Macedonia and Greece will meet in EuroBasket 2011

[Risto the Great]

Daniel, "sensible" is changing your name to avoid a fight.
You know ... walk away from trouble, we know what we are anyway etc.
But sometimes you need to make a stand in life or else have regrets that may haunt you forever.

For anyone except Macedonians, there is nothing "sensible" about Macedonians standing up for their rights. If Macedonians can't do it, nobody else will encourage them to do it.

[Daniel the Great]

Daniel, "sensible" is changing your name to avoid a fight.

That's not sensible, unless you think it makes sense to change our name.

What i meant by Sensible, is " Chosen in accordance with wisdom or prudence; likely to be of benefit:

Changing name is not to be of benefit for us.
But alienating Macedonians by "Ridiculing", Is that Sensible (likely to be of benefit)?

Look around MTO threads and honestly answer.

[George S.]

I f we have to know greece only want's to destroy macedonia.Let's stop kidding ourselves if we capitulate to change our name then it makes it easy for greece to monopolise the name.
Greece does not want another macedonia to exist that's why it wants a name change.Greece is not giving anything in return its only us changing our name.

[Pelister]

Phoenix is right. Given that the position of our enemies is that we are not Macedonians (very simple), and that we never were the only 'sensible' position, the only reasonable position is to reject it. Otherwise we are worse than slaves, we are morally bankrupt - a group of spineless worms grovelling like cowards to institutions like the E.U who by the way have a policy of exterminating us. What we are seeing from Gruevski and UMD to some extent, is not 'sensible', it is not even 'civilized' - it is entirely irrational. The idea that what is happening now is 'normal' is part of the problem. I have heard UMD try to make the case that the negoatitions prove that we are more civilized than the New Greeks. This is one of the more dangerous pieces of UMD propoganda going around. The position that we are not Macedonians, and that the New Greeks are the real Macedonians, offends me completely; how could Gruevski even assume that the New Greeks have a valid claim to our name. The negotiations have turned us into the laughing stock of the world.

[lavce pelagonski]

Vlado Ilievski: "A small country can do wonders if the heart is big" - YouTube

[lavce pelagonski]

[Risto the Great]

That's not sensible, unless you think it makes sense to change our name.

What i meant by Sensible, is " Chosen in accordance with wisdom or prudence; likely to be of benefit:

Changing name is not to be of benefit for us.
But alienating Macedonians by "Ridiculing", Is that Sensible (likely to be of benefit)?

Look around MTO threads and honestly answer.

Everyone in the world thought it was sensible for Macedonia to change its name. Macedonia changed its name to FYROM as a result of this "sensibility". In fact being "sensible" and changing the name to FYROM was sold as "likely to be of benefit". It was likely to be of benefit because Macedonia was being threatened with exclusion from organisations that "were or are likely to be of benefit".

I think many Macedonians need to be challenged because there is a mentality that prevails in many communities where being Macedonian can be mutually exclusive from actions that affirm the Macedonian identity. If affirming the Macedonian identity includes supporting the ventilator and FYROM then stick a fork in me .... I'm done.

[RitaC]

I know this is a photoshop, but Bo receiving citizenship like he did cheapens the concept of Macedonianism.

He has zero connection to the country and merely did it so his club side could have an extra spot on its roster for a non-european. Foreign sports people obtaining Australian citizenship have to at least satisfy residency requirements.

I wonder how easy it would for an Aegean to obtain Macedonian citizenship???

[Risto the Great]

I know this is a photoshop, but Bo receiving citizenship like he did cheapens the concept of Macedonianism.

Agreed.
He is Macedonian but ethnic Albanians don't have a chance. That is odd isn't it.

[Jankovska]

I saw an article the other day that says it all- The Macedonians are scoring points, the rest of the world is reading geography and history. Talk about great advertising and getting people interested in where we are and who we are. Once again well done to the boys, off to support them in the pub today.
I would also like to add the guy in the video when security were trying to take our flag off is my school friend and he has done more for Macedonia than many people have. He may have travelled under the 'ventilator' but when he got there he delivered a message, stronger than anyone elses before.He has been from Palanka to China and the US advertising Macedonia. To have people like Vangelovski call him a traitor just because he carries the present flag is unacceptable.

[Vangelovski]

I saw an article the other day that says it all- The Macedonians are scoring points, the rest of the world is reading geography and history. Talk about great advertising and getting people interested in where we are and who we are. Once again well done to the boys, off to support them in the pub today.
I would also like to add the guy in the video when security were trying to take our flag off is my school friend and he has done more for Macedonia than many people have. He may have travelled under the 'ventilator' but when he got there he delivered a message, stronger than anyone elses before.He has been from Palanka to China and the US advertising Macedonia. To have people like Vangelovski call him a traitor just because he carries the present flag is unacceptable.

