The bleakest time in Macedonia's history

[Risto the Great]

I posted a some half-truths under the inspiration of April Fool's day today.

One of my comments identified this present time as the bleakest time in Macedonia's long and noble history.

One forum participant asked the following:

Hi,
I am very interested by the statement about how the current era is the bleakest time in Macedonian history, a history that is obviously plenty "bleak". What makes you think that this is the bleakest time in Macedonia's history? Is this time worse than the Greek Civil War / Cold War period? Worse than the period between the Treaty of Bucharest partition and WWII? Worse than the Ottoman period? Please explain your reasoning.
Thanks

My response:

Hi,
because the first time we ever had a modern nation was in 1991.
And now it is threatened with extinction from within. When Macedonians are conspiring to change the identity of Macedonians, to go to court to insist they are called FYROMIANS, it is a bleak time. When Macedonians no longer control matters of Macedonian interest due to the Framework Agreement, that the ethnic Albanians have the final say, it is a bleak time. Is it the bleakest time because it is without hope or encouragement. If you compare that with say the civil war in modern Greece, there was abundant hope for the future of Macedonians back then.

Maybe you should look up the definition of "bleak".

Are things that bad? Am I a glass half empty kind of guy or what?

[Soldier of Macedon]

.......the first time we ever had a modern nation was in 1991. And now it is threatened with extinction from within. When Macedonians are conspiring to change the identity of Macedonians, to go to court to insist they are called FYROMIANS, it is a bleak time. When Macedonians no longer control matters of Macedonian interest due to the Framework Agreement, that the ethnic Albanians have the final say, it is a bleak time. Is it the bleakest time because it is without hope or encouragement. If you compare that with say the civil war in modern Greece, there was abundant hope for the future of Macedonians back then.

It is a bleak time for Macedonia, and while there have been bleaker times in the past (maybe not during struggles against the Ottoman Empire and modern Greece while morale was high, but certainly in the aftermath with all of the burning, looting, exodus, murder, rape and loss of territorial 'control'), this is by far the bleakest moment in our modern history as a nation.

Macedonians need to be pre-emptive and show some foresight, look ahead, and not wait for a similar aftermath before they can consider the seriousness of their situation, before they finally realise that their situation is indeed bleak - and possibly, beyond repair. We are already dangerously close.

[makedonche]

RTG
If we look at Goce Deltchev's words about an enslaved mind and look where we are over 100 years later - he would surely consider this as "bleak" - given we have had over a hundred years to rectify the problem!

[Risto the Great]

given we have had over a hundred years to rectify the problem!

Good point!

[Soldier of Macedon]

A hundred years since Delchev, but there were about 500 years before him where our predicament as slaves had changed very little. This extended period of time also presented opportunities for rectification. It's good to analyse snapshots of Macedonian history, so long as its place in the collective is realised.

[indigen]

Originally Posted by rujnovino
Hi,
I am very interested by the statement about how the current era is the bleakest time in Macedonian history, a history that is obviously plenty "bleak". What makes you think that this is the bleakest time in Macedonia's history? Is this time worse than the Greek Civil War / Cold War period? Worse than the period between the Treaty of Bucharest partition and WWII? Worse than the Ottoman period? Please explain your reasoning.
Thanks

It is THE BLEAKEST TIME as it relates to the SURVIVAL of the MACEDONIAN ENTITY, IMO! I f one thinks deeply about that proposition, they will see that it IS correct to say it is the BLEAKEST of TIMES in Macedonian history.

Can one say that KOSOVO today is the BLEAKEST of times in the history of Serbs, as it relates to KOSOVO? But the SERBS AS A WHOLE STILL HAVE SERBIA left as their state and their identity is not challenged whilst Macedonians do not have any other state but Macedonia (which is now co-owned) and a similar fate to Kosovo awaits them.

[George S.]

Definitely it's the bleakest not simply that it's affecting our identity that is bleak enough but that the politicians our own people are selling us out.From the flag capitulation the ventilator,to naming us fyrom,to the ramkoviot dogovor,interim accord,to the name negotiations it's been our own people selling out this is the worst period for macedonia.
They had us fooled for a while that they would never compromise on our name but behind the scenes secret deals in athens they were comprimising on the name republic of Macedonia (skopje).Why call a refendum when allready they capitulated on the name.
Whether it's for money or simply wanting to destroy macedonia off the face of the map.They are simply doing the dirty work for our enemies of finishing the job.
I'm extremely dissapointed in our politicians for they have let us down big time, don't think that we can continue capitulating it's not just the name or flag it's capitulating on our sovereignity as a nation we are simply giving in to the albanians by giving them what they want.We are ignoring the needs of our own macedonian citizens where this small country should be a tatkovina to the macedonian people first & foremost.Yes it's very bleak i would say it's the bleakest when our country will be taken away from us.I can't see no light un the tunnel on this sort of thing.Macedonia will simply cease to exist & we'll become like the jews & other people wanderers with no country.I think the kurds have no country,But macedonia will have no name & no country wiped off the map totally.What could be far worse.I don't want this to happen but looks like it is happening.

