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  • osiris
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 1969

    #16
    There are many forms of pressure sometimes a suggestion can be subtle and yet menacing enough to make one do what they might otherwise not do. Ski is definately Macedonian but was it as widespread as it is now I cannot say outside the villages I know personally. I have also noticed that the leadership of the original VMRO had very few surnames ending in ski was that representative of the general population I think it was. In the ten or so villages that I am familar with on both sides of the current border the suffix ski would be less than ten percent of the original ottoman era family names now in the republic it is practically one hundred percent. I urge people who still have grandparents who have some knowledge about their local histories to find out what the situation was like in their area

    Comment

    • Soldier of Macedon
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 13675

      #17
      Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
      I know ethnic Albanians who were given "ski" endings so I am pretty sure there was an agenda in Macedonia at one point in time.
      There was indeed an agenda, and it was merely a process formalisation. It took place in other countries also, so nothing odd there, especially given that many people in Macedonia didn't have formalised surnames at the time. Not all ethnic Albanians in Macedonia had 'ski' suffixed surnames. Of those that you know, how many were denied the right to keep their own surnames (or patrynoms), or revert back to them?
      I think it is divisive if people somehow equate it with being more Macedonian.
      Anybody who does that is an ignorant fool.
      In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

      Comment

      • Vangelovski
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 8533

        #18
        Claiming that having 'ski' on the end of a surname is necessary in order to meet some 'standard' of Macedonianess is as ludicrous, in my view, as some who have claimed that knowledge of the Macedonian language is necessary in order to be a Macedonian. But all of this raises an impossible question (one which has been discussed on this forum in the past) - what is a Macedonian?
        If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

        The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

        Comment

        • Risto the Great
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 15660

          #19
          Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
          what is a Macedonian?
          Me.
          Of course.
          Risto the Great
          MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
          "Holding my breath for the revolution."

          Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

          Comment

          • Soldier of Macedon
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 13675

            #20
            Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
            But all of this raises an impossible question (one which has been discussed on this forum in the past) - what is a Macedonian?
            I don't see it as an impossible question. Here are my thoughts from another thread regarding the indicators of ethnicity:

            Here is what wiki says, citing a number of sources; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_group Let's define it a little more specifically here. What are the key indicators of ethnicity? Below are examples applied to the Macedonians, in both the Macedonian and Greek states. Primary Indicators Language is most


            Primary Indicators

            Language is most significant, one of the very foundations of ethnicity is the native tongue of a people. The native language of an individual or an individual's family, as passed on through generation to generation, without the requirement of an education. One example is the native language of the Macedonians in the Macedonian state and that of the Macedonians in the Greek state, which is the same, the difference relating only to the official languages of the state and church.

            Culture refers to a commonality in traditions, habits and characteristics, and is also demostrated by common phrases, beliefs, etc. Some simple examples would be the traditional dances and songs that are shared by the Macedonians in both the Macedonian and Greek states, but which are foreign to the non-Macedonians in the Greek state.

            Ancestry is descending from the same people, for example, the Macedonians of the Greek state and the Macedonians of the Macedonian state have the same origins, their grandfathers, great grandfathers, etc share all the primary indicators.

            Kinship, meaning relatives and friends that share the same primary indicators, or, through another dimension the case of the divided Macedonian people on both sides of the artificial border of 'northern Greece'.


            Secondary Indicators

            Geography indicates descent from a particular region or greater region that has a shared historical commonality relative to the native population. Due to the Greek state occupying and absorbing a large portion of Macedonian territory in the 20th century, and their policy of settling in excess of 600,000 fleeing Christians from Asia, this particular indicator can be manipulated, but only to a certain degree. The people of Skopje, which is in the extreme north of the Macedonian state, are still geographically closer to the geographically Macedonian city of Salonika located in the Greek state, than are the people of Crete, the Peloponnese and even Athens. In addition to this, they have lived in the Macedonian region for centuries as opposed to the case of the new settlers, who have not yet lived a century in Macedonia. Furthermore, prior to the Greek usurpation of Macedonian territories, the Macedonians in Macedonia were relatively free to communicate, congregate and live among each other in their territory, which allowed for a continuation of commonalities in all primary indicators.

            Religion also plays a strong factor but it is not an exclusive necessity, because commonality in culture trascends religious affiliation whereas commonality in religion without the primary indicators is of limited significance. For example, while the Macedonians of the Islamic faith may share some similarities with Muslims from Asia, their culture is largely the same as Macedonians of the Christian faith. Similarly, while the Macedonians in the Greek state are (by force) a part of the Greek Orthodox Church, on all levels the primary indicators demonstrate an obviously closer proximity to the Macedonians of the Macedonian Orthodox Church, as opposed to their Greek co-relgionists.
            In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

            Comment

            • makedonche
              Senior Member
              • Oct 2008
              • 3242

              #21
              what is a Macedonian?
              Me tooooo!!!!!
              On Delchev's sarcophagus you can read the following inscription: "We swear the future generations to bury these sacred bones in the capital of Independent Macedonia. August 1923 Illinden"

              Comment

              • Bill77
                Senior Member
                • Oct 2009
                • 4545

