Perceptions of God, Creationism and Evolution

[makedonin]

I believe I have found the Truth in my faith in Jesus Christ and there is nothing more then I would enjoy then for all to join me. However if God has other plans for your life then I will accept that also.

Your God has only one plan for those who dont believe his foolish plan, that is eternal torment.

Are you fine with that?

We have the small Greece in the bible: God creates man who should cause a problem, comes up with a plan of sacrificial offering redemption and at last he sacrifices him self for redemption so he can show of his glory.

[Onur]

Religion is a tool used by the few to control the many, quite simple.

Amen to that!!!

[makedonin]

I will expand on this little:

17. Here is a simple but significant proposition: all ideas (especially abstract ones) are faint and obscure and are apt to be confused with other ideas. But all impressions (that is, all sensations) are strong and difficult to mistake. Therefore if we want to know if a philosophical term has any meaning or idea (and often it does not), all we need to ask is, from what impression is that supposed idea derived. If there is none, then the term has no meaning. To enquire after the impression behind an idea is the way to remove disputes concerning nature and reality.

Math derives from very simple observation. Because it reached very high degree of abstraction it is first obscure for many people second it is applicable in almost every field. It is used to describe models for different observed natural phenomena in terms of quantity and relation.

The term God display same abstract characteristics, it is obscure faint idea because no one has seen him AND its level of abstraction allows to be related to anything someone wants to relate it.

That is why all religions can make their own claims relating them to God, therefore all of them are only human abstraction and tool to replace the unknown.

Pascal Blaise had put it interestingly:

If there is a god, He is infinitely incomprehensible, since, having neither parts nor limits, He has no affinity to us. We are then incapable of knowing either what He is or if He is....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager

So he waged and so do all Christians. The problem with the wager is weather the Christianity is worshiping the real God. For that there is no proof because the Biblical god shows clear evolutionary traits fro anthropomorphic to spiritmorphic.

And they talk against evolution

[makedonin]

I just saw on page 26 the Law of logic is presented as proof of God being a logical designer. Well apart from the historic development of logic we see the Bible claiming that the logic of this world is foolishness and invalid (1 Corinthians 1:20). Logic as tool of philosophy gave birth of science and the Bible is denouncing that. Science however proved the biblical knowledge about our solar system as fraud so neither throwing Kepler in equation won't help much.
Logic is in no way perfect tool to describe the phenomenal world, which in borderline cases makes only logical paradox.. In phenomenal reality there are paradox circumstances only because thought and its nature is abstraction of partial sensory perception stored in memory. The rest is e relational extrapolation.
Here is David Hume on this:

An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding
on Liberty and Necessity
on Miracles
on Providence and a Furture State
on the Academic or Sceptical Philosophy
on the Reasoning of Animals
Sceptical Doubts concerning the Operations of Understanding
Sceptical Solution of these Doubts
the Association of Ideas
the Idea of Necessary Connection
the Origin of Ideas
An Enquiry Concerning the Principles of Morals
on Benevolence
on Justice
on Political Society
on Qualities Immediately Agreeable to Others
why utility pleases
on Qualities Immediately Agreeable to Ourselves
on Qualities of Usefulness to Ourselves
SECTION II: the Origin of Ideas

11. Everyone agrees that there is a difference between the present perceptions of the mind (as in feeling pain of excessive heat and the pleasure of warmth) and the later memories of these sensations or anticipation of them in his memory. The latter lack the force of the original sentiment. And only a diseased or mad mind cannot know the difference. Even a poet cannot convey the real thing. The most lively thought is always inferior to the dullest sensation.

To be in a fit of anger is different from thinking of that emotion. I can create a conception about another person you say is in love, but my conception is different from his emotion. Our reflections on our past emotions may make copies (as a faithful mirror makes copies), but they will be faint in contrast to the original perceptions.

12. Thus we may divide all perceptions of the mind into two classes: Impressions and Thoughts or ideas. Impressions (and here the meaning is different from the usual) are all our more lively perceptions when we hear, see, feel, love, hate, desire or will. Ideas are all our less lively perceptions when we reflect on these sensations.

13. We may conceive of what we have not seen (monsters and strange shapes) and nothing is beyond our thought except what implies an absolute contradiction [e.g. a square circle]. But all our self-created conceptions (such as a gold mountain or a virtuous horse) are from our faculty of compounding, transposing, augmenting or diminishing materials of thought afforded us by the senses and experiences. All our ideas or more feeble perceptions are copies of our impressions or more lively perceptions.

