Ventilator

[indigen]

It

Alexandrov said;

Originally Posted by indigen View Post
IME, ..Their logic as applied to Macedonian issues in RoM starts to resemble Greek and Bulgar propaganda respectively applied to Macedonians under their rule/occupation, e.g. Greeks use low vote numbers for Vinozhito or lack of mass protests to deny existence of a Macedonian indigenous minority and Bulgar authorities use their census data, amongst other rationale, to do the same. All the obstacles affecting Macedonians are conveniently ignored and the oppressive policies justified, ...

Good analogy.

Poor analogy actually. Not only do I defend the Macedonians in Aegean & Pirin with passion but I have intentionally created these topics;

Actually, very poor COMPREHENSION skills on your part, as usual.

[indigen]

Indigen, thank you what a wonderful compliment
I may be in the under 30 age group with an almost 21 year old son , ha ha ha

Feeling left out, Julie? Please expand on your rationale for above statement and I might be able to include you (and other like you) in the storyline because there is a bit more room for inclusion. :-)

Cheers

[EgejskaMakedonia]

Although i respect both of these flags immensely, personally the older flag looks much better. When i see the old flag it fills me with pride for Macedonia and being Macedonian, something that the new flag just doesn't do for me. It's great to see that the old flag hasn't been forgotten, in the diaspora it seems to be the main symbol for the Macedonians, along with the lion.
When it comes down to it they are both suns and both represent Macedonia significantly, however the thought that this flag wasn't 'chosen' by the peoples' own free will i guess shows why many Macedonian's don't feel patriotic under the new flag.
I hope one day that the flag is reverted back to the 16 ray sonce and to embrace the recent history of Macedonia i think the coat of arms would be great with the lion and the 8 ray sun in the background. :rmacedonia

[Prolet]

My family on my fathers side are originally from Pirin (some of which are still under oppresive rule). I've always been about uniting the diaspora into one force. I hope you have a better understanding of my intentions now.

TM, Spolaj Ti for this information

You are one of the most passionate people when it comes to Pirinska Makedonija, i fully support you and i believe its extremely important that our minority there is not forgotten.

[Bill77]

for the sole interest in destroying Macedonia's neighbors propaganda. One post of which made the news in Macedonia. My family on my fathers side are originally from Pirin (some of which are still under oppresive rule). I've always been about uniting the diaspora into one force. I hope you have a better understanding of my intentions now.

There is no dought about your intentions TM. Whith the amount of time and efort you put in and there is plenty of evidance, you are a TRUE MACEDONIAN.

[indigen]

How about you read my previous post...'age argument'.

How about you read my previous post....

Yeah, I missed that! :-)
Sorry about that, but it must be my “old age” at play here and the fact that a few pages more were added to the topic in one day.

I think you misunderstand the “age argument” completely, IME!
Let me explain that in 1994 SDSm and Gligorov, who inherited and controlled the coercive machinery of the old Communist state, massively rigged the presidential and parliamentary elections and VMRO-DPMNE and Democratic Party (of Petar Goshev and Co) and their allies boycotted the 2nd round, forfeited any seats won in 1st round and remained out of parliament for 4 years. Thus SDSm and their allies had total control in the parliament with unrestricted power to do as they pleased, which would never happen in any democratic country. This ILLEGITIMATE REGIME got backing from the IC Imperial masters and all protests were thwarted through force, intimidation and media monopoly misinformation and manipulation. IC backing was in return for capitulation and the signing of the 1995 Treasonous “Interim Accord” (and giving up the national flag).

At this juncture the opposition parties (including Democratic Party of Goshev) proclaimed that they would not recognise the legitimacy of the treasonous act/s and continued to use only the old flag. In 1997 Krushevo Ilinden commemoration a MASSIVE VMRO-DPMNE turnout, many waving the Macedonian Sun flag or Flags with The Macedonian Lion, booed and jeered Gligorov during his speech and caused a scandal. None of them used the new flag and that is why I am saying that there was political contention on the use of flags during this period and no non-SDS supporter would dare to be seen waving the “Ventilator”. Things started to change after the Bugroman takeover of DPMNE in late 1997 and official opposition was gradually ended (but I am not sure when). As my memory is hazy from here on, I would say that many patriotic “vmrovci” continued to deride the Ventilator but post 2002 election seems to be the turning point for mainstream party endorsement of the Ramkovist state flag, and in any case it could not be changed without Gheg input from then on.

Maybe you don't understand me in essence and should really restrain from categorising the pain since we are all part of it and maybe the younger generations could be fury for the opportunity you had and blew it so the burden felt on the them today and have to carry on the shame.

I don't understand people who want to respect symbols of shame and capitulation but I am prepared to give leeway for the younger generation as the state system and all the political machinery at its disposal has been promoting it (Ventilatorot) without major contention in the political arena for over 10 years now. Any older folks who support it would be either political partisans who blindly follow party directions or persons who swing with whichever way the direction of the political wind blows of those in power in RoM. The late 1980's and early 1990's was a time of euphoric expectation of imminent Macedonian state sovereignty and the declaration of independence and adoption of the Macedonian Sun as the national flag was the climax in modern Macedonian history and it has been downhill from there on. I am not blaming you or younger generation but the vassals that run the state system and their anti-Macedonian patrons.

IME, the younger generation could/should rightfully be in fury against the older ones (and even curse them to burn in hell, feel free to do it! But you must at the same time take into account the oppressive policies affecting Macedonians and the obstacles they create/created to effective action or reaction and identify the real culprits at which that fury must be directed against.) for blowing national sovereignty and losing the state! I would like to see that happening and at the same time your generation taking action to reclaim some of the loss rather than allowing even further losses.