[rujnovino]

I posted a some half-truths under the inspiration of April Fool's day today.
One of my comments identified this present time as the bleakest time in Macedonia's long and noble history.
My response:
Hi,
because the first time we ever had a modern nation was in 1991.
And now it is threatened with extinction from within. When Macedonians are conspiring to change the identity of Macedonians, to go to court to insist they are called FYROMIANS, it is a bleak time. When Macedonians no longer control matters of Macedonian interest due to the Framework Agreement, that the ethnic Albanians have the final say, it is a bleak time. Is it the bleakest time because it is without hope or encouragement. If you compare that with say the civil war in modern Greece, there was abundant hope for the future of Macedonians back then.
Maybe you should look up the definition of "bleak".
Are things that bad? Am I a glass half empty kind of guy or what?

Thanks for the response, RTG, disappointing as it was.
I don't know what kind of guy you are, but I don't need to look up the word "bleak" in the dictionary. You might want to look up the phrase "long and noble" and the word "nation", though. Your desperatate backtracking is kind of funny, though.

As for this and the other Chicken Little comments, I'm surprised by the lack of historical perspective being displayed by otherwise intelligent, educated and well-read people - what trash. Calling 2011 the bleakest time in Macedonian history, or even suggesting it, is frankly insulting the generations that were sacrificed during the Ottoman times, the post-partition years, and the Civil War period, when Macedonia was being raped, pillaged and napalmed. My grandparents and great-grandparents lived through those years, and if you think times are bleaker now, you are completely out to lunch.

When was it that Albanians, Serbs, Bulgars and Greeks - or more distant world powers - weren't challenging Macedonia's existence, human rights, or prosperity? When was it that there weren't dushmani from withing, willing to do their bidding for a price? Never, that's when. What is the purpose of using this otherwise excellent website and source of great information about Macedonia, to whitewash our history, referring to some sort of Golden Age of hope which we never, ever had?

Macedonians face all kinds of challenges - in the Republic, and in the occupied territories. But if you think this is the worst time ever, you need to read some books. It's really NOT that easy to wipe out an entire nation, people and culture, and if the Greeks, etc. couldn't do it before, like hell they are going to do it now. I suggest everyone to stop pissing their pants, and rein in the outlandish overstatements, for the sake of your own credibility.

[Risto the Great]

OK rujnovino, how about "one of" the bleakest times? I see you want to discuss this with a bit of vigour, I hope you will address some of the negative aspects I have raised.

I gave my reasons and why they are "without hope or encouragement". I think my choice of words was correct. The only way Macedonia can get back its sovereignty now is through war. The Framework Agreement ensures Macedonians are not in control of their destiny. I did not say it was the most tragic time in Macedonia's history. Pick up the dictionary and look up the word, you might have it confused with something else.

You mentioned some notable historic periods pertaining to Macedonia. Each time, Macedonians had hope for better times and it always involved the nation being liberated. Now the only notable hope for Macedonia is to be liberated into the EU even if the identity is tarnished along the way. In which case it is not a bleak time for FYROM or Macedonia-Skopje.

I don't think it is difficult to wipe out a nation or deny a nation its rights. It has happened before. If millions of Kurds are yet to have a nation, then the potential exists for Macedonians to be denied again.

Staying on the definition of "bleak" and being a glass half full kind of guy, can you (with your dry pants) please tell me what provides abundant hope and encouragement for Macedonia right now?

I see you disagree with "long and noble" and "nation" though so will assume you feel that Macedonians started to exist in 1991.

When was it that Albanians, Serbs, Bulgars and Greeks - or more distant world powers - weren't challenging Macedonia's existence, human rights, or prosperity? When was it that there weren't dushmani from withing, willing to do their bidding for a price? Never, that's when. What is the purpose of using this otherwise excellent website and source of great information about Macedonia, to whitewash our history, referring to some sort of Golden Age of hope which we never, ever had?

When was it Macedonia had a formal nation and then immediately set in place mechanisms that guarantee its dismantling? What is the purpose of this website? To make people aware of matters that should be of concern to Macedonians. If all you got from my comments was a whitewash about better times, you interpreted it incorrectly. It was in fact much more about the BLEAKNESS that surrounds Macedonia in what should be an exciting new era in its LONG AND NOBLE history.

