Objective Moral Values

[osiris]

Rtg I am on the smug right now its the only way I can handle the smog. A few posts ago you asked if god the Judeo christian one changes his mind did you mean changes values and why would an all powerful all knowing perfect deity need to do that
I thought it was a good question and hoped someone would explain it to me.

[Vangelovski]

Only a foolish man would make such a claim about science being able to prove "everything" but its theories are open for everyone to question, qualify and quantify...but they will remain theories until proven otherwise, that's the beauty of science it can stand on its own two feet and be challenged, slowly unlocking the secrets of the universe, one by one...
Is this what the "Intelligent Design" proponents fear, that science could one day prove 'everything'...where the God industry becomes obsolete and redundent...?

I'm just trying to keep an open mind...

Now you're starting to sound like you've come from the latest gathering of the 'Earth is Flat' society...the speed of light has been proven and its speed determined as recently as the 1980's...as technology improves i.e. facilities like CERN, the calibration will improve and tolerance for error will diminish even further...

Christianity is challenged everyday and more than any other belief system, includng atheism. To say that its afraid of being challenged when that is exactly what has been happening in this thread and the Hellenic Religion thread on this forum alone is quite disengenious.

As to the question on the speed of light, I think you should look into that a little deeper. It remains an assumption. Even Atkins, one of your leading atheists AND a well renouned scientist agrees with that fact.

[Vangelovski]

Rtg I am on the smug right now its the only way I can handle the smog. A few posts ago you asked if god the Judeo christian one changes his mind did you mean changes values and why would an all powerful all knowing perfect deity need to do that
I thought it was a good question and hoped someone would explain it to me.

Osiris, why are you shying away from positively defending atheism?

[osiris]

Because I can't be bothered explaining the obvious and some people can't handle the truth

[Vangelovski]

Because I can't be bothered explaining the obvious and some people can't handle the truth

Sounds more like you prefer to make uninformed commentary. If you can't be bothered explaining the "obvious" what are you doing on this thread?

[osiris]

You can't help yourself can you fighting for gods truth you make me smile evangelovski but its not gonna get you into paradise that's reserved for Islamists

[Phoenix]

Hahahahaha ...Phoenix for example, although an atheist, is probably one of the most patriotic Macedonians I've seen and highly intelligent in matters pertaining to the cause.

You know what TV, on first reading I thought I liked what you wrote and then I began questioning the numerous caveats you placed on your statement...

[Vangelovski]

You know what TV, on first reading I thought I liked what you wrote and then I began questioning the numerous caveats you placed on your statement...

I didn't mean to put any caveats in.

How about highly intelligent full stop

[julie]

One can be Macedonian without being Macedonian Orthodox, am sure many Macedonians see the Macedonian orthodox faith being synonymous with being a Macedonian, identifying with cultural aspects rather than religious, I understand where Osiris and Phoenix are , it does not make one less of a patriot for the Macedonian cause if they don't suscribe to the religious aspect

[Phoenix]

One can be Macedonian without being Macedonian Orthodox, am sure many Macedonians see the Macedonian orthodox faith being synonymous with being a Macedonian, identifying with cultural aspects rather than religious, I understand where Osiris and Phoenix are , it does not make one less of a patriot for the Macedonian cause if they don't suscribe to the religious aspect

Julie, just a point of clarification...

TV is the one that called me an atheist, I've never made that claim.

Mr TV sets the bar very high for inclusion, I just hope the main man is more inclusive and tolerant...

[osiris]

The ancient Macedonians were not christians nor atheists

[Mikail]

I'd say the main man is far more tolerant Phoenix. It is those who blindly follow organised religion who set bar levels of inclusion and exclusion.

To inquisitively question makes one an Atheist? How bizarre!

Vangelovski, I'm not confused. I have my faith and it's mine. I know when someone trys to preach their "brand" of Christianity.

Orthodoxy is ingrained in our history, our culture. Do we believe? Sure we do, but not to the level you do. So does this make us not worthy? No!

Do not confuse being moral and being Christian! History tells us some pretty immoral acts have been done in the name of the lord.

[osiris]

What about delchev I am not sure if he was orthodox and by far the greatest indigineous religious movement in Macedonia the bogomils were totally opposed to orthodoxy
I am very uncomfortable when people adopt and defend something cultural on the basis that its been a part of our past. Somethings from our past are in my opinion not worth preserving orthodoxy is one of the. Our commitment to our faith so called cost us dearly and its the orthodox church that began the division of our people in the late 19th century. Orthodoxy is not our religion its the religion of the eastern roman empire and introduced into Macedonia during the early part of the christian era I don't think our ancient ancestors all jumped into it wholeheartdly I think it was imposed upon most of the ancient Macedonians after Constantine made it the official religion of the Roman empire. If vangelovski or petar are any indication of the christian spirit I dare say it would have been an unpleasant and often brutal conversion to Christianity . Shouldn't we as modern people aspiring historians and patriots be a litle more critical in our support for a religion in the main alien to our ancient culture and forced upon the majority of our people in both ancient and medieval times.

[Mikail]

You raise some valid points Osiris.

[osiris]

Thanks nashio just trying to stretch the parameters a little and to point that human culture including ours is dynamic and fluid not eternally static. If our modern church was serious about protecting our integrity and independence they would have broken from the orthodox a long time ago. Orthodoxy has been a negative and destructive force in our modern history instead of fraternal support we got oppression and assimilation . The bugaromani and grkomani were created by orthodoxy not by atheism . I wonder if our political situation would have been different if our church had become Unitarian