Huge uproar in Greece over a tv documentary called 1821 (Greek independance)

[spitfire]

Hellenic sounds more better a mystic sounding name.

No it doesn't. What gave you that idea? That's how you say greek in greek. Hellenic.
From light and stone as explained by me somewhere. Or maybe because we are stoned from too much light, who knows...

[Philosopher]

Ethnos in greek means nation.

Yes, I know.

I was reffering to the title of the documentary 1821 a birth of a nation. If you watch the documentary it talks about the re-birth of a nation, an "ethnos" as it is in greek.

Therefore the documentary is trying to present something, but it fails (not always) because it is stated that this was a re-birth and not a birth. I'm sure you can see this even at the ending.

I have misunderstood your post or I am very confused. Here you wrote:

Therefore the documentary is trying to present something, but it fails (not always) because it is stated that this was a re-birth and not a birth. I'm sure you can see this even at the ending.

So the documentary states it is a re-birth of the Greek ethnos?

Here you seem to suggest the title states birth of a nation, and not a re-birth:

Starting from the title. A birth of a nation? If they wanted to be sincere and accurate to what they say in the documentary, a re-birth of a nation would be appropriate.

So the documentary is about the birth or re-birth of the nation? And your objection is to the (ethnic) connection to the ancient Hellenes?

The connection to the Hellenes is a giant leap in time.

I have not see the documentary, so I am in the dark.

[spitfire]

The title says 1821 a birth of a nation. It concludes that it was a re-birth. And it explains why.

Naming this nation Hellenes is valid despite the giant leap in time. Should the greeks today be called Romioi? Probably a nearer connection, but you know how these things go. Cultural continuation through the language and so on.
At least that's what it is stated. Especially the ending. See it. It talks about paparigopoulos and his view and makes a connecton to the land.
So it is about a re-birth and not a birth.

[Philosopher]

Naming this nation Hellenes is valid despite the giant leap in time. Should the greeks today be called Romioi? Probably a nearer connection, but you know how these things go. Cultural continuation through the language and so on.
At least that's what it is stated. Especially the ending. See it. It talks about paparigopoulos and his view and makes a connecton to the land.
So it is about a re-birth and not a birth.

Thank you Spitfire. I do not want to splinter this thread, but I would like to ask you what are your thoughts on this website?

http://ancientgreekdna.blogspot.de/

Do you think today's Greeks share more than a linguistic continuity with the ancient Hellenes?

How ethnically mixed do you think modern day Greece is? By mixed, I do not mean immigrants living in Greece. I mean Greek admixture with Albanians, Turks, Macedonians, et al? Do you believe the above referenced website is accurate in its claims of Greek racial purity?

[spitfire]

Thank you Spitfire. I do not want to splinter this thread, but I would like to ask you what are your thoughts on this website?

http://ancientgreekdna.blogspot.de/

Do you think today's Greeks share more than a linguistic continuity with the ancient Hellenes?

How ethnically mixed do you think modern day Greece is? By mixed, I do not mean immigrants living in Greece. I mean Greek admixture with Albanians, Turks, Macedonians, et al? Do you believe the above referenced website is accurate in its claims of Greek racial purity?

I'm trying to avoid DNA claims and other meaningless nationalistic stupidities. Therefore, I'm sorry, I will skip this website and answer directly to the second part of your question.

That mixing of people eventually absorbed those people into Hellenism. For instance, Arvanites. No one ever mentions why Arvanites spoke albanian (sort of) but used greek syntax. It's because of integration. From that time to today they integrated well, as it was their choice.

Now, I myself have origins from the south of Epirus. Perhaps, sometime in the past my ancestors had direct connections to the Albanians. Who knows?
I dance the tsamiko dance, but I don't relate this to the past.

The best way to describe this for myself, connected or not to other people, is in the words of a famous revolutionary person during the revolution of 1821; I don't care about the origin. The origin is me!

[spitfire]

Philosopher, what do you think of this song? Would you say that it's good greek bouzouki music?

ΚΑΖΑΝΤΖΙΔΗΣ- �*ΡΙΝ ΜΟΥ ΦΥΓΕΙΣ ΓΛΥΚΙΑ ΜΟΥ - YouTube

[Amphipolis]

Starting from the title. A birth of a nation? If they wanted to be sincere and accurate to what they say in the documentary, a re-birth of a nation would be appropriate.

I've read this before, but it's not true. The title was not "1821: The Birth of a Nation". It was simply "1821".

