Objective Moral Values

[Vangelovski]

Vangelovski, SOM, RTG, Phoenix and Osiris, among others, don't you guys think ENOUGH TIME and ENERGY has been exhausted on this topic, which to me seems like a futile diversion and escapism from the political reality at hand for Macedonians in the here and now?

Secondly, I would much rather you guys got together and drafted some stern protest letters, memorandums or resolutions in OPPOSITION to the ICJ case being pursued by the VASSALS from Skopje than spending so much time on this topic (and in the process ending up even more divided).

So pochit,
Indigen

There's a time for everything Indigen Besides, a few posts on the most important questions is hardly a distraction.

I would encourage you to take a morsel of your own advice and actively pursue the matter as well, rather than confining yourself (by your own admission) to the MTO.

[makedonin]

Makedonin's first attempt at intellectual honesty! This is a cause for celebration

On the contrary Vangel, it is the first time that you was able to prove me wrong Still that small insignificant success does not lifts up the rest of the falsehood of the Bible.

So how about showing the same intellectual honesty and go on and do the same and refer to some of the other problems I have shown you here?

For example the "scientific foundation" of the Bible and the flat earth society that you belong to?

Here you are arguing in favor of the Bible that it knew that the Earth is not flat and that it was placed in void:

It wasn't the Church that developed the theory of a flat earth or the sun revolving around the earth, it was the scientists of the day. In fact, Isaiah 40:21-22, refers to the 'circle of the earth' and Job 26:7 refers to the earth as being suspended over empty space.

If you were clever enough you would have practice what you preach and seen that it is Job that was talking, not God as shown in context:

And Job answereth and saith: -- ...Stretching out the north over desolation, Hanging the earth upon nothing,
Job 26:1,7

BUT if you have read further, you would have seen that God has actually refuted Jobs argument by saying:

Then the LORD spoke to Job out of the storm. He said: “Who is this that obscures my plans with words without knowledge? Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me. “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, if you understand. ...
“Have you ever given orders to the morning, or shown the dawn its place, that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it? ...
“Have you entered the storehouses of the snow or seen the storehouses of the hail,[/B]
Job 38:1-4,12-13,22

So what is your take on the above, specially about the part where God refutes Job reasoning that the earth is placed in void: "it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it?"

Are you grown up enough to be intellectually honest about this one?

Now to the philosophical one:

God knows what people will do.

According to Paul, God not just knows what will people do, but he is the one who made them like that for his own purpose:

(1) Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[a] [B]Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

(2) What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[c]

(3) It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[d] Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

(4)One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[e] Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

(5) What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
Romans 9:11-24

Here we are dealing with justice and predestination. I will give my comments on the above which I numbered with in ().

(1) Here Paul informs us that God is electing between people and gives the example of the twins. He plainly said that before the twins were born and did not know any good or evil, God already had his favorite, and loved the other and hated the other.

(2) Paul already knows the reaction which he is to expect and tries to make a preemptive attack by asking the question "Is God unjust?". Afterwards he does not even try to answer the question but reiterates his previously statement by saying that this is how it is, and God have mercy on whom he choses to have mercy.

The absurdity and injustice of this claim is unbelievable stupid for a supposedly benevolent God.

(3) Than Paul goes on and kindly informs us that it does not depends on human desire and effort, which places a big question mark on the value of alleged "objective moral values" that are given to us by God!

Why having such morals when living according to them does not bring anything?

That is just another absurdity in this presented scenario!

Than he resorts to more absurdity and tells us the Old Testament story from Exodus about the Pharaoh and Moses. He kindly informs us that the Pharaoh was puppet in this play and that God hardened the heart of the Pharaoh (modern word would be manipulated) in purpose to show off his power.

The poor Pharaoh and Egyptians had so many loses including first born innocent children who were obviously a part of a puppeteers show.

Hip Hip hooray

There we go, where there is power there is no justice.

(4) Again Paul is going on with preemptive attack here and asks the question that he expects being asked: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” Question that is rightly asked!

His answer is typical apologists or church answer:

But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God?