14-15. I offer two arguments to prove this. First, when we analyse our thoughts we can reduce them to simple ideas that were copied from previous feelings or sentiments. Thus, the idea of the mind of God comes from reflecting on the operations of our own mind and extending, without limit, the qualities of goodness and wisdom. Ask anyone to show an idea that has not been derived from an impression and he cannot offer one. [Our idea of God’s love comes from rationally extending our experience: e.g. our mother’s love.]

The second argument to prove that all our ideas are copies of impressions is this: if a person has a defect in an organ that causes him to lack a sensation, he will also lack the corresponding ideas. A blind man can have no notion of colour or a deaf man of sounds. But restore ability to receive the sensation, and you open the way for the idea. If a Laplander has never applied his taste organ to wine, he will have no idea of it. To a lesser degree, a man of mild manners has no idea of revenge or cruelty; and a man with a selfish heart cannot conceive of good friendship and generosity. In this way others may have ideas of which we have no conception because we have not had the required feelings or sensations.

16. There is, however, one contradictory phenomenon. The sensations of colours which enter the eye and the sensations of sound which enter the ear are distinct from each other. And yet if they are laid out in order, with one shade of colour or sound omitted, one would perceive a blank where the shade or sound is missing. And one should be able to fill in the blank. But this exception should not cause us to question our general maxim: ideas come from sensations.

17. Here is a simple but significant proposition: all ideas (especially abstract ones) are faint and obscure and are apt to be confused with other ideas. But all impressions (that is, all sensations) are strong and difficult to mistake. Therefore if we want to know if a philosophical term has any meaning or idea (and often it does not), all we need to ask is, from what impression is that supposed idea derived. If there is none, then the term has no meaning. To enquire after the impression behind an idea is the way to remove disputes concerning nature and reality.

*

http://www.livingphilosophy.org.uk/philosophy/David_Hume/the_Origin_of_Ideas.htm

[Daskalot]

Religion is a tool used by the few to control the many, quite simple.

[George S.]

TM i thought you were christian we are all entitled to our views.As i said have we got any future without god???God has a plan for mankind.The bible is his word.We have to make a choice.The new testament confirms that whatever was written in the old testament & it supports it.I know that it portray's god as an angry god but that was god revealing himself as an angry god when the israelites continually disobeyed god.So god is an angry god & a loving god.The loving god comes out in the new testament where jesus "amplified"what god was.Essentially god is a god of love.But also he can be angry as man continually lets him down as told in the old testament.It shows that god never changes.
Also there is a description of god in the book of revelation of what god looks like.If you were to look at him he is bright like the sun in full strength with eyes head feet hands,etc composed of spirit,holy spirit.If you were to look at him with the naked eye he would blind you. TM i never thought that you would be writing this stuff but i respect you.I feel sorry that you think like that.If you look in the book of isiah it shows that the earth is not flat but is a circle of a round earth.In isiah it also tells of jesu's coming.THe old testament is a starting point of god with the israelites.All those rules were made to help them to obey god as god demanded strict adherence to his laws.He gave them his laws & commandments on mt sinai 10 commandments.He gave them these because they had a heavy heart that they couldn't understand what they had to do.You'll notice that they refused to do what god wanted to do is forsake baal & worship god only.So people once again underestimate god they want to box god up & say that's what he is.But god is of love.It is commanded to love thy lord thy god with all your heart & soul.Who does that earnestly today.?also who obeys god.In the new testament as i said john the baptist came to prepare the way for jesus.Then jesus came to reveal the true nature about god.So forget what you read or think jesus reveals god to you.God is a god of love for he so loveth the world mankind that he gaveth his only begotten son so that they may know him & receive eternal life & the holy spirit.I think the bible is a reliable source & it definitely speaks out about what god is & what god is trying to achieve.TN do not give up hope.There is more to life beyond than people think.

[Daskalot]

What an interesting topic we have here, more than 300 posts and 3000 views..... WOW!

[TrueMacedonian]

Fair enough TM. As a Macedonian and an Orthodox Christian I still consider you my brother - regardless of whether or not we agree on every point. I also don't hold any disdain towards non-believers, atheists or any brothers and sisters on this forum or anyone else.

I believe I have found the Truth in my faith in Jesus Christ and there is nothing more then I would enjoy then for all to join me. However if God has other plans for your life then I will accept that also.

