Taking a principled position

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  • Risto the Great
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 15659

    Taking a principled position

    Well we have discussed objective or relative morals on another thread and I don't want to visit that here. Each of us have varying degrees of understanding of matters as they relate to Macedonia. To the extent we understand the current state of affairs in Macedonia, each of us draws conclusions.

    The problem I seem to see is that most of us know that Macedonia is going in the wrong direction and the leaders of Macedonia have been playing games with the Macedonian people.

    As soon as one develops an understanding of the sovereignty destroying framework agreement and interim agreement etc, there is quite simply no way forward for Macedonia without a wholesale re-engineering of ideology in Macedonia.

    I am starting to notice a polarisation on this forum between some very angry and frustrated people who believe they know how ideologically corrupt Macedonia is and those who feel that Macedonia simply needs more time to resolve its problems. That things will "sort themselves out in the end". Personally, I am one of the people growing more frustrated by the utter disrespect shown to our Macedonian identity and ancestors.

    I am more and more bewildered by people who denounce the interim agreement yet support the ICJ court proceedings, or the new flag or whatever else goes hand in hand with Macedonia's capitulations of the past and present. Some have suggested that there are varying degrees of "ideological awareness" and people should be encouraged rather than castigated for their lack of ideological awareness. Unfortunately, many people should know better, they don't and some are leaders of Macedonian communities, some lead Macedonia, some are involved with Macedonian organisations etc.

    The reality is that some are going against Macedonia's interests for personal gain, others are doing it out of utter ignorance.

    Once an interested party immerses himself into the recent history of Macedonia, there can only be one conclusion and that is the progress towards the inevitable demise of Macedonia. I ask our forum participants to consider the positions they take on Macedonian matters. If they accept that actions undertaken to date have been detrimental to Macedonian Cause, then actions or positions being considered for the future should embrace or forge the Cause and always be considered with reference to impacts on the Macedonian Cause. A quick way to assess the impact of a proposed initiative is to envision the entire nation embracing it. For example, if the entire country is forced to wave the new (compromised) Macedonian flag every Monday morning, what is the message? What if we compare that with all Macedonians waving the original (uncompromised) Macedonian flag every Monday morning? What would that say about the spirit of the Macedonian people? Will it translate into a good thing? Is it irrelevant? You be the judge.

    If you disagree with the interim agreement, it means you disagree with the new flag. Taking a principled position on the matter would mean you must reject the new flag. Any other position on the matter is corrupt. In the same fashion, Macedonians who reject FYROM must also reject the interim agreement as well as the ICJ case.

    Quite simply, it is a case of joining the dots and it is getting frustrating reading about the absolutely illogical conclusions some people are making due to corrupt ideologies they have embraced. There is always room for opinions and ways of addressing problems, but ignoring the fundamental truths about Macedonia's problems and capitulations is a guaranteed way to ensure the same misery in Macedonia is perpetuated forever until its demise.
    Risto the Great
    MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
    "Holding my breath for the revolution."

    Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com
  • makedonche
    Senior Member
    • Oct 2008
    • 3242

    #2
    RTG
    There's an expression which goes like this ......."Getting caught up in the thick of thin things." .........which I think sheds some light!
    On Delchev's sarcophagus you can read the following inscription: "We swear the future generations to bury these sacred bones in the capital of Independent Macedonia. August 1923 Illinden"

    Comment

    • George S.
      Senior Member
      • Aug 2009
      • 10116

      #3
      RTG i have to say i agree with you & you make some valid points.
      "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
      GOTSE DELCEV

      Comment

      • Pelister
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 2742

        #4
        I agree RTG.

        The Republic is on a one way train ticket heading toward extinction if the current 'processes' we are currently engaged in continue.

        The only way to change direction is to end the negotiations immediately, and begin the process of being admitted to the United Nations under our name.

        There is nothing logical about Gruevski, or the 'negotiations' or his statements or his intentions for our name and our people. He is just one among a growing number of 'Macedonians' who are exploiting the situation for maximum political and personal advantage, preying on the good will and trust of the Macedonian people by shitting all over their sacrifices, over their ancestors, the elderly and for what? I hate the snake, and hope someone punches his lights out in one of the back door board rooms he has set aside for our destruction.
        Last edited by Pelister; 02-27-2011, 12:13 AM.

        Comment

        • Vangelovski
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 8532

          #5
          Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
          Quite simply, it is a case of joining the dots and it is getting frustrating reading about the absolutely illogical conclusions some people are making due to corrupt ideologies they have embraced. There is always room for opinions and ways of addressing problems, but ignoring the fundamental truths about Macedonia's problems and capitulations is a guaranteed way to ensure the same misery in Macedonia is perpetuated forever until its demise.
          A demise which is nearly complete. All it requires is for Macedonians to stay silent or ideologically confused.
          If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

          The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

          Comment

          • sydney
            Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 390

            #6
            who is going to lead us out of the fog?

