Ventilator

[Soldier of Macedon]

I don't think Volk even knows what he is trying to argue.

[Vangelovski]

read my above post again, and again until you decide to answer it

You're an idiot. You claim there may be a rock and then you want others to prove there isn't one. You either believe there is a rock and you can show us evidence that it does exist, or you don't know if there is a rock and your just talking crap as usual.

[Volk]

Volk, stop turning logic and reason on its head. Is there a rock or isn't there? If there is a rock, show us the evidence that it exists and that it is what you claim it to be. Do you have any? Or do you believe in a non-existent rock?

read my above post again, and again until you decide to answer it

[Vangelovski]

If your going to claim its not real, you need to provide the evidence
your narcissist opinion aside you purposely miss the main point:

The symbol should have no baring on the fact that the Sonce of Kutlesh is the first flag adopted by a free modern Macedonian state and its removal as such is a clear capitulation of our identity.

Do you disagree with this?

Volk, stop turning logic and reason on its head. Is there a rock or isn't there? If there is a rock, show us the evidence that it exists and that it is what you claim it to be. Do you have any? Or do you believe in a non-existent rock?

[Volk]

Most likely hey? How about offering some EVIDENCE?

If your going to claim its not real, you need to provide the evidence
your narcissist opinion aside you purposely miss the main point:

The symbol should have no baring on the fact that the Sonce of Kutlesh is the first flag adopted by a free modern Macedonian state and its removal as such is a clear capitulation of our identity.

Do you disagree with this?

[Vangelovski]

The symbol most likely is real and is the oldest depiction of our sun found in our state, however this should have no baring on the fact that the Sonce of Kutlesh is the first flag adopted by a free modern Macedonian state and its removal as such is a clear capitulation of our identity.

Most likely hey? How about offering some EVIDENCE?

[Volk]

Even if that rock is authentic etc. What does it have to do with our current flag? Our current flag wasn't based on this rock and surely wasn't based on a royal symbol of the Macedonian's etc. like the Sonce was. The current flag was made up Miroslav Grcev who was a graphics designer. Thus the resemblance of the current flag to the sun on the rock is irrelevant as it is not a symbol that has represented Macedonian's for thousands of years. It is an artificial symbol created to please Greece.

Where did I say it had anything to do with it?

[vojnik]

Your ignorance of Macedonian symbols is obvious when your not even aware how many rays are depicted by the symbol throughout our history.

Care for a banana now?

Your attempts to simply brush of the authenticity of such a find give credence to 'ventrilatoristi" (LOL) because your argument is, its not real, it has no significance therefor its not relevant to the government flag.

The symbol most likely is real and is the oldest depiction of our sun found in our state, however this should have no baring on the fact that the Sonce of Kutlesh is the first flag adopted by a free modern Macedonian state and its removal as such is a clear capitulation of our identity.

Even if that rock is authentic etc. What does it have to do with our current flag? Our current flag wasn't based on this rock and surely wasn't based on a royal symbol of the Macedonian's etc. like the Sonce was. The current flag was made up Miroslav Grcev who was a graphics designer. Thus the resemblance of the current flag to the sun on the rock is irrelevant as it is not a symbol that has represented Macedonian's for thousands of years. It is an artificial symbol created to please Greece.

[Volk]

Volk, are you dancing like a moneky again? Go back to post 1. This has nothing to do with how many rays the sonce may or may not have had. The comment I made on the rock is a side issue about one of the BS tactics the ventilatoristi are using to promote the ventilator.

Your ignorance of Macedonian symbols is obvious when your not even aware how many rays are depicted by the symbol throughout our history.

Care for a banana now?

Your attempts to simply brush of the authenticity of such a find give credence to 'ventrilatoristi" (LOL) because your argument is, its not real, it has no significance therefor its not relevant to the government flag.

The symbol most likely is real and is the oldest depiction of our sun found in our state, however this should have no baring on the fact that the Sonce of Kutlesh is the first flag adopted by a free modern Macedonian state and its removal as such is a clear capitulation of our identity.

[Vangelovski]

There are 4 and 8 ray versions of the sonce also, your argument is flawed, if the stone found resembles todays flag is completely irrelevant as to why the only flag Macedonia should have is the 16 ray sun.

Volk, are you dancing like a moneky again? Go back to post 1. This has nothing to do with how many rays the sonce may or may not have had. The comment I made on the rock is a side issue about one of the BS tactics the ventilatoristi are using to promote the ventilator.

[Volk]

There is a picture of a rock going around the net, but it has no resemblance, in my view, to anything. Further, there is no information provided with the picture so for all we know, someone just scratched it out on a rock they found in the backyard a few years back.