[spitfire]

I've read this before, but it's not true. The title was not "1821: The Birth of a Nation". It was simply "1821".

1821 without the birth of a nation became after the "uproar".
In fact it was the birth of a nation/state. And the related books and DVD's also say that.

I remember it well, it wasn't so long ago. They even tried to ease things, became ridicules for that in the entire country.

SKAI channel. you can't get worse than that...

Check it out.

http://1821.skai.gr/main/broadcast_ep9

[Amphipolis]

Let me rephrase the question. When Greece declared its independence in 1821, do you believe it was a pure Greek state? If not, what percentage do you believe the Greek state was Greek?

Do you believe that non-Greeks like Albanians, Turks, and Macedonians (among others) have significantly contributed to the ethnic stock of modern Greece? Or do you believe Greeks and the Greek state are pure?

You're referring to the ethnic-mix of Greece when it first gained autonomy and then independence around late 1820s, early 1830s. Macedonia was not part of it (until 1910s) and this was roughly the southern half of today�s Greece with some of the Central Aegean Islands and without Crete, Thessaly, Ionian or Eastern Aegean Islands.
It had a population of less than 1 million people.

The percentage of Arvanites is estimated mostly by foreign authors between 10-15% but not exactly within those borders or exactly at that decade. The first censuses that recorded them were much later (1879 and 1907). Their percentage is dropping (less than 4% and then less than 2%) as they�re assimilated and also new territories (Thessaly, Ionian Islands) are added in the censuses.

During an older research I remember finding a detail about the Muslims that survived and remained in Rumelia (as Peloponnesus was fully cleansed). I couldn�t find this again, but it was a small percentage and I�m not sure they would be ethnic-Turks, though I don�t know why, how and for how long they stayed in Greece.

[George S.]

spitfire you are glossing my comments what did i say hellenic has a certain ring to it but its a wasted name why because hellenism ended with alexander.I'm right any revivals adaptation of the word hellene or hellenic won't change anything.It doesn't mean the same thing as it did 2000 years ago.It could be a ploy by the gocvt to fool the populace with all those terms hellas,hellenism etc.

[spitfire]

Hellenism ended with Alexander?

There was a Hellenistic period right after that. And then the Romans came, they kept and adopted Hellenism, It's called the Greco-Roman civilization, then Christianity came into play, then the Roman empire split in two, up to 1453 where Hellenism was present, all the time in the culture. Then the Ottoman empire came still Hellenism was present in culture, and then the newly formed state of Greece was created.

There is a link, despite the giant leap in time in terms of the name. A Hellene might have undergone several meanings during all that time but it was there.

And from that it was decided to create a state under that name, because Hellenic culture was present all the time. That's a fact, and it is stated even in the documentary. As I said, they failed to tease because they fell into their own trap.

[Philosopher]

Philosopher, what do you think of this song? Would you say that it's good greek bouzouki music?

ΚΑΖΑΝΤΖΙΔΗΣ- �*ΡΙΝ ΜΟΥ ΦΥΓΕΙΣ ΓΛΥΚΙΑ ΜΟΥ - YouTube

This is obviously an indication of Asian Minor influence in Greek music. The instrument is from Asia Minor and the structure and arraignment of the music sounds Turkish.

I would classify it as bouzouki music, though I am not sure if it really qualifies as good Greek bouzouki music. It is an example of another adoption of Turkish culture into Greek arts.

[spitfire]

Well, not even close.

It is one of the 108 recorded (maybe there are more) songs that are from old bollywood movies, turned into greek.

Aye Chand Kal Jo Aana Lata Mangeshkar Film Devta (1954) Music C.Ramchandra / Rajinder Krishan. - YouTube

So it's Indian.
These songs are very popular songs in greece of the 50's and the 60's in their greek version ofcourse.

My point here is that many things can be assimilated.

[Philosopher]

Spitfire, I may be wrong about the origin of the music, but the Bouzouki is an Asian Minor musical instrument, and the word itself is of Turkish origin. So regardless of how you look at it, there is still an adaption of Asian Minor musical instruments.

[spitfire]

An origin? I'm not so sure. Bouzouki is influenced from both the east and the west. And it became bouzouki when in greece, Asia minor included.

Now let's imagine that in a hundred years from now, the turks so fond of bouzouki, they take the instrument and make minor changes to it in order to fit it more in turkish music. And then they call it tourzouki. Or tourzouk.
Would you say that it's a greek instrument? 'Cause I wouldn't.

Who invented the wheel?