Huge uproar in Greece over a tv documentary called 1821 (Greek independance)

[spitfire]

Far from the truth though. The statement above shows how unclear the description of 'hellenic' or 'greek' can be. The sky is the limit, basically.

Yes, the sky is the limit. Try to think in the meaning of the word Hellenic rather than the race. The land, the stones and the light.

Exaggerated how? Biased towards what? Much of the contents of the documentary can easily be found with research.

Being 'greek' has/had no real clear meaning, i think you people just used that angle to your advantage.

Towards the turkish point of view of the things happening at the time, as the creators of the documentary accepted later.
The title also was exaggerated and changed also.

Used to owr own advantage? Yes, that too. Although I prefer to think of the whole world as having embraced those meanings. I'm not into the idea of nationalism or some chosen people by god.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Yes, the sky is the limit. Try to think in the meaning of the word Hellenic rather than the race. The land, the stones and the light.

Can you elaborate on the last sentence?

[spitfire]

Can you elaborate on the last sentence?

Hellas means light and stone. Las is used in other words today as a compound meaning stone. For instance "Latomeio" which broken down is the stone and the incision, and it means the quarry.
El is written with the aspirated mark of "daseia" meaning that there was another letter preceding "E". The Sigma. In greek "Selini" is the moon, the root is indoeuropean from "swelō". Also "Helios" which means the sun comes from the same root, the indoeuropean "sāwélios". Aurora polaris in greek is "Selas". El is the light.
The aspirated marks, where introduced during the Hellenistic period, together with the seperation of words and the small letters. The aspirated marks are no longer used since 1980-1981 for simplification.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Hellas means light and stone. Las is used in other words today as a compound meaning stone. For instance "Latomeio" which broken down is the stone and the incision, and it means the quarry.
El is written with the aspirated mark of "daseia" meaning that there was another letter preceding "E". The Sigma. In greek "Selini" is the moon, the root is indoeuropean from "swelō". Also "Helios" which means the sun comes from the same root, the indoeuropean "sāwélios". Aurora polaris in greek is "Selas". El is the light.
The aspirated marks, where introduced during the Hellenistic period, together with the seperation of words and the small letters. The aspirated marks are no longer used since 1980-1981 for simplification.

Can you cite some linguists that support this explanation with certainty?

[spitfire]

Can you cite some linguists that support this explanation with certainty?

We know that Ἑλλοί (Helloi) were also known as Σελλοί (Selloi) and that they were the people of the area where the mythological son of Defkalion, the Hellene, founded his kingdom. You can also see the same aspirated mark used in Ἑλλοί and the letter that precedes the "E" in the Σελλοί.
As for the indoeuropean root "swelō", the meaning is glare.

What linguists?

[Amphipolis]

Correct spitfire. What are the greek thoughts on this?

I think it's silly to have a cliché debate when none of us is willing to watch this 10-episodes documentary. At least I'm not. A couple of weeks ago, I DID bother to watch half of the first episode and it was very... Turkish (?!?), far worse than what I remembered or expected. Nevertheless, I doubt the rest 9 1/2 episodes were in the same mood. I had seen one or two episodes, or smaller parts back then.

I can comment or discuss specific or smaller parts if you're interested.

[Soldier of Macedon]

We know that Ἑλλοί (Helloi) were also known as Σελλοί (Selloi) and that they were the people of the area where the mythological son of Defkalion, the Hellene, founded his kingdom. You can also see the same aspirated mark used in Ἑλλοί and the letter that precedes the "E" in the Σελλοί.
As for the indoeuropean root "swelō", the meaning is glare.

What linguists?

You made the statement. Now back it up by citing some linguists that support that explanation with certainty rather than being evasive, which, to be honest, is a progressively revealing characteristic of yours that is beginning to annoy me.

[spitfire]

You made the statement. Now back it up by citing some linguists that support that explanation with certainty rather than being evasive, which, to be honest, is a progressively revealing characteristic of yours that is beginning to annoy me.

I know that you are annoyed, It's been noticable since the begining.

Why don't you give another explanation then? Let's say that the explanation I gave does not stand up to your standards (which is rather silly to speak of a standard, for someone who has claimed that the the word milise is jewish, not having the slightest idea from where the word stems, or what tense this word is in) and give us your explanation.

It's pretty obvious what the word means, but you'll have to know some greek and how greek work.
So, here's your chance to give us another explanaton.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I know that you are annoyed, It's been noticable since the begining.

No, not from the beginning, just recently.

Why don't you give another explanation then?

I don't have another explanation. I just want to know if you can corroborate it with sources from people who actually are linguists (as opposed to yourself).

......for someone who has claimed that the the word milise is jewish, not having the slightest idea from where the word stems, or what tense this word is in) and give us your explanation.

First, I didn't say it was Jewish, I said I read that it came from a Semitic Hebrew language. Second, if your intent was to somehow discredit me by referencing a post I made over 5 years ago when I first began to learn about the complexities of linguistics, then you've just exhibited another moronic trait. Third, unlike yourself, I am happy to concede where I was wrong or when I cannot back up my assertions (case in point, I don't recall the source I read which led me to that statement so long ago and consequently have no desire to pursue that line of thought at this time). Now, just to make it clear, it doesn't bother me in the slightest if you are correct about the word Hellas. I won't lose any sleep over it. However, given that this is the third time I am asking you the same question, with your next response I expect you to either cite some sources or admit you don't have any.

[spitfire]

No, not from the beginning, just recently.