            Comment

            • Blagojce
              Member
              • Mar 2010
              • 232

              #7
              Originally posted by sydney View Post
              who is going to lead us out of the fog?
              The same people who initiated the Ilinden Uprising, it will be the Macedonians with a determination to make a change in the world.

              Comment

              • indigen
                Senior Member
                • May 2009
                • 1558

                #8
                Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
                A demise which is nearly complete. All it requires is for Macedonians to stay silent or ideologically confused.
                A fate similar to Serbs of Kosovo is on the CARDS if quick and DRASTIC political, ideological and organisational action is not taken soon to avert, redress and reverse many of these negative occurrences and scenarios of past, present and future.

                Comment

                • indigen
                  Senior Member
                  • May 2009
                  • 1558

                  #9
                  Some excerpts and quotes from another thread I think may be relevant to this topic.

                  Indigen: Bez razlika koj, kako i zoshto ja "iniciral" (zapochnal) ovaa akcija, pak taa kje sluzhi kako diverzija zatoa shto vo ova vreme treba da se organizira OTPOR na ona shto vekje NI VISI NAD GLAVA - PROMENA NA IMETO NA DRZHAVATA MAKEDONIJA (i mozhebi mnogu povekje, ako e mozhno!). Taa promena na ime kje proizleze odvnatre - VO MAKEDONIJA i tamu treba da se nasochi kakva i da bila politichka energija vo segashen moment.

                  Vangelovski: AGREED! The only way to save Macedonia's name is through ending the negotiations. Other states could not care less and even those who have already recognised our correct state name will change their decisions to reflect any capitulation on Macedonia's behalf. All said, it is a useless deadend activity, made worse with the use of the symbol of shame!

                  Vangelovski: Indigen,
                  The fact that these initiatives are a diversion of energy and resources are obvious to any activist worth his while. But we’re not exactly in a discussion with people who have any experience in or understanding of activism in general, let alone activism in Macedonian affairs. I think that too is blatantly obvious. If X, however, is as young as the wise old Z makes him out to be, it would have been a good development opportunity for him nonetheless. Specifically, he would have come to see that such activities are a diversion time, energy and resources and hopefully he would have identified that the Macedonian Government itself needs to be the target of our activism. Unfortunately for X, he has chosen the wrong people to work with!


                  RTG: I am against sending emails to other countries whilst the current Macedonian Government has made it clear they are committed to compromise.

                  Here is an idea for the slave minded:

                  Send the emails to Gruevski and try to stop the capitulations.
                  Because while some here are giving half-arsed impressions of being against compromise, the Macedonian Government is 110% for compromise.

                  Why would anyone listen to the Macedonian people when the Government that represents those people (and is elected by those people) is pro compromise?

                  Macedonians in Macedonia, find more of the 100 Facebook Macedonians who went to the Kale. Change your country first before you try to change what other countries think you are doing.


                  [Indigen 02-19-2011]
                  Vo segashna politichka polozhba, po moe viduanje, akcijata [na X i kompanija] vazhi za DIVERSIJA i nema da ima nikakov rezultat! Jas normalno nakratko tolku be rekol koga bi odgovaral na slichni vakvi poraki od kogo i da se isprateni, i duri da se so ideoloshki zdravi simboli. Razlozhuvane (rationale) za ova e vo toa shto sega NAJDOBRO bi bilo da se PROTESTIRA PROTIV VLADATA na MK i nejzinata anti-Makedonksa sudska postapka vo MSP (ICJ). Vie vo Evropa najdobro ste pozicirani za toa da go storite za vreme (i vo pochetokot) na sudskiot proces i toa bi bila dobra smislena politichka akcija za pochit i shto ima da se pokazhe pred svetot deka Makedoncite ne podrzhuvaat PREDAVNICHIKI PREGOVORI i DOGOVORI. Istata takva akcija da se proshiri shirum svetot i vnatre vo Makedonija.

                  Vtoro, gi predupreduvam MTO-ovci i site drugi makedonski patrioti - aktivisti da zabrzano razmislat i organiziraat takva akcija, na kakov i da bil mozhen nachin vo postojnite politichki i organizaciiski uslovi! Vo najmala raka, da se isprati eden dobro sostaven protest memorandum ili protestni pisma i rezolucii.
                  Last edited by indigen; 02-27-2011, 07:23 AM.