What, is he fucking kidding me? If I am to be punished for done nothing wrong, just for the fun of God, and than I have no right to ask why?

But that is exactly what Paul tells us here, by making absurd comparison of dead insensible nature with intelligent sensitive beings, and goes on saying : Does the one which is made have the right to ask ‘Why did you make me like this?’”

It is like saying that your own children does not have any right to ask question when they are molested, beaten up or misused.

If we go by the book of Paul, we are not to ask questions about pederasty, children abuse etc etc. because the parents have the right to do anything they want.

After all they created the children!

Absurdity at it's best.

(5) Basically Paul is rounding up and says that those who are chosen for wrath and destruction i.e. eternal hell torment etc. etc. are made so as example for those who are chosen to live eternally.

The emphasis lies on chosen.

The above speaks only volumes about Gods justice and his predestination, choosing the one above the other, or better said, he pretreated them with the choice and predestined them for their purpose, eternal torment or eternal bliss.

In the Ephesians Paul is rounding up his predestinations doctrine and tells us that:

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. I[B]n love he[a] predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.
Ephesians 1:3-6

In other words, those who are chosen for damnations had no chance at all, cause they were not chosen before the creation of the world.

Both passages above demonstrate the rule:
Where there is a power there is no justice.

So to talk about the justice of God in the Bible is to talk about absurd things.

He made this world for his pleasure and chose his subordinates before even the world was created.

No justice there!

[makedonin]

The Problem with the Bible and it's alleged God inspiration is this:

Someone in the dark ages who was in the circles, say Kings circle, has written:

"Lo says thy God: Go and kill your enemy, smite all the infants and women but save the virgins for your self"

Here are the primnesses in the whole scenario:

(1) The alleged prophet who is speaking the alleged words of God is somehow meeting the expectation that his King had. He is doing this because he is having his own interest fulfilled by the King. Common human nature.

(2) The King likes what was allegedly said by God and finds justification of his previous intentions in them, i.e. to kill his enemies and get a virgin fuck, which was very common in dark ages.

(3)The only instance that vaguely refers to God is the so called "Lo here speaks thy God" reference.

So, (3) can't be proved to be real inspiration of God without postulating a presumptions or making a special plead.

Instead (3) can be proved to be a human tool to justify genocide and rape because (1) and (2) are more probable, attested in dark ages and evident in human nature, so they don't really need proof but can be attested in daily life.

[Michael]

On the contrary Vangel, it is the first time that you was able to prove me wrong

So how about showing the same intellectual honesty and go on and do the same and refer to some of the other problems I have shown you here?

For example the "scientific foundation" of the Bible and the flat earth society that you belong to?

Here you are arguing in favor of the Bible that it knew that the Earth is not flat and that it was placed in void:


If you were clever enough you would have practice what you preach and seen that it is Job that was talking, not God as shown in context:


BUT if you have read further, you would have seen that God has actually refuted Jobs argument by saying:


So what is your take on the above, specially about the part where God refutes Job reasoning that the earth is placed in void: "it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it?"

Makedonin with your Exegesis again..

He made this world for his pleasure and chose his subordinates before even the world was created.

No justice there!

The thread is about objective moral values, not the doctrine of predestination.
The funny thing is, even if your theology was true, it doesn't actually prove anything.. You're just telling us that don't like it.. That's not a good argument.. So you give us a sermon about your predestination doctrine and your theology. Next you proceed complain about it and tell us how much you don't like it. But if your so right about your theology, and its true, what does it matter if you dont like it?

[Vangelovski]

Makedonin,

I'll just have to stoop to your 'level'.

I found proof that atheism is false: 2+2=5

[Louis Riel]

You can 'attempt' to find a contradiction, but you won't. Makedonin has tried and was totally demonslished by a number of posters on the Hellenic Religion thread, which now he tries to ignore and is mostly repeating the same old falacious garbage to waste all of our time.

The 6th commandment is thou shalt not kill....what did Moses and the Levites do when he got down from that hill?

Being a polyist or animist is no better than being an atheist - they are still rejecting God.