I don't have another explanation. I just want to know if you can corroborate it with sources from people who actually are linguists (as opposed to yourself).

First, I didn't say it was Jewish, I said I read that it came from a Semitic Hebrew language. Second, if your intent was to somehow discredit me by referencing a post I made over 5 years ago when I first began to learn about the complexities of linguistics, then you've just exhibited another moronic trait. Third, unlike yourself, I am happy to concede where I was wrong or when I cannot back up my assertions (case in point, I don't recall the source I read which led me to that statement so long ago and consequently have no desire to pursue that line of thought at this time). Now, just to make it clear, it doesn't bother me in the slightest if you are correct about the word Hellas. I won't lose any sleep over it. However, given that this is the third time I am asking you the same question, with your next response I expect you to either cite some sources or admit you don't have any.

FYI "milise" comes from omilia (ομιλία) which means speech. The verb is μιλώ (milo) or ομιλώ (omilo) which means I speak, milise (μίλησε) is a past tense. It's basic school knowledge. The same for Hellas.
The source is the greek language itself. You are not expected to think otherwise because you think of languages as a simplistic system of signs. This is not the case with greek.

But I guess I'm not a linguist, so my saying means nothing. Well El come from Sel as I pointed out earlier and las means stone. There are many examples for both words.
Now give me a linguist that gives another explanation. Prove me wrong and I'll accept it.

[Soldier of Macedon]

You are not expected to think otherwise because you think of languages as a simplistic system of signs.

Don't presume to know what I think when you're incapable of supporting your own assertions with the works of people who actually study and engage in linguistics for a living.

But I guess I'm not a linguist, so my saying means nothing.

I didn't say that. And spare me the self-victimisation, it's boring.

Now give me a linguist that gives another explanation. Prove me wrong and I'll accept it.

You still don't get it, do you? When a person makes a statement, the onus is on them to prove it. Not the other way around. The noun 'Hellas' is not obscure. There are hundreds of books written by linguists relating to the etymology of words in different languages. Instead of either referencing some of them to corroborate your point or conceding that you aren't aware of any that do, you've proceeded to dance around the question in the hope that I will eventually stop asking. The topic is not dear to me and if you happen to be right it won't change my life aside from having discovered something I was hitherto unaware of. But I have tolerated your evasiveness for far too long and now feel compelled to follow through on the matter. You've opened this door, and now we will walk through it whether you like it or not. In the interest of self-preservation on this forum, in your next response on this thread you will either provide some sources from linguists to back up your statement or you will admit that you have no such sources. And if you're thinking of dodging my request again, just try me.

[spitfire]

Don't presume to know what I think when you're incapable of supporting your own assertions with the works of people who actually study and engage in linguistics for a living.

I didn't say that. And spare me the self-victimisation, it's boring.

You still don't get it, do you? When a person makes a statement, the onus is on them to prove it. Not the other way around. The noun 'Hellas' is not obscure. There are hundreds of books written by linguists relating to the etymology of words in different languages. Instead of either referencing some of them to corroborate your point or conceding that you aren't aware of any that do, you've proceeded to dance around the question in the hope that I will eventually stop asking. The topic is not dear to me and if you happen to be right it won't change my life aside from having discovered something I was hitherto unaware of. But I have tolerated your evasiveness for far too long and now feel compelled to follow through on the matter. You've opened this door, and now we will walk through it whether you like it or not. In the interest of self-preservation on this forum, in your next response you will either provide some sources from linguists to back up your statement or you will admit that you have no such sources. And if you're thinking of dodging my request again, just try me.

I don't have to presume what you know since it's been proven that you don't know in the case of "milise". That's a fact.
Another fact is that you haven't the foggiest idea of how the greek language works.

I gave you examples of the meaning of the word. There are other examples too, in fact there is a ton of them.

Instead of trying to bully me, I suggest you start learning greek. This will help you immensely with linguistics.

My quote stands. Show me why this is wrong and I'll accept it. You are the one making an onus about this not being right. I gave my explanation, I gave examples of it, now give me yours.

[Philosopher]

My quote stands. Show me why this is wrong and I'll accept it. You are the one making an onus about this not being right. I gave my explanation, I gave examples of it, now give me yours.

To be fair, Spitfire, SoM never wrote you were wrong or that the word Hellas does not mean what you claim it means. He asked for a citation.

[spitfire]

To be fair, Spitfire, SoM never wrote you were wrong or that the word Hellas does not mean what you claim it means. He asked for a citation.

Correction. Not just any citation, but a citation from a linguist. And of course by doing so is denying Homer, Herodotus and as far as the greek mythology if you ask me.
Let's ask Defkalion why he threw rocks giving birth to the Hellene. Maybe he can explain it linguistically. Or maybe let's ask the Hellene why his people were called Σειλλοί.
Or better yet, let's find all the words that have the "El" and ask them why do they carry the meaning of light, one way or the other.
And finally let's not bother with the indo-european root of this, as it is not what linguists do.

If what I say is not in linguistic terms, then you are welcome to prove it wrong. You see, there is no point in using science whenever it suits us, but not whenever it does not.
It is not based on nothing, it has a base, a linguistic one. On the contrary, by saying that it is wrong without giving an explanation is what makes it unscientific.

I'm still here, prove me wrong.

[Philosopher]

I'm still here, prove me wrong.

You still don't get it. Your analysis may be right. That is not the issue.

He is asking for a citation. If you do not have a citation, then state "I do not have a citation and I cannot independently verify the etymology of the word".