                #22
                Originally posted by osiris View Post
                There are many forms of pressure sometimes a suggestion can be subtle and yet menacing enough to make one do what they might otherwise not do. Ski is definately Macedonian but was it as widespread as it is now I cannot say outside the villages I know personally. I have also noticed that the leadership of the original VMRO had very few surnames ending in ski was that representative of the general population I think it was. In the ten or so villages that I am familar with on both sides of the current border the suffix ski would be less than ten percent of the original ottoman era family names now in the republic it is practically one hundred percent. I urge people who still have grandparents who have some knowledge about their local histories to find out what the situation was like in their area
                My Fathers Great Grand father's surname was Filipovic which was given to him by the Serbs. (Which was given to him as his fathers name was Filip)

                The surname"Filipovic" disappeared from our family history after WW2. (I would assume as it was some type of reward from Tito because the Macedonians took up arms and joined the Partizans). Then my family reverted to their original name.


                Regarding the Albanians having surnames ending with "SKI", according to my Grand father the story goes,
                After WW2, They were given an option, to add the suffix "SKI" on the end of their surname or take away their rights of entering a mosque. Its a simplistic answer given to me by my Grand father. It did not explain to me why this happened. My mother confirmed this story as she had an Uncle (Tetin) that was a Turk or Albanian that had to change his surname in order to be allowed to enter a mosque and worship.

                Mabe it was the opposite reason to the Macedonians, where in this case, Tito punished the Albanians for taking up arms against the Partizans (which my Grandfather lost both his legs fighting what they called the "Beli kapsi")
                Last edited by Bill77; 03-09-2011, 10:00 PM.
                http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=120873#post120873

                Comment

                • Soldier of Macedon
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 13675

                  #23
                  Originally posted by bill77
                  The surname"Filipovic" disappeared from our family history after WW2. (I would assume as it was some type of reward from Tito because the Macedonians took up arms and joined the Partizans). Then my family reverted to their original name.
                  That would be an improbable assumption, especially the way you've written it.
                  In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                  Comment

                  • Vangelovski
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 8533

                    #24
                    Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                    I don't see it as an impossible question. Here are my thoughts from another thread regarding the indicators of ethnicity:

                    http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...ead.php?t=2333


                    Primary Indicators

                    Language is most significant, one of the very foundations of ethnicity is the native tongue of a people. The native language of an individual or an individual's family, as passed on through generation to generation, without the requirement of an education. One example is the native language of the Macedonians in the Macedonian state and that of the Macedonians in the Greek state, which is the same, the difference relating only to the official languages of the state and church.

                    Culture refers to a commonality in traditions, habits and characteristics, and is also demostrated by common phrases, beliefs, etc. Some simple examples would be the traditional dances and songs that are shared by the Macedonians in both the Macedonian and Greek states, but which are foreign to the non-Macedonians in the Greek state.

                    Ancestry is descending from the same people, for example, the Macedonians of the Greek state and the Macedonians of the Macedonian state have the same origins, their grandfathers, great grandfathers, etc share all the primary indicators.

                    Kinship, meaning relatives and friends that share the same primary indicators, or, through another dimension the case of the divided Macedonian people on both sides of the artificial border of 'northern Greece'.


                    Secondary Indicators

                    Geography indicates descent from a particular region or greater region that has a shared historical commonality relative to the native population. Due to the Greek state occupying and absorbing a large portion of Macedonian territory in the 20th century, and their policy of settling in excess of 600,000 fleeing Christians from Asia, this particular indicator can be manipulated, but only to a certain degree. The people of Skopje, which is in the extreme north of the Macedonian state, are still geographically closer to the geographically Macedonian city of Salonika located in the Greek state, than are the people of Crete, the Peloponnese and even Athens. In addition to this, they have lived in the Macedonian region for centuries as opposed to the case of the new settlers, who have not yet lived a century in Macedonia. Furthermore, prior to the Greek usurpation of Macedonian territories, the Macedonians in Macedonia were relatively free to communicate, congregate and live among each other in their territory, which allowed for a continuation of commonalities in all primary indicators.

                    Religion also plays a strong factor but it is not an exclusive necessity, because commonality in culture trascends religious affiliation whereas commonality in religion without the primary indicators is of limited significance. For example, while the Macedonians of the Islamic faith may share some similarities with Muslims from Asia, their culture is largely the same as Macedonians of the Christian faith. Similarly, while the Macedonians in the Greek state are (by force) a part of the Greek Orthodox Church, on all levels the primary indicators demonstrate an obviously closer proximity to the Macedonians of the Macedonian Orthodox Church, as opposed to their Greek co-relgionists.
                    SoM,

                    I think there are problems with all of those indicators - not all Macedonians meet the same ones, and in fact, many Macedonians do not meet any of them with the exeption of ancestry/kingship (I don't see a difference between the two). However, ancestry/kingship still poses the same problem - if they are descendent from Macedonians, what made those earlier people 'Macedonian'?

                    In terms of language and culture, diaspora Macedonians hardly share either with Macedonians in Macedonia. Even among Macedonians within Macedonia, there are large cultural differences between different regions, part of which has been covered on this forum.