Theyre not rejecting God/Gods....they simply had their own version,their own beliefs,that are no more right or wrong than yours....irregardless of what you believe.

I was refering to babies not having the intellectual maturity, but you are correct, some adults appear not to have it either

Are you taking a jab at me?Or is this your attempt at self deprication?

Justice requires punishment of evil - think about it.

That is only one aspect of it....and not the main one.I suggest you look up the definition of the word....and think about it.

Jesus took OUR punishment so that WE don't have to.

What good is his sacrifice if we're still going to be thrown into a lake of fire for our deeds and beliefs?I find it hard to believe that a child is born into sin,you can believe that....but i never will.

That is a JUST God not contradicting Himself and a God that LOVES us so much that He Himself took the punishment that we, a speck of dust in this universe, deserve.

You might deserve it...since thats what you believe.

Michael....

Louis, it comes down to this, it's Gods perogative, any assumption you make about Gods justice is a burden of proof you cannot carry, you are in no position to say that God couldn't have had morally sufficient reasons..

So what youre saying is that we shouldnt question anything....right?Everything done in the name of God was just and we should just leave it at that.

[Vangelovski]

What, is he fucking kidding me? If I am to be punished for done nothing wrong, just for the fun of God, and than I have no right to ask why?

How could you have done nothing wrong? By your own admission, you have broken the first four commandments.

At the end of the day, with all the irrelevant posts, stupid logic and completely unassociated/out of context Biblical passages you have posted, (and have proven nothing to the informed reader) its all about YOU telling us that you just don't like what you read in the Bible. I wonder how that will go down on the day of judgement...

[makedonin]

Makedonin with your Exegesis again..

And you having the proof to prove me wrong? Or you just going to dismiss it.

The flat earth society of the Bible is only part of the whole problem, since fundamentalist who are talking about the Bible being the personal mind of God who is to be the one who has to postulate objective morals.

In other words, science has proven this God that he had no Idea how the earth is, thus how we can believe him that he created the universe and that he is not wrong about the alleged objective morals he allegedly has to postulate?

The thread is about objective moral values, not the doctrine of predestination.
The funny thing is, even if your theology was true, it doesn't actually prove anything.. You're just telling us that don't like it.. That's not a good argument.. So you give us a sermon about your predestination doctrine and your theology. Next you proceed complain about it and tell us how much you don't like it. But if your so right about your theology, and its true, what does it matter if you dont like it?

Can you understand what it is said above? From your comment it appears to me you haven't understand.

Let me chew it for you!

The thread is about objective morals, with the underlining agenda that this objective morals are to be found in the Bible!

So justice that is postulated as objective moral is rendered invalid with the predestination doctrine found in the Bible!

If I like it or not is not the question, but rather if the God of the Bible is able to postulate any objective morals when he has his mind made up!

If he has already chosen who is to be rewarded and loved and who is to be damned and tormented, than there is no place for something like justice, which has to be allegedly postulated by him as objective moral!

Show me that I am wrong. I am waiting.

[Vangelovski]

The 6th commandment is thou shalt not kill....what did Moses and the Levites do when he got down from that hill?

Theyre not rejecting God/Gods....they simply had their own version,their own beliefs,that are no more right or wrong than yours....irregardless of what you believe.

Are you taking a jab at me?Or is this your attempt at self deprication?

That is only one aspect of it....and not the main one.I suggest you look up the definition of the word....and think about it.

What good is his sacrifice if we're still going to be thrown into a lake of fire for our deeds and beliefs?I find it hard to believe that a child is born into sin,you can believe that....but i never will.

You might deserve it...since thats what you believe.

Michael....

So what youre saying is that we shouldnt question anything....right?Everything done in the name of God was just and we should just leave it at that.

Do you understand the difference between killing and murder? We've been over it numerous times on this thread. Perhaps you should acquint yourself with what has already been written, rather than just coming in at the end and taking it from there.

You're talking about the Bible - the Bible tells us who God is and what he wants from us - having your own versions of God means to reject him because rather than following His law, you are making up your own.

Do you now accept that justice without punishment is meaningless?