There are 4 and 8 ray versions of the sonce also, your argument is flawed, if the stone found resembles todays flag is completely irrelevant as to why the only flag Macedonia should have is the 16 ray sun.

[Vangelovski]

I would really like to do some more research on the museum of Stip and if they have such a rock. Tentov was very honest sounding, and his mention of this really had no part in the presentation, it somehow came up during the question period afterward.

There is a picture of a rock going around the net, but it has no resemblance, in my view, to anything. Further, there is no information provided with the picture so for all we know, someone just scratched it out on a rock they found in the backyard a few years back.

[ProMKD]

Thanks Vangelovski.

The first thing I must say is WTF to my 18-ray post. I posted it twice. I must have been getting confused when I was typing 8-ray, then just wrote 18-ray. How embarassing :S

I agree that it shouldn't be viewed in the same light as burek/chewing gum, that was really what I was trying to say. Modern people are stupid and will get used to everything. I bet if they changed the flag to add an AK-47 like that african country did, people would stop complaining after a short time and use it. Scary.

I would really like to do some more research on the museum of Stip and if they have such a rock. Tentov was very honest sounding, and his mention of this really had no part in the presentation, it somehow came up during the question period afterward.

Don't give up our sun! When I see that flag flapping in the wind, it gives me goosebumps. All I can hear is "Biser Balkanski" and "Edno Ime Imame" in my head!

[Vangelovski]

Hi guys, I just found this thread and think it's a good topic. I scanned through the last few pages of arguing, and I really don't want to start it again, just want to share my opinion:

1. I think the reason that the 'ventilator' flag is popular today because it represents today's Macedonia, and as if it were gevrek and yogurt or a new type of burek, people get used to it. The fact of the matter is, it IS part of the interim agreement, and it is technically and lawfully TEMPORARY. This is why I believe the true flag is our 18-ray sun.

2. Very interestingly, I recently saw a presentation regarding the Rosetta Stone and it's Ancient Macedonian inscription, by professors Aristotel Tentov and Tome Bosevski. At the end of the presentation, Tentov mentioned that purely by coincidence, he found out about an ancient stone that's now in a national museum in Stip, Macedonia. This stone is older than any other stone bearing a Macedonian sun, and has 8-rays, just like the 'ventilator' of today. So he said, not to tell you that this is the 'right' flag, but it's interesting that it's the oldest form of Macedonian sun ever unearthed.

At the end of the day, Macedonians all around the world should identify themselves with our 18-ray flag. Giving up this flag means giving up on the Macedonian cause. Personally, do I like the design of the 8-ray? Sure! It looks good, but my heart and soul are engraved with Alexander's Sonceto od Kutlesh!

ProMKD,

Its good to have you on the forum. Welcome.

The ventilator certainly represents today's 'Macedonia', that is the Capitulatory-Ramkovist Macedonia that we now have. The ventilator should not be viewed in the same light a the latest flavour of new bubble gum as the issue is not about asthetics or passing fashion. It is about freedom and our ability to exercise it.

On the other note, there is no rock with the ventilator or anything that even remotely resembles the ventilator on it. It is a myth to drum up support fo the ventilator.

P.S. the sonce has 16 rays, not 18. There are 10 and 12 ray versions in the archaeological record, but not 18.

[ProMKD]

Hi guys, I just found this thread and think it's a good topic. I scanned through the last few pages of arguing, and I really don't want to start it again, just want to share my opinion:

1. I think the reason that the 'ventilator' flag is popular today because it represents today's Macedonia, and as if it were gevrek and yogurt or a new type of burek, people get used to it. The fact of the matter is, it IS part of the interim agreement, and it is technically and lawfully TEMPORARY. This is why I believe the true flag is our 18-ray sun.

2. Very interestingly, I recently saw a presentation regarding the Rosetta Stone and it's Ancient Macedonian inscription, by professors Aristotel Tentov and Tome Bosevski. At the end of the presentation, Tentov mentioned that purely by coincidence, he found out about an ancient stone that's now in a national museum in Stip, Macedonia. This stone is older than any other stone bearing a Macedonian sun, and has 8-rays, just like the 'ventilator' of today. So he said, not to tell you that this is the 'right' flag, but it's interesting that it's the oldest form of Macedonian sun ever unearthed.

At the end of the day, Macedonians all around the world should identify themselves with our 18-ray flag. Giving up this flag means giving up on the Macedonian cause. Personally, do I like the design of the 8-ray? Sure! It looks good, but my heart and soul are engraved with Alexander's Sonceto od Kutlesh!