                    In terms of geography, diaspora Macedonians cannot meaningfully claim that they share it either with Macedonians in the homeland or other Macedonians across the world.

                    Finally, the threads on this very forum demonstrate that we do not share religious beliefs, even among supposed Macedonian Orthodox Christians..

                    And yet at the end of the day, we still know a Macedonian from a non-Macedonian...
                    Last edited by Vangelovski; 03-09-2011, 10:57 PM.
                    If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                    The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                    Comment

                    • osiris
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 1969

                      #25
                      Here are some stats according to my fathers oral historical knowledge of our area. My fathers village dragosh over 100 families. There were 4 ski and 3 n suffixes the rest were ov or ev. My mothers lazhets 150 plus families only one from ski and they were from buf. Surrounding villages opsorina 50 plus families all ended in v. Bitusha 70 houses only one ended in ski and even here in Australia despite the imposition of Greek names the ski ending was used for that family. In sveta petka one ski. Gradeshnitsa no skis
                      Velusjhina no ski. Kanina there were no ski only the martyred partisan kloe povov becameKOLE Kaninski His Serbian era name was Todorovic tha name he finished his law degree in Belgrade today on his grave and statute he is Todorovski a name derived from his Serbian one not the one he was known by in his village even during Serbian times
                      In klabuchischa there were two families with ski. Have a look at the memorial to the illindendead from the selo of tsapari. They are all except one n ov or ev. Today in tsapari nearly all have ski except three n and ten or so with v. I think the famous oz cricket player lenny Pascoe who's name was paskovitch I think that John gastev the oz footballer is also from tsapari so there may be others abroad who I don't know about and cannot comment.
                      Last edited by osiris; 03-09-2011, 11:07 PM.

                      Comment

                      • Risto the Great
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 15660

                        #26
                        Always nice to have an oral history.
                        I can certainly confirm one family from Bitusha ended in "ev".
                        Naturally most of their children are "pure" Greek now.
                        Risto the Great
                        MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                        "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                        Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                        Comment

                        • Risto the Great
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 15660

                          #27
                          Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
                          And yet at the end of the day, we still know a Macedonian from a non-Macedonian...
                          Or do we?
                          If you were a Turkish speaking Christian who made a sign of the cross whenever you passed an Orthodox Patriarchist church ... you were Greek.
                          If you are a Cypriot .... you are a Greek.

                          Macedonians have a very stringent criteria that is extremely restrictive, yet clearly more honest in many ways. .... Maybe too honest.

                          An ethnic Albanian of Macedonia raised on a diet of Macedonian TV would speak and write better Macedonian than me yet would never be allowed to feel Macedonian in Macedonia.

                          An interesting dilemma.
                          Risto the Great
                          MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                          "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                          Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                          Comment

                          • Prolet
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2009
                            • 5241

                            #28
                            Bulgarian Bozidar Dimitrov once said that anybody who's name ends with a SKI must be Bulgarian, then again we've seen alot of Polish People and some Germans that have names that end in SKI, even Americans too.
                            МАКЕДОНЕЦ си кога кавал ќе ти ја распара душата,зурла ќе ти го раскине срцето,кога секое влакно од кожата ќе ти се наежи кога ќе видиш шеснаесеткрако сонце,кога до коска ќе те заболи кога ќе слушнеш ПЈРМ,кога немаш ни за леб,а полн си во душата затоа што ја сакаш МАКЕДОНИЈА. МАКЕДОНИЈА во срце те носиме.

                            Comment

                            • Soldier of Macedon
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 13675

                              #29
                              Prolet, Dimitrov is a fruit-loop and his opinion on such matters is irrelevant. As an observer I would be asking why you would even cite his stupidity in this discussion at all, but then again, much of what you write (like your apologetic views concerning Gruevski) seems to belong in the same 'realm' of thinking. Maybe it's just you.
                              In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                              Comment

                              • sila
                                Junior Member
                                • Aug 2010
                                • 5

                                #30
                                Originally posted by osiris View Post
                                Here are some stats according to my fathers oral historical knowledge of our area. My mothers lazhets 150 plus families only one from ski and they were from buf.
                                Hello osiris. Its My family that was from Lazec, but originally from Buf. Just a minor corection, our surname did not end with ski, but ov. It was Shapazov
                                I recently went to Buf for my first time to see where my ancestors came from. The locals showed me the two house's which belonged to my ancestors. And even till this day, the locals call it and only know it as "na shapazovci kujkite". The same situation is in Lazec. When they asked me "na chi si ti" they had no idea when i gave them my surname. But as soon as i told them "na Shapazoj" they instantly recognised who my ancestors were.

                                The very first Shapazov that left Lazec to come to Australia was my uncle who was the eldest of my fathers generation. It was only on his arrival down under, for some reason unknown to me, he changed his surname here in Australia. After settling in Australia, he assisted bringing the rest of his brothers one by one. Then these brothers had to accept the new surname. But 1 decade later, the younger cousins made a move to Australia but they kept their surname Shapazov. Such as the former Preston Makedonia player Johny Shapazov.

                                Comment

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