                  Comment

                  • Vangelovski
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 8532

                    #10
                    Originally posted by indigen View Post

                    Vtoro, gi predupreduvam MTO-ovci i site drugi makedonski patrioti - aktivisti da zabrzano razmislat i organiziraat takva akcija, na kakov i da bil mozhen nachin vo postojnite politichki i organizaciiski uslovi! Vo najmala raka, da se isprati eden dobro sostaven protest memorandum ili protestni pisma i rezolucii.
                    Indigen,

                    Would "we" be able to count on your assistance?
                    If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                    The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                    Comment

                    • indigen
                      Senior Member
                      • May 2009
                      • 1558

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
                      Indigen,

                      Would "we" be able to count on your assistance?
                      It depends on what is implied by "assistance", my ability to assist and the action to be undertaken. My call was to existing organisations and within their abilities to undertake any of the possible actions.

                      Secondly, I am NOT (nor, like some others, do I consider myself or claim to be) a political or community "FACTOR" ("FAKTOR") and my only current political activities (and membership of Macedonian organisations) are the MTO forums. With that in mind, what can I do to help?

                      With respect,
                      I.

                      Comment

                      • Vangelovski
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 8532

                        #12
                        Originally posted by indigen View Post
                        It depends on what is implied by "assistance", my ability to assist and the action to be undertaken. My call was to existing organisations and within their abilities to undertake any of the possible actions.

                        Secondly, I am NOT (nor, like some others, do I consider myself or claim to be) a political or community "FACTOR" ("FAKTOR") and my only current political activities (and membership of Macedonian organisations) are the MTO forums. With that in mind, what can I do to help?

                        With respect,
                        I.
                        I was thinking in terms of translating a short document into Macedonian. But I'm sure that there is much more that you could provide in terms of assistance.
                        Last edited by Vangelovski; 02-27-2011, 06:32 PM.
                        If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                        The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                        Comment

                        • indigen
                          Senior Member
                          • May 2009
                          • 1558

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
                          I was thinking in terms of translating a short document into Macedonian. But I'm sure that there is much more that you could provide in terms of assistance.
                          Haha...I am inclined to think that your formal Macedonian qualifications are better than mine (which don't go higher than a few years in primary school many, many moons ago!) and thus it might be the case of the blind leading the partially blind. I would suggest you try someone like Aleksandrov or eat some humble pie and ask for assistance from some of your opponents in the "objective morality" debates who are Macedonian educated and proficient in Macedonian. I hope that when the need arises WE should ALL be able to overcome small (or even significant) personal (including political and ideological) differences for the greater common Macedonian national good (The Macedonian Cause).

                          Cheers,
                          I.

                          Comment

                          • Vangelovski
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 8532

                            #14
                            Originally posted by indigen View Post
                            Haha...I am inclined to think that your formal Macedonian qualifications are better than mine (which don't go higher than a few years in primary school many, many moons ago!) and thus it might be the case of the blind leading the partially blind. I would suggest you try someone like Aleksandrov or eat some humble pie and ask for assistance from some of your opponents in the "objective morality" debates who are Macedonian educated and proficient in Macedonian. I hope that when the need arises WE should ALL be able to overcome small (or even significant) personal (including political and ideological) differences for the greater common Macedonian national good (The Macedonian Cause).

                            Cheers,
                            I.
                            I don't have any formal Macedonian qualifications, so you're primary school beats my home school

                            If Aleksandrov is the only Macedonian in Australia that is proficient in both languages, then we have some serious human resource issues...he is already working at 200 per cent capacity on another front and hardly needs the additional task
                            If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                            The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                            Comment

                            • indigen
                              Senior Member
                              • May 2009
                              • 1558

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
                              I don't have any formal Macedonian qualifications, so you're primary school beats my home school
                              Maybe then it will be the case of the blind leading the blind? Seriously, your level is pretty good and I assumed it was better than mine.

                              If Aleksandrov is the only Macedonian in Australia that is proficient in both languages,
                              I don't think that is the case but a person having those qualities and being a politically active patriotic Macedonian was in the 1990s (and before) rare as hens teeth and probably one reason why he rose to the top. He was the one package whereas previously they had to find complementary activists to do both parts separately. It has big advantages in Macedonian Australian Community activities.

                              then we have some serious human resource issues
                              Yes, you will find that it is the case and thus we should re-evaluate how we approach Macedonians with those qualities when they appear on MTO forums or elsewhere.

                              ...he is already working at 200 per cent capacity on another front and hardly needs the additional task
                              Point taken and since I don't know what you have in mind, I withdraw that suggestion. Why don't you post the English version and see where we can take it from there?

                              Cheers,
                              I.

                              Comment

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