If you believe in Jesus then you do not face any punishment because he took it for you. Its like someone going to jail on your behalf for crimes that you have committed. And that someone is God who created you and you are nothing but a speck of dust - why should he even care? He could destroy you in an instant, yet He went to the cross for you and you ask what good is that? Belief is a choice - its not something that you are ingrained with genetically and have no ability to change. You choose to either believe or disbelieve.

I think Michael was saying that you do not have all the information necessary to determine whether God's actions are just or not. Further, He determines what is just because He is justice and without him no such thing exists.

[Louis Riel]

This is the first of many videos that deal with this very subject.....

YouTube - Christopher Hitchens vs Turek 1 of 14

[Vangelovski]

Makedonin,

Who are the 'flat earth society'? Do they have a website? Are they taking new members?

3+3=8

[Vangelovski]

Louis, whats with the video - wasn't it you that claimed there is no evidence for either atheism or theism. According to you, neither this clip nor the evidence provided in them exist.

[makedonin]

How could you have done nothing wrong? By your own admission, you have broken the first four commandments.
.

How could I have broken anything when I don't know if it is true or not? And I certainly don't worship any God. It is rather obvious that it is a human creation than anything else!

I don't see anything broken there!

By the way which four you mean, the Traditional or the real Ten Commandments. They somehow differ, see for your self here: Exodus 20:3-18;Exodus 34:14-28

At the end of the day, with all the irrelevant posts, stupid logic and completely unassociated/out of context Biblical passages you have posted,

Vangelovski, you don't have the honesty to try and disprove anything I said, do I copy you right?

Before you say something like "unassociated/out of context Biblical passages you have posted" you would rather do it good if you were showing me how I did that in the case of predestination doctrine or the flat earth society! (what I would have expected is follow your example disproving Leviticus and the grasshoppers.)

Nothing new that I could expect from you.

and have proven nothing to the informed reader) its all about YOU telling us that you just don't like what you read in the Bible.

I suppose you are the "informed" reader here!

You haven't shown anything to pose as such.

As for me does not liking anything, honestly said I could really care less about what the Bible said, if there were no such as you to pretend that they know the personal mind of God!

I wonder how that will go down on the day of judgement...

If God is dishonest like you are, than he will judge my honest doubt with eternal torment.
That much is true.


But somehow reading the Bible closely, I get this idea that the Judgment day was expected in the first and second century AD, and did not come, so we can securely say it won't come, not like you expect it.

Makedonin,

Who are the 'flat earth society'? Do they have a website? Are they taking new members?

Vangel, don't pretend that you don't understand. Go and read my previous post and have the honesty to answer it, and not babble bullshit.

So I gave you the second chance, you refused to take it.

I really find you waste of time.

[Michael]

Can you understand what it is said above? From your comment it appears to me you haven't understand.

Let me chew it for you!

The thread is about objective morals, with the underlining agenda that this objective morals are to be found in the Bible!

So justice that is postulated as objective moral is rendered invalid with the predestination doctrine found in the Bible!

If I like it or not is not the question, but rather if the God of the Bible is able to postulate any objective morals when he has his mind made up!

If he has already chosen who is to be rewarded and loved and who is to be damned and tormented, than there is no place for something like justice, which has to be allegedly postulated by him as objective moral!

Show me that I am wrong. I am waiting.

What you need to first understand is that the predestination doctrine is not central to the existance of objective moral values, God or even to the truth of Christianity. Lets suppose your version of the predestination doctrine is true, what follows? Well, it follows that God exists, the bible is true, your doctrine is true, you just dont like it! Further, not all christians subscribe to the doctrine of predestination.. There are other interpretations such as molinism.

[Vangelovski]

Makedonin,

Trawl back over the hellenic religion thread where you idiocy was dealt with by not just me, but a few other posters as well. Pretending it never happened and then spamming this thread with the same stupidity is just...well, stupid!

Just because you subjectively believe you have not broken the commandments, that does not mean that you have not. It is only your opinion. That would not even work in a court of law, because a court uses objective moral values and does not determine your guilt or innocence based on your subjective moral values or even wether you knew what you did was illegal or not.