[Bill77]

STATEMENTS BY GREEK OFFICIALS AIM AT DIVERTING ATTENTION FROM THE POINTLESSNESS OF NAME ROW, SAYS NAUMOVSKI

Skopje, 4 April 2011 (MIA) - Statements made by current or former Greek officials aim at somehow diverting attention from the meaninglessness of the name dispute, imposed by Greece, said Vice PM responsible for European affairs Vasko Naumovski on Monday commenting a recent statement by ex-Greek ambassador to Macedonia, Alexandros Mallias, that the name issue is a matter of national security.

"The pointlessness of this dispute imposed by Greece stems from the fact that there is no other country in the world bearing the name Macedonia, or being related to an adjective Macedonian... which Macedonia might be identified with. This country has no other name, neither the people have had other identity in the past. Simply, the meaninglessness of the row further continues with similar statements," Naumovski stated before an opening of a conference on topic "EU Funds - Communications Strategy and Instruments".

He voiced hope that even in Greece an increasing number of politicians and citizens would understand that Macedonia posed no threat for Greece. "On the other hand, we - as a state and nation - have never had, nor can go by other name and identity. We believe that with Greece we will be able to work jointly for our common European future," the Vice PM noted.

http://www.idividi.com.mk/English/Ma...006/index.html

My word its pointless and Vasko admits it. Then why negotiate knowing what you know Mr Naumovski?

QUOTE: " This country has no other name, neither the people have had other identity"

Lately your government has been pushing (and still do) that we do. So make up your mind.

[Pelister]

Its a very bleak time. How many tens of thousands of Macedonians have died, fighting to be free, fighting against colonial aggression and the right to use their own language? We have a country of own, at long last, although it is only one part of the severed nation, and now less than a few decades later, we have Macedonian politicians meddling with our identity - and proposing that the political existence of the country be put to a vote! What could be worse? We have Macedonian politicians ignoring history. While the West are convinced that the Greeks have a case, the Macedonian leaders have literally buried the truth and have this moronic and blind belief in the efficacy of politics to leave history behind - which has also removed all the relevant historical context from the Greek position, making it impossible for them to actually make a rational decision about any of it. Its all about the conquest and the extermination of the Macedonians.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Rujnovino, do you consider this as a 'bleak' period in Macedonian history at all? And how would you rate it against other 'bleak' periods?

[Rogi]

As I see it, the most fundamental difference between the existing circumstances facing Macedonia and the Macedonians, with all other circumstances throughout Macedonia's tragic history, is what the hope for better days is based on.

All throughout history, the basis upon which the Macedonian people rested their hopes for better days, was a free and independent Macedonia, and later in history a free, independent and united Macedonia.

Today's hopes, it appears, are based on becoming part of a bigger entity (EU, NATO), giving up what is most precious and priceless in the process.

It represents a fundamental shift in what Macedonians dream of and hope for and indeed it is bleak. One can only imagine that the final manifestation of this shift will be a complete disregard for the very existence of an entity (state, country, nation, identity) named Macedonia and it will be the the Macedonian who gives it up, not the foreigner who takes it.

[makedonche]

As I see it, the most fundamental difference between the existing circumstances facing Macedonia and the Macedonians, with all other circumstances throughout Macedonia's tragic history, is what the hope for better days is based on.

All throughout history, the basis upon which the Macedonian people rested their hopes for better days, was a free and independent Macedonia, and later in history a free, independent and united Macedonia.

Today's hopes, it appears, are based on becoming part of a bigger entity (EU, NATO), giving up what is most precious and priceless in the process.

It represents a fundamental shift in what Macedonians dream of and hope for and indeed it is bleak. One can only imagine that the final manifestation of this shift will be a complete disregard for the very existence of an entity (state, country, nation, identity) named Macedonia and it will be the the Macedonian who gives it up, not the foreigner who takes it.

Rogi
Correct, it is not being taken away it is being embezzled!

[Pelister]

What about a commitment to the truth? How is reconciliation possible, if one party prefers to warmonger and export its lies to the entire world, while the other party (the Macedonians) contiually ignore the basic groundwork behind the Greek position and its attack? Bringing up the invasion of Macedonia, its depopulation has nothing to do about getting land back, its about putting the current Greek position into its proper political, cultural and historical context. Its about much needed perspective, so that individuals can make some rational and resonable decisions. A war of extermination is a war of extermination. On that basis alone, the Macedonians have a moral, ethical and historical duty to reject the 'negotiations' outright, to damn the E.U and NATO for failing to uphold principles of natural justice and natural rights (not to mention self preservation), and the Macedonian leadership have a responsibility to strengthen its hold on the land it currently holds (because that too is under internal threat). It seems that there are spinless political whores everwhere, not really interested in defending and protecting, simply "being seen" to be doing something. Gruevski has been comprising our identity from the beginning, and lying to the Macedonian people about the nature of the 'talks' and secret meetings he is involved in.