I have my own plans for life. Just like you have your own plans. If you want to believe there's something in the sky moving people around on a monopoly game of life picking and choosing their will for them then that's fine. I believe the opposite. But I won't hold anyone in any sort of opinion or pass judgement on others whatever their religious preference is.

[TrueMacedonian]

Guys reading so much bs i'm forced to writ this. If you let the bible explain itself in a lot of places jesus is the revelator & he reveals what the prophecies & the intention really is.The new testament gives a plain explanation what ithe bible is about i know looks like it's confusing to many.There are prophesies that many will fall by the wayside by false worship/beleifs about god ,not the few.The ways to a man are foolish to god.
dIn the book of john it tells you that people when they die they don't go to heaven or hell.They just die & stay in their grave.Their future hope is first a resurrection to judgement & you will be judged on whether you get eternal life or death.Where death means you cease to exist.Also it says that jesus is the first born.that is christ is the only one born of god of the god family.IN future we are to become part of the god family in a ressurrection of the dead.First unto judgement then unto everlasting life.From what i have read the resurrection unto everlasting life is one of abundace,hapinees overflowing,no sickness,joy no bounds.Once you are part of the god family you will be steered by the holy spirit,you will have holy rigthous character.God will be dwelling in you with his holy spirit.We will be composed of the same thing as god.
we will be made of spirit.(not matter)We have to do our bit accept jesus christ by beleiving in his gospel which means the message from god.God the father sent a message through his son the message is about mans destiny to become part of god,part of the god family.That is the kingdom of god on earth(not heaven).Jesus will be the king & he will regn as king of lords & lord of kings & he will reign in rightousness & truth.
In this life we are told that the devil or satan controls the earth.He confuses & makes people doubt god,also sets the human heart to test god by asking silly questions about god.In this life we can't know everything but in the next life we will know everything there is to know about god.God has revealed himself in his son jesus.God for so loved the world (mandkind) that he gave his only begotten son in order to save mankind from himself.This means that everything has a divine purpose man was devised so that god can reproduce himself.God is not limited to 3 personalities god the father,god the son'& god the holy spirit.The holy spirit is the power of god.God has allways existed he wasn't created.He is the life giving,he has made all things & things we don't know about & things we can't see.Do not limit god because we don't know a lot of things.As god reveals that his ways aren't our ways & vice versa.Jesus was his son & he died for mans sin.Sin cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven Jesus is the way to inherit the kingdom of heaven.
Whilst salvation is available for free we have to do our part as well.We have to do our part as christians with the right behaviour,or attitude.What will save people is if god gives them the gift of life.We dont have the gift of life now it will be in the future.
If we have doubt & ask unanswerable questions that is not going to help us.Remember the doubting thomases they wanted proof that jesus was crucified & didn't beleive wjhat he heard.In other words they did not have the faith in jesus that he was their saviour.
What did jesus say about the children,he said you have to be like a child to enter the kingdom of heaven.It's not rocket science to know every living being feels now is not the time to live life.Some people die young,they don't have a chance some people die old so they can't live long enough.Now in the life of a feles & blood human existance is not the time.Man's hope is in the knowledge & existence of a loving god.Who says he will make it happen.
He says heaven & hell may pass away but my words will not passaway (that's god's words in the bible)
If we don't beleive the god's word in the bible we don't have any hope at all.There is no road to eternal life in the future.Today god chooses what he want's to reveal.he doesn't need to reveal himself to be tested by mankind.BUt he says i'm god there is not another etc.He is the divine ruler of the universe have you ever contemplated the huuuge expanse of the universe &what's beyond???You only got to marvel at it.With god we have a future because he intends on reproducing himself it says in genesis we are in the image of god but composed of matter.Matter decays,or changes from one state to another.In the next life we will be composed by spirit which never decays,spirit lives on forever & never decays.I'm reminded of the saying in the new testament of how jesus tells people it would hard for a rch man to enter the kingdom of heaven than a poor man.He said the rich man set his heart on wealth wheras the poor man st his heart on things of god so he is going to make it in the scheme of things,he is going to get everlasting life & enter the kingdom of god.The kingdom of god is the divine family of god that is mans destiny to become like god.As isaid if you take away what god is trying to accomplish with man,man has no purpose in life but to live & die.But with gods love there are a lot of possibilities of hope & hapiness.I think that is too valuable to passup.It says only the fool have said there is no god in their heart.But if we set our heart on god we have a future There is a huuuge difference.What a "waste" of time people trying to derail god by asking silly & stupid questions to test god.Today god is not god of this world but the devil who is casting doubts about god.He is doing the same thing he triesto test god especially jesus who was on the mountain fasting for 40 day's & nites,the devil telling him