You're unacceptable. I'm not sure what it is you don't understand. Greece forced us to change our flag. Now you think that the forced flag, which basically means Greece controls us, is something good. Somehow you think black is white, up is down and back is forward. TELL us WHY you think its fine to have a flag that Greece forced us to have? Tell us WHY you think Macedonians should be proud about the fact that Greece forced us to change our flag.

Even when your back is been whipped your selling it like a victory! Good little slave girl.

[Vangelovski]

Dear MTO Members,

I would like to apologise to Bill77 for calling him a number of names in a post that I have now withdrawn. Bill77 did not deserve those terms used against him. I thank a younger and much wiser man for pointing that out to me. He know's who he is.

But I maintain that the FYROM terminology and the ventilator are TREASONOUS and should be shunned by all Macedonians at all times. Granted, many people have not come to that realisation, but they NEVER will unless they have it explained to them for what it is - TREASON. No sugar coating, no sunshine and no roses.

Further, I call on Bill77, if he has the moral courage, to point out exactly WHERE and WHEN I called any "teenagers" traitors.

Finally, I would like to point out that I have made numerous personal sacrifices toward my own academic career by boycotting and/or making blatant political statements at conferences, seminars and publication opportunities which insisted on referring to Macedonia as FYROM or used any other anti-Macedonian propaganda. I don't think its a big ask or a personal sacrifice of any form to expect Macedonians NOT to use or promote the ventilator or the FYROM terminology in anyway, shape or form.

You will never hear about any of these instances unless you actually come to watch me speak, only because I don't put our a PR every time I fart, like UMD does. But if you are looking for "good news stories", then you may want to visit their website. Those of you that support the ventilator and the FYROM terminology (you know who you are) will find great comfort there.

[Jankovska]

You're unacceptable. I'm not sure what it is you don't understand. Greece forced us to change our flag. Now you think that the forced flag, which basically means Greece controls us, is something good. Somehow you think black is white, up is down and back is forward. TELL us WHY you think its fine to have a flag that Greece forced us to have? Tell us WHY you think Macedonians should be proud about the fact that Greece forced us to change our flag.

Even when your back is been whipped your selling it like a victory! Good little slave girl.

I never said it was good you idiot but it is something we work with to get to our aim. If the Macedonians didn't use the official flag that is now they won't be able to play therefore no advertising for us. Using the flag is not what we want but at the moment it's what we have to work with. It is not Antic fault or Ilievski or any of the players for the flag and they should not stop doing what they love because some fucker accepted this flag. The boys have done us great advertising, more than you ever have and you can bang on as much as you like I will support them. As I said you contribute towards a country that recognizes Macedonia and the flag you hate some much as the official flag, why do you do that? Is it because lit's your only option to carry on fighting and spreading the truth or is it because you are a plonker with double standards. I'd like to think the first.
This basketball has opened the eyes of people who have never heard or cared to hear about Macedonia, has helped people log on the net and start reading of what our country has been put through and has suffered in the hands of the Greeks, to me that is victory.
So yes no one likes the fact that we have to carry the present flag but we are working with whatever we have to push the Macedonian name ahead. And FYI you should watch some of the games with the American and the British commentators and see how much they supported Macedonia, how much the screamed our real name and wanted us to win. In the UK they even run a bit of background history about the little country that has been tortured and mistreated for centuries. Is that victory? Me thinks, yes. You need to open the eyes of the world one way or another to get to your aim. There are always more way to get to result than one and I don't care which we use as long as we get there.
The fact that I had many people ask me about Macedonia after this basketball has made me proud and helped me tell the story. No one says it's fair but sometimes you make make the negative work in your favour.
If you think I am a slave girl than you are again an idiot, I think I am one of the most stubborn opinionated people and that is why I will never agree with you, ever. You are to strong headed but stuck in your ways. Who cares keep that way, your life your choice, just dont expect everyone else to think like you because it is not going to happen.

[Risto the Great]

Imagine if the basketball team wore black sticky tape over their ventilators on their uniforms. Wow ... I would have been the first person to start a thread and quite frankly would have made it my mission to secure their financial prosperity.

[Vangelovski]

What are they "advertising"? That we will accept foreign countries dictating our lives? What are we advertising? Don't you think it would have been a much better advertisement if our players ripped the ventilator off their shirts and played like that? Don't you think it would have been an even bigger advertisement if they stood on court and refused to play?