The acceptance of the change itself -of the flag was an failure and disgrace but the current flag which emerged from that situation is our close design which should adequately be important when we are identifying with the same symbol - the sun and the flag colours.

I don't accept your rationale and you too can read earlier posts of mine as well as those of Vangelovski, Aleksandrov and others for the reason of why.

There is no need of making an absurdity of discussion and spitting on this flag.

See previous point above.

The unofficial Macedonian flag is the 16 rayed sun and if we succeed in our struggle we will bring it back for the official.

IME, the struggle should be waged under the national symbol - Macedonian Sun (unmodified 16-ray sun of Kutlesh) and should be utilised at every level and serve as a universal motif of Macedonian identity.


Something from memory lane:

Macedonians take protests to the streets
SMH May 10, 1993.

[nice image of protesters with lots of Macedonian Sun flags!]

below photo says: Members of Sydney's Macedonian community show off their flag and air their protests in a march up George Street yesterday. "This is our flag, this is our nation, and no one should change it."

[Bratot]

The way you see the current state flag doesn't mean it's the same for the rest of the ppl.

And if you seek further madeup divisions go ahead, in the popular SDSM-DPMNE style.

The 30.000 of ppl 2 years ago went on a protest initiated by few students, against the name change under the both flags, I suppose you will also mark them with X-traitors or ideologically incompetent since using the "ventilator"?








moro photos and a video

http://kicevo.blog.mk/2008/02/28/sliki-od-protestot-za-imeto-27-fevruari-2008-ploshtad-%E2%80%9Epela%E2%80%9C/

[Vangelovski]

Respecting the treasonous capitulation does not help in rectifying the situation. How do you expect people to revolt over the Interim Accord and the ventilator specifically, if you are calling on them to respect it? Has anyone ever revolted against something they respect?

You cannot claim that "the sonce should never have been removed" and acknowledge that is was treason and then in the same breath say that we have to "respect" that treason. This is unacceptable, and is no different to UMD's double-talk on the name.

And I still have not been provided with an explanation by anyone who used the argument that "war" has somehow purified a symbol of treason? HOW has "war" made the ventilator "ok"? Why only the ventilator, and no other aspects of the Interim Accord? Why the double standard? And finally, why has "war" made the ventilator "ok" for those who used the war argument, yet Dostoinstvo, the organisation representing the 2001 veterans who actually fought the war, refuses to use the ventilator?

Bratot,

Maybe you can provide some answers to the questions that I posed - or doesn't anyone want to speak about the elephant in the room? If you can accept this treason, what's stopping you from accepting a new name 15 years after its being forced onto us? In fact, what's stopping you from accepting FYROM now - its part of the same treason as the ventilator?

[Daniel the Great]

I don't know about yous but i think this is the best flag.

[Bill77]

I want any of you guys to tell the Family of these heros, there sons were not Patriots.

[Bratot]

Bratot,

Maybe you can provide some answers to the questions that I posed - or doesn't anyone want to speak about the elephant in the room? If you can accept this treason, what's stopping you from accepting a new name 15 years after its being forced onto us? In fact, what's stopping you from accepting FYROM now - its part of the same treason as the ventilator?

What is stopping you to accept the current flag as another Macedonian symbol?

Why do you need to attach a characteur of treason to the flag instead to the former/current leadership?




Irony isn't?

I see the current flag as part of the symbols which identify the Macedonians, or to put it differently every simbol used by the Macedonians is/will be equally Macedonian and I don't see an urge to limit that.



such as








Most of the ppl have accepted the current flag as a national symbol and that does NOT mean they have agreed or have accepted a name change now or in the future.

[Daskalot]

Thank you for the Great pictures Bratot, the last two are huge!

[Jankovska]

I agree with Bratot, I have aceepted the new flag, actually I prefer it coz I thinks it's stronger looking than the old but I will never in a million years for nothing in the world accept a name change. Ever.

[Bill77]

I want any of you guys to tell the Family of these heros, there sons were not Patriots.

People can call it the ventilator. Reality its the Sun. Ofcourse i prefer the original. But that comes down to taste, and not because i think the curent flag does not symbolize Macedonia.



The law on the flag


Act on the Flag of the Republic of Macedonia
adopted by the Assembly of the Republic of Macedonia on its session held on 5 October 1995,
proclaimed the same day by Decree No 08-3359/1



Article 1.
This Act establishes the flag of the Republic of Macedonia.

Article 2.
The flag of the Republic of Macedonia is red with a golden-yellow sun. The sun has eight rays, emerging from the sun disk, thickening towards the end. The sun rays are crossing diagonally, horizontally and vertically.
The diameter of the sun-disk is equal to one-seventh of the length of the flag.
The centre of the sun coincides with the intersection of the diagonals of the flag.
The ratio between the width and the length of the flag is one to two.

Article 3.
The design illustration of the flag of the Republic of Macedonia is a constitutent part of this Act.

Article 4.
On the day this Act comes into effect the Act on the Flag of the Republic of Macedonia (Official Gazette of the Republic of Macedonia No 50/92) ceases to exist.

Article 5.
This Act comes into effect on the day of its publication in the Official Gazette of the Republic of Macedonia.

Unoffical translation of Decree 08-3359/1, as published in Služben vesnik na Republika Makedonija (Official Gazette of the Republic of Macedonia), 6 October 1995.

Jos Poels, 21 November 1995

http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/mk.html#his

[Jankovska]

I want any of you guys to tell the Family of these heros, there sons were not Patriots.

They were more than patriots, true heros who died for Macedonia. They didn't just sit and bitch about things they fought for the country. They died under a flag that to them represented Macedonia, they didn't need anything else, no politics, no bitching. They died for a flag that represented the country they love.