that if he could only jump from the huge height he tested him as to who he is prove to me that you are the son of god ,he wanted proof from god who god is.Jesus said that it is a commandment that thou dhalt not test thy lord god,don't put god to the test.
Also satn or the devil promissed to jesus he would give him all the fine cities in the world & wealth.Jesus said it is written that man cannot live by bread alone but must live by every word of god.The devil was trying to destroy gods plan to save mankind as he know's his time is short as he is a god of this planet.He tried to trick jesus & derail gods plan but he was too smartfor him.Just repeating man has a future with god or man does have no future with god take your pick.

George this is nice. But unfortunately the Old Testament is radically more different from the New Testament. God in the Old Testament is an angry, mean, jealous God that states that a man with a defect (scarred face, limbs too long, or someone who has something in his eye) cannot offer the bread of his God.
Then we have Jesus in the New Testament healing the sick and blind and etc.
George I like you man. Don't bible jive me though

[Mr Brandy]

I understand why people ask me this. And this is my answer.

Fair enough TM. As a Macedonian and an Orthodox Christian I still consider you my brother - regardless of whether or not we agree on every point. I also don't hold any disdain towards non-believers, atheists or any brothers and sisters on this forum or anyone else.

I believe I have found the Truth in my faith in Jesus Christ and there is nothing more then I would enjoy then for all to join me. However if God has other plans for your life then I will accept that also.

[TrueMacedonian]

TM - no need to get so defensive. The cross you display is not only a Christian cross but more-so an Orthodox christian cross. My logical assumption from seeing your avatar would be that you consider yourself to be a Macedonian Orthodox Christian!

My apologies for mis-intrepreting your avatar. There was no ill intention in my statement. It just seems hypocritical and misleading to have this as an avatar and also so vehemently speak out against scripture.

I understand why people ask me this. And this is my answer.

[George S.]

Guys reading so much bs i'm forced to writ this. If you let the bible explain itself in a lot of places jesus is the revelator & he reveals what the prophecies & the intention really is.The new testament gives a plain explanation what ithe bible is about i know looks like it's confusing to many.There are prophesies that many will fall by the wayside by false worship/beleifs about god ,not the few.The ways to a man are foolish to god.
dIn the book of john it tells you that people when they die they don't go to heaven or hell.They just die & stay in their grave.Their future hope is first a resurrection to judgement & you will be judged on whether you get eternal life or death.Where death means you cease to exist.Also it says that jesus is the first born.that is christ is the only one born of god of the god family.IN future we are to become part of the god family in a ressurrection of the dead.First unto judgement then unto everlasting life.From what i have read the resurrection unto everlasting life is one of abundace,hapinees overflowing,no sickness,joy no bounds.Once you are part of the god family you will be steered by the holy spirit,you will have holy rigthous character.God will be dwelling in you with his holy spirit.We will be composed of the same thing as god.
we will be made of spirit.(not matter)We have to do our bit accept jesus christ by beleiving in his gospel which means the message from god.God the father sent a message through his son the message is about mans destiny to become part of god,part of the god family.That is the kingdom of god on earth(not heaven).Jesus will be the king & he will regn as king of lords & lord of kings & he will reign in rightousness & truth.
In this life we are told that the devil or satan controls the earth.He confuses & makes people doubt god,also sets the human heart to test god by asking silly questions about god.In this life we can't know everything but in the next life we will know everything there is to know about god.God has revealed himself in his son jesus.God for so loved the world (mandkind) that he gave his only begotten son in order to save mankind from himself.This means that everything has a divine purpose man was devised so that god can reproduce himself.God is not limited to 3 personalities god the father,god the son'& god the holy spirit.The holy spirit is the power of god.God has allways existed he wasn't created.He is the life giving,he has made all things & things we don't know about & things we can't see.Do not limit god because we don't know a lot of things.As god reveals that his ways aren't our ways & vice versa.Jesus was his son & he died for mans sin.Sin cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven Jesus is the way to inherit the kingdom of heaven.
Whilst salvation is available for free we have to do our part as well.We have to do our part as christians with the right behaviour,or attitude.What will save people is if god gives them the gift of life.We dont have the gift of life now it will be in the future.
If we have doubt & ask unanswerable questions that is not going to help us.Remember the doubting thomases they wanted proof that jesus was crucified & didn't beleive wjhat he heard.In other words they did not have the faith in jesus that he was their saviour.
What did jesus say about the children,he said you have to be like a child to enter the kingdom of heaven.It's not rocket science to know every living being feels now is not the time to live life.Some people die young,they don't have a chance some people die old so they can't live long enough.Now in the life of a feles & blood human existance is not the time.Man's hope is in the knowledge & existence of a loving god.Who says he will make it happen.
He says heaven & hell may pass away but my words will not passaway (that's god's words in the bible)
If we don't beleive the god's word in the bible we don't have any hope at all.There is no road to eternal life in the future.Today god chooses what he want's to reveal.he doesn't need to reveal himself to be tested by mankind.BUt he says i'm god there is not another etc.He is the divine ruler of the universe have you ever contemplated the huuuge expanse of the universe &what's beyond???You only got to marvel at it.With god we have a future because he intends on reproducing himself it says in genesis we are in the image of god but composed of matter.Matter decays,or changes from one state to another.In the next life we will be composed by spirit which never decays,spirit lives on forever & never decays.I'm reminded of the saying in the new testament of how jesus tells people it would hard for a rch man to enter the kingdom of heaven than a poor man.He said the rich man set his heart on wealth wheras the poor man st his heart on things of god so he is going to make it in the scheme of things,he is going to get everlasting life & enter the kingdom of god.The kingdom of god is the divine family of god that is mans destiny to become like god.As isaid if you take away what god is trying to accomplish with man,man has no purpose in life but to live & die.But with gods love there are a lot of possibilities of hope & hapiness.I think that is too valuable to passup.It says only the fool have said there is no god in their heart.But if we set our heart on god we have a future There is a huuuge difference.What a "waste" of time people trying to derail god by asking silly & stupid questions to test god.Today god is not god of this world but the devil who is casting doubts about god.He is doing the same thing he triesto test god especially jesus who was on the mountain fasting for 40 day's & nites,the devil telling him

