of the FEATURE has began in secret.

[Soldier of Macedon]

The circumstances which instigated and led to the adoption of the new flag were disgraceful. We all agree.

The old flag should be reinstated at the very first opportunity. We all agree.

We don't have to respect, accept or like the new flag, but logic and common sense requires us to acknowledge the reality of our current situation, because at this point in time, it is the official flag of the Macedonian state. Rather than discussing strategies about how we can bring about a change so the old flag is reinstated, people are only complaining about the new flag and almost accusing others of being against the Macedonian Cause for not 'hating' it as much as they do.

Does anybody here have a realistic suggestion on how to go about having the old flag reinstated, and what needs to be done to make this happen?