that if he could only jump from the huge height he tested him as to who he is prove to me that you are the son of god ,he wanted proof from god who god is.Jesus said that it is a commandment that thou dhalt not test thy lord god,don't put god to the test.
Also satn or the devil promissed to jesus he would give him all the fine cities in the world & wealth.Jesus said it is written that man cannot live by bread alone but must live by every word of god.The devil was trying to destroy gods plan to save mankind as he know's his time is short as he is a god of this planet.He tried to trick jesus & derail gods plan but he was too smartfor him.Just repeating man has a future with god or man does have no future with god take your pick.

[Mr Brandy]

This avatar has been my avatar for many years now on here and on Maknews.
Also, the cross is nothing more than a cultural symbol to me. Not one I revere as a symbol to worship. The cross represents a symbol that existed among Macedonians for well over a millenia. The Sun symbol, also in my avatar, is an older cultural symbol than the cross. I worship neither symbol in a religious way. The symbol is nothing more than aesthetic, cultural, and traditional and has been part of Macedonian society for a very long time. Needless to say millions of people around the world wear the cross around their necks yet haven't been religious at all or adhered to christianity.

So to you and everyone else who asked this is my answer. You may not like my answer but I don't particularly care what you like or think. I will continue to use this symbol to much of the disdain of creationists and bible believers.

TM - no need to get so defensive. The cross you display is not only a Christian cross but more-so an Orthodox christian cross. My logical assumption from seeing your avatar would be that you consider yourself to be a Macedonian Orthodox Christian!

My apologies for mis-intrepreting your avatar. There was no ill intention in my statement. It just seems hypocritical and misleading to have this as an avatar and also so vehemently speak out against scripture.

[vojnik]

Have you also found an answer to my questions or anything to disprove the facts presented so far by Tom and the video I supplied

[TrueMacedonian]

One skeleton was found what does this tell us? Nothing thats what. Lets for a second image evolution existed. What evidence do you have that that skeleton that "missing piece" the "evolutionary link" which split humans and apes survived to create the offspring how do you know it didn't die if evolution existed

Your ignorance is your strength. I will not entertain your ridiculous posts anymore. It seems so easy to simply wave things off with one fell swoop. But you asked for evidence and I provided it. Yet you or anyone else cannot provide me a detailed answer for this question I pose 3 times now:

Can you or any Creationist provide scientific proof outside of Genesis that God created the Heavens and the Earth in 6 days?